A 10-year-long journey

[Kai Ryu]

Hello Everyone,

My name's Martin, a.k.a. Kai Ryu as my former Zen Master chose to call me during my Boddhisattva ceremony. Jhananda encouraged me to leave a message on the forum to let you know that I have joined and to share my experience.

I think that a good way of doing this would be to post the questions that I addressed to him. This will give you an idea of who I am and what my interests are in the practice.

1) First of all, I am writing to you because I have a question regarding the importance of jhanas on the (Buddhist) path to enlightenment. I am willing to accept that sati is meditation according to the buddha (cf satipattyana sutta) and that samasamadhi is the result or fruit of this right meditation. But if jhanas are the gateways to nibbana, then why did the Buddha initially reject the teachings of his former teachers who taught him how to experience the immaterial absorptions? More troubling, why would he suddenly remember jhanas under the bhodi tree if he already had mastered them with his former teachers? And lastly, why were his former teachers quite clearly defined as not enlightened if they had such extensive mastery of the states of absorption?
I feel these issues are essential because they form the basis of most rejections of the jhanas as leading to enlightenment. People argue that the Buddha clearly rejected them when he left his former masters. Of course, he still recognised their value, as the suttas exemplify, but he did not bilieve they lead to nibbana. (This is not my opinion, I am paraphrasing  common objections).

2) I unfortunately must agree with you regarding the knowledge and experience of many so-called Buddhist masters and teachers. In fact, I experienced it first hand on many occasions.  I was lucky enough to come across the satipatthana sutta first, even before really knowing anything about buddhism. I stumbled upon it while reading about astral projection. It resonated with me immediately. As the Buddha states that it is the direct path, I naively thought that all Buddhists must know it and practice it all day long diligently. But no one at the zen dojo where I eventually started to practice meditation knew about it. This is when I started to get some serious concerns about their  knowledge.

3) I thought I had experienced jhanas for sure, until I read ajahn Brahm's book. I know you strongly disagree with him but it still confuses me. In my own practice, I get to a point where I start to feel a really pleasant sensation in my body. It feels like an energy going up to my head. Although I am perfectly still, it feels like I am smiling and radiating joy. Sometimes, it is so powerful that it makes me want to cry. But if I start to analyse it, then it is gone. Would this be the first jhana?

4) Regarding the dark night of the soul, is it possible that contemplation would cause hallucinations in daily life? One day, I was waiting outside of a class, when my vision got distorted. My friends' bodies were stretched upward and I lost touch with reality. It was profoundly scary. At the time, I was practicing the satipatthana as much as possible. It was very traumatising and it took me a long time to get over it and resume my practice. I would relive it (less powerfully) regularly until I backed off from meditation. I thought I had lost my mind.

5) Something else that happens when I increase my practice is that at night when I go to sleep, it sometimes happens that I see through my eyelids. Sometimes, i am seeing things and then I realise that my eyelids were actually closed and it brings me back to reality. It feels so real. Once, I was checking the time on my phone and then realised that not only were my eyes closed but I had nothing in my hands. It felt so real, though, that I immediately checked the time on my phone which was next to my bed. The time matched exactly. It was very disturbing. What is the meaning of this do you think?

6) Lastly, what meditation technique do you recommend most? I am most familiar with the zen approach of focusing both on the breath and the body. But some masters such as A. Brahm confused me by saying that you should never "follow the breath inside" and only stay with the nostrils. What do you think?

I think that these questions and concerns will already tell you about myself but I will also add a summary of my contemplative practice.

I first got interested in meditation at the age of 17. At the time, a friend recommended a novel about people who explore what happens after death. It was a mix of Christianity, Astral projection, Buddhism and Ancient Egyptian beliefs mixed into an interesting story. This led me to read about astral projection and lucid dreaming. I very quickly experienced lucid dreams, but never consistantly, probably due to a lack of interest. I never really experienced full-fledged astral projections, although many later experiences might be associated with it.

The reason why I didn't persue these practices more is because I quickly stumbled across a book call "Awakening according to Tchan" (L'éveil selon le Tchan) that completely blew my mind. It was a very practical book on Satipatthana that advised strong mindfulness throughout the whole day. I started practicing it immediately and lost all interest in astral projection and lucid dreaming, although I did continue to experience lucid dreams intermitently.

This happened during my last school year and upon starting university, I immediately joined the only Buddhist community in my city, which happened to be in the Soto Zen tradition. I had no prior knowledge of zen and no interest in it, I just wanted to practice meditation. I went to the dojo three times a week for two years and did daily meditations together with a strong emphasis on mindfulness throughout the day. After a year, I ordained as a Bodhisattva, as my dedication to the practice was extreme. I saw it more as taking refuge than anything else, because even then I had already issues with the whole bodhisattva notion.

Then, with time, I steadily started to experience what I would later call "the Dark Night" (of the soul) more and more. The problem was that I had no idea that anything "bad" could happen as a result of meditation and as I was engaged in hardcore practice by lay standards, I experienced it with force. These bad experiences ultimately culminated in my lowest point, which also coincides with a bad trip while smoking weed. I would very rarely indulge in it, as my focus was on meditation and not partying, but I would very occasionaly smoke with friends. That day, the high turned into a very very bad trip and I hallucinated and saw my whole world collapse around me. All images were being distorted, as if my eyes were experiencing bad computer lags or freezes. With hindsight, I think that it was probably caused by both the meditation, the weed and tiredness from lack of sleep the night before. It was a bad cocktail.

This traumatic experience fueled the already traumatising Dark Night I was experiencing as a result of meditation alone. I felt like I had lost touch with reality. I no longer identitified with my ego, it felt like I was a broken mirror held together by sticky tape. This led to some very active self questioning. Eventually, I could no longer tolerate what I saw as "BS" in zen (bodhisattva ideal and other things I strongly disagree with) and I decided to go to a retreat in a Theravada monastery.

I fasted there for eleven days while meditating. My mindset was that i would "heal" myself of my issues or die. As you can imagine, this intense practice in a fasted state only fueled my Dark Night symptoms and I could probably have been put in a mental institution and fit in there nicely. Fortunately for my health, my family managed to get a hold of me and convinced me for their sake to break my fast (weighing 58kg as opposed to 78 normally for 1m81). I was a mess, honestly, both mentally and physically.

After that, I stepped back from meditation. I was too lost and didn't know what I wanted and how to attain it. As I abstained from meditation, I started to feel more and more like my former self, although I was still plagued by occasional flashbacks of the visual hallucinations I experienced at my lowest point and some pretty severe moments of depression and anxiety. The problem was that I could never really completely let go of my habit of focusing on my body and feelings throughout the day and letting go of my thoughts. I did it less but still a little and it might have contributed to these symptoms never really leaving me altogether.

A couple of years later, I came across daniel Ingram's book "Mastering the Core teachings of the Buddha". This is were I heard for the first time that meditation could lead to what conventional people would call strong negative effects. They are in fact to be expected and I realised I had been cycling through all these experiences for years. Going from extatic moments to fear, anxiety, depression and hallucinations. Knowing what had happened to me was a huge help because I started to fear it less and less.

Still, it took me another two or three more years to start practicing regularly again. But eventually, a little over two years ago, I started to meditate again. In a first phase, I was very influenced by Mahasi Sayadaw's teachings on insight practice, but I eventually got disillusioned with it as well. Then, my attention and interest switched to jhanas. After reading several books, I eventually stumbled upon Jhananda's videos on Youtube and watched every single one of them on the contemplative life (pretty much), until I decided to contact him.

This is where I am now, focusing on Jhana's during 30min meditation sessions. By the way, I am now 27 years old now (28 in March), and I a married man with a lovely 10-month-old daughter. This is a pretty long post so thank you if you are still reading these last few lines :-).

Best wishes,

Martin

[Jhanananda]

Hello Everyone,

My name's Martin, a.k.a. Kai Ryu as my former Zen Master chose to call me during my Boddhisattva ceremony. Jhananda encouraged me to leave a message on the forum to let you know that I have joined and to share my experience.

Welcome, Martin, a.k.a. Kai Ryu.  I am glad to see you posted your story here.  Please note that I moved it to our section on case histories, where it can be easily found by those who are having similar experiences to the rest of us.

I think that a good way of doing this would be to post the questions that I addressed to him. This will give you an idea of who I am and what my interests are in the practice.

1) First of all, I am writing to you because I have a question regarding the importance of jhanas on the (Buddhist) path to enlightenment. I am willing to accept that sati is meditation according to the buddha (cf satipattyana sutta) and that samasamadhi is the result or fruit of this right meditation. But if jhanas are the gateways to nibbana, then why did the Buddha initially reject the teachings of his former teachers who taught him how to experience the immaterial absorptions? More troubling, why would he suddenly remember jhanas under the bhodi tree if he already had mastered them with his former teachers? And lastly, why were his former teachers quite clearly defined as not enlightened if they had such extensive mastery of the states of absorption?

I feel these issues are essential because they form the basis of most rejections of the jhanas as leading to enlightenment. People argue that the Buddha clearly rejected them when he left his former masters. Of course, he still recognised their value, as the suttas exemplify, but he did not bilieve they lead to nibbana. (This is not my opinion, I am paraphrasing  common objections).

Many of those who end up joining the GWV start with this question. So, you will have to realize that we have covered this material in spades, but I will briefly give you the basics here for your benefit.

1] Correct samma-sati is the correct practice of meditation, and self-awareness; and is the 7th fold of the Noble Eightfold Path.  There are 4 key suttas that cover the correct practice of meditation (samma-sati).  You may find reading these suttas in English translation useful. They are as follows with links:

Anapanasati Sutta (MN 118) “Mindfulness of the breath”

Kayagata-sati Sutta (MN 119) “Mindfulness of the Body”

Satipatthana Sutta (MN 10) “the Four Paths of Mindfulness”

Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22), “Larger Discourse on the Four Paths of Mindfulness”

2] To specifically answer your question as to how jhana figures into the eight fold of the Noble Eightfold Path (samma-samadhi) you will find the Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22), “Larger Discourse on the Four Paths of Mindfulness” specifically defines samma-samadhi in terms of the 4 jhanas.

3] In various suttas, especially MN-26 and MN-36, where the Buddha’s path to enlightenment is revealed, and where he rejects what he learned from his two previous teachers, we find that there are actually 8 stages of samadhi defined, and none of them are rejected.  He simply pointed out that the 4 jhanas were critical for liberation from suffering (dukkha), which is what the 4 Noble Truths is all about.

4] However, in those suttas, Siddhartha Gautama did not reject the 4 upper levels of samadhi, which by the way he did not call ‘jhana.’  He called them by a common suffix, which was ‘ayatana.’ 

5] As above, he did not master the 4 jhanas under his previous teachers.  It was in reviewing his experiences with samadhi that he realized that the 4 jhanas were so important.

6]  The reason why his previous teachers were not enlightened is because they had focused upon the immaterial attainments of the 4 ayatanas, and had overlooked the critical developmental stage of the 4 jhanas.

I recommend that you study the suttas, and I am confident when you do so you too will realize most of the people who have become famous in Buddhism have an undeserved reputation.

You can start with the TIPITAKA

2) I unfortunately must agree with you regarding the knowledge and experience of many so-called Buddhist masters and teachers. In fact, I experienced it first hand on many occasions.  I was lucky enough to come across the satipatthana sutta first, even before really knowing anything about buddhism. I stumbled upon it while reading about astral projection. It resonated with me immediately. As the Buddha states that it is the direct path, I naively thought that all Buddhists must know it and practice it all day long diligently. But no one at the zen dojo where I eventually started to practice meditation knew about it. This is when I started to get some serious concerns about their knowledge.

Yes, sad, but true, I found most people claiming to be knowledgeable regardng the Buddha dhamma have never read any of the suttas.  This should tell one it is time to leave.

Also, as pathetic as it might sound, it is also common practice for local practice centers to be owned and operated by a single guy, who also has a hot tub, and he invites single attractive women, who show up for the meditations, to soak in his hot tub with him.  This should serve as another indicator when it is time to leave.

3) I thought I had experienced jhanas for sure, until I read ajahn Brahm's book. I know you strongly disagree with him but it still confuses me. In my own practice, I get to a point where I start to feel a really pleasant sensation in my body. It feels like an energy going up to my head. Although I am perfectly still, it feels like I am smiling and radiating joy. Sometimes, it is so powerful that it makes me want to cry. But if I start to analyse it, then it is gone. Would this be the first jhana?

Sadly, anyone with the money can publish any nonsense he wants to, and claim whatever he wants.  So, we all have to learn to read critically, and think critically.

Yes, it does sound like you have had the experience of the first jhana.   Now the challenge is to see if you can consistently meditate at that level, then move to deeper levels.  The next level of deep meditation is the stilling of the mind.

4) Regarding the dark night of the soul, is it possible that contemplation would cause hallucinations in daily life? One day, I was waiting outside of a class, when my vision got distorted. My friends' bodies were stretched upward and I lost touch with reality. It was profoundly scary. At the time, I was practicing the satipatthana as much as possible. It was very traumatising and it took me a long time to get over it and resume my practice. I would relive it (less powerfully) regularly until I backed off from meditation. I thought I had lost my mind.

5) Something else that happens when I increase my practice is that at night when I go to sleep, it sometimes happens that I see through my eyelids. Sometimes, i am seeing things and then I realise that my eyelids were actually closed and it brings me back to reality. It feels so real. Once, I was checking the time on my phone and then realised that not only were my eyes closed but I had nothing in my hands. It felt so real, though, that I immediately checked the time on my phone which was next to my bed. The time matched exactly. It was very disturbing. What is the meaning of this do you think?

These are common charisms that people who have learned to meditate deeply develop.  These are precisely what we discuss here on this forum. While they may seem strange they are our very journey to nibanna.

6) Lastly, what meditation technique do you recommend most? I am most familiar with the zen approach of focusing both on the breath and the body. But some masters such as A. Brahm confused me by saying that you should never "follow the breath inside" and only stay with the nostrils. What do you think?

I am OK with either focusing both on the breath and the body, or just on the nostrils.  The important thing to get is stilling of the mind is a critical skill to develop, and when you have it, then you will have not require a meditation object, other than what arises in your deep meditation.

I think that these questions and concerns will already tell you about myself but I will also add a summary of my contemplative practice.

I first got interested in meditation at the age of 17. At the time, a friend recommended a novel about people who explore what happens after death. It was a mix of Christianity, Astral projection, Buddhism and Ancient Egyptian beliefs mixed into an interesting story. This led me to read about astral projection and lucid dreaming. I very quickly experienced lucid dreams, but never consistantly, probably due to a lack of interest. I never really experienced full-fledged astral projections, although many later experiences might be associated with it.

The reason why I didn't persue these practices more is because I quickly stumbled across a book call "Awakening according to Tchan" (L'éveil selon le Tchan) that completely blew my mind. It was a very practical book on Satipatthana that advised strong mindfulness throughout the whole day. I started practicing it immediately and lost all interest in astral projection and lucid dreaming, although I did continue to experience lucid dreams intermitently.

Yes, we here find strong mindfulness throughout the whole day bares much superior fruit (maha-phala).  We find astral projection and lucid dreaming are just some of the superior fruit (maha-phala) that we here experience, and discuss; however, we do not necessarily pursue them directly.  We just attend to mindful self-awareness, 24/7.

This happened during my last school year and upon starting university, I immediately joined the only Buddhist community in my city, which happened to be in the Soto Zen tradition. I had no prior knowledge of zen and no interest in it, I just wanted to practice meditation. I went to the dojo three times a week for two years and did daily meditations together with a strong emphasis on mindfulness throughout the day. After a year, I ordained as a Bodhisattva, as my dedication to the practice was extreme. I saw it more as taking refuge than anything else, because even then I had already issues with the whole bodhisattva notion.

Then, with time, I steadily started to experience what I would later call "the Dark Night" (of the soul) more and more. The problem was that I had no idea that anything "bad" could happen as a result of meditation and as I was engaged in hardcore practice by lay standards, I experienced it with force. These bad experiences ultimately culminated in my lowest point, which also coincides with a bad trip while smoking weed. I would very rarely indulge in it, as my focus was on meditation and not partying, but I would very occasionaly smoke with friends. That day, the high turned into a very very bad trip and I hallucinated and saw my whole world collapse around me. All images were being distorted, as if my eyes were experiencing bad computer lags or freezes. With hindsight, I think that it was probably caused by both the meditation, the weed and tiredness from lack of sleep the night before. It was a bad cocktail.

This traumatic experience fueled the already traumatising Dark Night I was experiencing as a result of meditation alone. I felt like I had lost touch with reality. I no longer identitified with my ego, it felt like I was a broken mirror held together by sticky tape. This led to some very active self questioning. Eventually, I could no longer tolerate what I saw as "BS" in zen (bodhisattva ideal and other things I strongly disagree with) and I decided to go to a retreat in a Theravada monastery.

I fasted there for eleven days while meditating. My mindset was that i would "heal" myself of my issues or die. As you can imagine, this intense practice in a fasted state only fueled my Dark Night symptoms and I could probably have been put in a mental institution and fit in there nicely. Fortunately for my health, my family managed to get a hold of me and convinced me for their sake to break my fast (weighing 58kg as opposed to 78 normally for 1m81). I was a mess, honestly, both mentally and physically.

After that, I stepped back from meditation. I was too lost and didn't know what I wanted and how to attain it. As I abstained from meditation, I started to feel more and more like my former self, although I was still plagued by occasional flashbacks of the visual hallucinations I experienced at my lowest point and some pretty severe moments of depression and anxiety. The problem was that I could never really completely let go of my habit of focusing on my body and feelings throughout the day and letting go of my thoughts. I did it less but still a little and it might have contributed to these symptoms never really leaving me altogether.

A couple of years later, I came across daniel Ingram's book "Mastering the Core teachings of the Buddha". This is were I heard for the first time that meditation could lead to what conventional people would call strong negative effects. They are in fact to be expected and I realised I had been cycling through all these experiences for years. Going from extatic moments to fear, anxiety, depression and hallucinations. Knowing what had happened to me was a huge help because I started to fear it less and less.

Still, it took me another two or three more years to start practicing regularly again. But eventually, a little over two years ago, I started to meditate again. In a first phase, I was very influenced by Mahasi Sayadaw's teachings on insight practice, but I eventually got disillusioned with it as well. Then, my attention and interest switched to jhanas. After reading several books, I eventually stumbled upon Jhananda's videos on Youtube and watched every single one of them on the contemplative life (pretty much), until I decided to contact him.

This is where I am now, focusing on Jhana's during 30min meditation sessions. By the way, I am now 27 years old now (28 in March), and I a married man with a lovely 10-month-old daughter. This is a pretty long post so thank you if you are still reading these last few lines :-).

Best wishes,

Martin

You have found the right place.  So, look around, and make yourself comfortable.  We have already covered many topics that you will find relevant to your journey.

[Kai Ryu]

Than you for your kind words. I'll go through the forum in my free time for sure! It is always reassuring to hear that such experiences are normal and to be expected. I just cannot understand why no one talked about it at my dojo. The disturbing part is that they even sold the opposite: how zazen would have positive outcomes. I have the opposite attitude nowadays with people who wish to discuss meditation with me (very few indeed as you can imagine). I always start by being honest and saying that it is my strong believe based on direct experience that meditation according to the Buddha is a powerful tool that can lead to both heavenly and hellish experiences. I tell them that I encourage them to practice but that they must be ready to face hardships.

One question which I didn't mention is the relationship between the culmination of the path in jhana and the experience of nibbana. How do you define nibbana? Is it suddenly experienced while in jhana? If so must it be 4th jhana? I have read so many different interpretations that I quite literally don't know what it is supposed to be. The one definition I found most useful describes nibbana as cessation. It would be the experience of lack of experience, but this would apparently not be emptiness or nothingness. It would seem that when phenomena do not arise, then something does take its place which is nibbana and cannot be described. Many people who adhere to this description link their experience to a kind of momentary loss of consciousness but which they recognised as the ultimate truth or something like this. It's confusing. I have had such brief loss of consciousness in my practice and do not feel liberated in the slightest, as my background story makes abundantly clear...

[bodhimind]

That's really the case for many practices out there, not only Zen. I've seen exactly the same at monasteries, popular teachings, meditation retreats, classes, etc. I do believe there are genuine mystics within these places since they are supposed to support a contemplative lifestyle, but the bigger question is: Are the people learning from these people attained, or do they practice what these genuine mystics teach? Students may not necessarily have the same attainment as the master as well. And i think mystics who really live such a lifestyle are very, very rare.

I know a mystic who started off with Zazen as well, and these techniques like Jhanananda said, brings people through the different stages of jhana, even if they don't realize it. Like the stilling of the mind, etc. I think many people do reach the first or second jhana but have no idea how to interpret them, and do not even realize they are experiencing them. But what matters is how to sustain them and go even deeper.

I find the challenge personally, to be in how I can shape my lifestyle to support my contemplative practice. It's true. As long as you follow the contemplative lifestyle, eventually we can get deeper and deeper. Like personally, I have to deal with family, relationships and society in my daily work. I find that equanimity has really helped me navigate these things more easily, however, sometimes I feel a tinge of sadness when I see people who cannot seem to understand the dharma, even when you sneak in some non-technical words to try to help them to see.

I wonder though. Perhaps not teaching about jhana... is a way to prevent people from thinking about jhana and trying to grasp it, which can be counter-intuitive. I could see how that works, since we should try to cease doing and reach a stiller mind. But to those who reject jhana, then that is a pretty huge problem, since the Buddha has already said jhana was essential.

[Jhanananda]

Than you for your kind words. I'll go through the forum in my free time for sure! It is always reassuring to hear that such experiences are normal and to be expected. I just cannot understand why no one talked about it at my dojo. The disturbing part is that they even sold the opposite: how zazen would have positive outcomes. I have the opposite attitude nowadays with people who wish to discuss meditation with me (very few indeed as you can imagine). I always start by being honest and saying that it is my strong believe based on direct experience that meditation according to the Buddha is a powerful tool that can lead to both heavenly and hellish experiences. I tell them that I encourage them to practice but that they must be ready to face hardships.

Every religion has its frauds, and I find a characteristics of the frauds of religion are: They do not understand the religious experience; They marginalize those who have religious experiences; And, they have no dialog at all about the spiritual crisis, which I believe is an essential aspect of the religious experience.  The leadership of your Zen dojo seems to fall into the category of frauds.  Unfortunately I cannot point to a single Buddhist teacher alive today, or in the last 50 years who would not qualify as a fraud.

One question which I didn't mention is the relationship between the culmination of the path in jhana and the experience of nibbana. How do you define nibbana? Is it suddenly experienced while in jhana? If so must it be 4th jhana? I have read so many different interpretations that I quite literally don't know what it is supposed to be. The one definition I found most useful describes nibbana as cessation. It would be the experience of lack of experience, but this would apparently not be emptiness or nothingness. It would seem that when phenomena do not arise, then something does take its place which is nibbana and cannot be described. Many people who adhere to this description link their experience to a kind of momentary loss of consciousness but which they recognised as the ultimate truth or something like this. It's confusing. I have had such brief loss of consciousness in my practice and do not feel liberated in the slightest, as my background story makes abundantly clear...

Since almost no one in Buddhism in the last 2000 years has understood the significance of jhana, we would have to conclude that almost no one in Buddhism in the last 2000 years has understood.

There are actually several terms in the Pali canon which refer to various aspects of enlightenment as it was understood by Siddhartha Gautama, they are: the deathless, (amatta); liberation (vimokkha) and cessation (nibbana).

The deathless, (amatta) in the suttas seems to be used in the way the Prophets and early Christians may have used the term "eternal life" (Chayyei Olam).  We interpret it here as from leading a rigorous, self-aware contemplative life 24/7 we become lucid 24/7, so the conclusion is, if we do not lose consciousness during the sleep cycle, and we have learned to travel out-of-body at will, then our awareness will survive intact upon death.

We take here liberation (vimokkha) as being free of neuroses and addiction.  We find when we lead a rigorous, self-aware contemplative life 24/7, then we find fulfillment, so we no longer pursue the 7 deadly sins, or 10 fetters.  This is a consequence of mastering all 8 stages of samadhi.  In MN-26 we find a very good description of the 8 stages of samadhi, which are followed by a the term "vimokkha."

We take here cessation (nibbana) is the ending of the seeming endless turnings of the mind.  This is accomplished through leading a rigorous, self-aware contemplative life 24/7, so that we become lucid 24/7 and become liberated (vimokkha) from neuroses and addiction.

I know a mystic who started off with Zazen as well, and these techniques like Jhanananda said, brings people through the different stages of jhana, even if they don't realize it. Like the stilling of the mind, etc. I think many people do reach the first or second jhana but have no idea how to interpret them, and do not even realize they are experiencing them. But what matters is how to sustain them and go even deeper.

Sadly, so true.

[Kai Ryu]

I know a mystic who started off with Zazen as well, and these techniques like Jhanananda said, brings people through the different stages of jhana, even if they don't realize it. Like the stilling of the mind, etc. I think many people do reach the first or second jhana but have no idea how to interpret them, and do not even realize they are experiencing them. But what matters is how to sustain them and go even deeper.

Yes I definitely think people experience these states and my Dojo master had extensive experience in zazen. And they did talk about jhana, in fact we even analysed suttas and held group discussions. However, it was strongly emphasised that it is NOT the way. They even said that it could be detrimental to enlightenment, as jhanas could be mistaken for awakening. I felt bad about my own practice because it was clear to me I was reaching first and second jhana during most sittings.

The deathless, (amatta) in the suttas seems to be used in the way the Prophets and early Christians may have used the term "eternal life" (Chayyei Olam).  We interpret it here as from leading a rigorous, self-aware contemplative life 24/7 we become lucid 24/7, so the conclusion is, if we do not lose consciousness during the sleep cycle, and we have learned to travel out-of-body at will, then our awareness will survive intact upon death.

This is a very different interpretation from what I've read or heard before. What would then happen after death in such a case?

This makes me think that I read that you saw the Buddha and other great leaders in OOB experiences? Do you mean literally or is it more like you met manifestations of these people from your own consciousness? If you did in fact see the historical figures, would you care to elaborate on that?

We take here cessation (nibbana) is the ending of the seeming endless turnings of the mind.  This is accomplished through leading a rigorous, self-aware contemplative life 24/7, so that we become lucid 24/7 and become liberated (vimokkha) from neuroses and addiction.

Interesting, is this liberation permanent or dependent upon practice?

What about people who claim "sudden" awakening? Would their claims be bogus? If not, what would they awaken to?

What is your take on desire? It commonly taught that desire is the cause of suffering and that the end of suffering is the disappearance of desire. I've always struggled with this A LOT. I analyse things too much and it makes no sense to me. I see every decision as based to some degree on desire so there is no way to me that an individual would be free from it. They would literally stay in meditation and slowly die, unable to make a decision to stand up, as doing so would be yielding to a desire. Same thing for drinking. People argue that these are basic needs and do not count but if you start to scratch the surface, it is obvious that many everyday actions are in a grey area. Even typing is a manifestation of desire: desire to write to the forum, desire to choose certain words over others, desire to do it on my laptop for convenient typing as opposed to my phone, etc. It makes no sense to me that anyone could "uproot" desire.

[Cal]

The deathless, (amatta) in the suttas seems to be used in the way the Prophets and early Christians may have used the term "eternal life" (Chayyei Olam).  We interpret it here as from leading a rigorous, self-aware contemplative life 24/7 we become lucid 24/7, so the conclusion is, if we do not lose consciousness during the sleep cycle, and we have learned to travel out-of-body at will, then our awareness will survive intact upon death.

This is a very different interpretation from what I've read or heard before. What would then happen after death in such a case?

This makes me think that I read that you saw the Buddha and other great leaders in OOB experiences? Do you mean literally or is it more like you met manifestations of these people from your own consciousness? If you did in fact see the historical figures, would you care to elaborate on that?

Hello Kai Ryu, welcome to the forum. I'd like to share something with you.

Often in deep meditative states I become aware of beings that are near me. Some of them good, and many that are bad. I have found it possible to communicate with them. These beings tend to know what we are thinking or feeling, so expressing oneself to them is almost automatic. But, I have found in receiving information, it has come through imagery in the mind's eye, or through sensation, or even through a feeling that produces a word. Conversation, as in the exchange of adjectives, I have found to be limiting. Most always it has been a flood of information that requires deep contemplation and discernment. That communication would be of the "whole".

In this you might find how it would be difficult to explain any phenomena of this sort outside a "manifestation of these people from your own consciousness". As without the personal experience to pull from, we are forced to rely on the perception of the one who experienced; which in turn could be described as a "manifestation of ones consciousness". However, through collective discussion and sharing, much like we have here on the forum, I have also had very similar experiences to the ones shared here, and in this, because of their likeness, and the way that they resonate so closely to my own, I know them to be true. Without the commonality to what is so real to me, in the words of others, I could just as easily dismiss these experiences as time to check into the looney bin, cause we aint in Kansas anymore, ya feel me?

I am only describing what I have felt in the 3rd and 4th jhanas. When we begin to look at the 5th samadhi (OOBE) and above, things change, to say the least. Where as in the 4th Jhana one is content to abide, free of the body and physical consciousness. In the 5th one no longer only abides of the spirit, but they become free from bounds, and may do as they choose. You see, one who is skillfull could do many things. I would venture to say anything imaginable. Imaginable of what mind, as the physical consciousness was left behind? 

It goes even deeper...     

Again welcome to the forum, you may find yourself right at home.

[Jhanananda]

Yes I definitely think people experience these states and my Dojo master had extensive experience in zazen. And they did talk about jhana, in fact we even analysed suttas and held group discussions. However, it was strongly emphasised that it is NOT the way. They even said that it could be detrimental to enlightenment, as jhanas could be mistaken for awakening. I felt bad about my own practice because it was clear to me I was reaching first and second jhana during most sittings.

Most people do not seem to get anything at all out of the practice of meditation, or otherwise saying jhana is "NOT the way" would not be something any Buddhist would ever say.  Especially since it is the very definition of the 8th fold of the Noble Eightfold Path.  We have to conclude that there are a lot of people who claim to know something about Buddhism, who are clearly not following the Noble Eightfold Path.

This is a very different interpretation from what I've read or heard before.

I am not surprised since, they do not know what jhana is, or its significance, then why should be expect Zen teachers would understand the deathless?

What would then happen after death in such a case?

Anyone who spends a reasonable amount of time out-of-body knows precisely what happens after death.  It is just a full-time OOBE.  However, those who have no development in consciousness through lucidity in the sleep state will not have much control over the experience of death.

This makes me think that I read that you saw the Buddha and other great leaders in OOB experiences? Do you mean literally or is it more like you met manifestations of these people from your own consciousness? If you did in fact see the historical figures, would you care to elaborate on that?

It was my experience in many OOBEs that I was in the presence of many masters of the past, such as Jesus, Siddhartha Gautama, and others who never entered history.  I believe I have elaborated some of those experiences in the past on this forum.

Interesting, is this liberation permanent or dependent upon practice?

It depends upon what you mean by "practice."  To me enlightenment is not a moment in time, but a lifestyle to sustain the enlightened experience in every moment.  If you want to call that practice, then OK.

What about people who claim "sudden" awakening? Would their claims be bogus?

Yes, I see no evidence in the claims of "sudden" or "instant" awakening.  Enlightenment is not a drive-thru experience.  This also goes for the claim of "crazy wisdom."  Only crazy people follow people who had drive-thru enlightenment or "crazy wisdom."

What is your take on desire? It commonly taught that desire is the cause of suffering and that the end of suffering is the disappearance of desire. I've always struggled with this A LOT. I analyse things too much and it makes no sense to me. I see every decision as based to some degree on desire so there is no way to me that an individual would be free from it. They would literally stay in meditation and slowly die, unable to make a decision to stand up, as doing so would be yielding to a desire. Same thing for drinking. People argue that these are basic needs and do not count but if you start to scratch the surface, it is obvious that many everyday actions are in a grey area. Even typing is a manifestation of desire: desire to write to the forum, desire to choose certain words over others, desire to do it on my laptop for convenient typing as opposed to my phone, etc. It makes no sense to me that anyone could "uproot" desire.

It sounds like you have some confusion with understanding the difference between craving & covetousness, which leads to suffering and delusion; verses being self-aware enough to understand the needs of the body and mind, and meeting them for healthy and wholesome living, without falling prey to the cravings of the body and mind.

In Cal's word, negotiating the spiritual crises that are the product of deep meditation requires realizing that one is no longer in "Kansas anymore," because the deeper we go, the weirder it gets.

[Kai Ryu]

Thank you for these explanations. I find them very interesting and can only say that I hope to see for myself.  As Cal said, I recognise many of my own experiences on this forum. If what I have experienced is definitely true, then I have no reason to disbelieve anything that I have yet to experience. I'll continue on with my practice and will report back when anything worth sharing comes up. In the meantime, I will scroll through this forum.