Joe's Meditation Experience

[Jauho1979]

Hi everyone,

First of all, I would like to thank Jhananda and everyone else here with their informative posts and advice they have shared here on the GWV forum. I’ve been visiting here for the past few months while searching for some answers to my own meditative experiences and I must say I have gained a lot from reading other people’s experiences.

Now, I’ll share some of mine.

I have been a Goenka Vipassana practitioner since 2010 (I’m currently 36 yo). I practice 2 hours of sitting meditation every day religiously. However, from 2010 until 2014, ‘nothing much happened’.

In 2015, due to reduced workload in my career, I started upping my meditation hours to 4 or 5 hours a day and also practiced general mindfulness during the day. Before long, I began experiencing some of the strange phenomena that have been well-documented here.

First off, I experience kriyas frequently in my meditation and usually at the start of the sessions. They can be mild, violent and sometimes a mixture of both. They involve yoga-like postures, graceful dance-like arm movements, martial arts arm poses, hand mudras, torso swaying, head rocking, jerks, and facial grimaces and so on. They can be physically exhausting, especially when I let the kriya take full control of my body, but at the end of it I feel as if some tension had been released and there is a sense of stillness in me. On the other hand, if I resist them, then it can become quite uncomfortable and painful even.

Another phenomenon I experience daily is the mostly unpleasant pressure on my third eye region. It started mildly but eventually became quite painful when I persisted with long periods of meditation practice and general mindfulness. At one point it even got so bad that I became somewhat depressed because the pain was just there all the time. As a result of this, I have cut back my daily meditation sessions back to 2 hours, together with the general mindfulness, and I do the sessions before bedtime (because after my sleep the next day the pressure sensations are gone, at least for a while). I have this pressure in various degrees almost all the time now but it tends to get stronger during night time, and it is most intense during my meditation sits. To top that off, I’ve also suffered some persistent neck, shoulder and upper back soreness since then. To be fair, however, there were a few occasions when this pressure had been rather pleasant. It had a rather gentle pulse-like quality and was not painful at all. And there was even one instance when I felt a cool sensation there, like someone pressed a cold can of soft drink against my forehead.

The next phenomenon that I experienced quite often is the high-pitched frequency sound. It also sounds like cricket chirping sometimes but mostly it is the frequency sound. And it tends to become louder if I put my attention on it, whether in my meditation sits or during the day.

On a side note: during meditation, I try my best to stay equanimous and relax deeply. Occasionally I feel a pleasant feeling in the solar plexus or gut but mostly I don’t feel it because of the strong kriyas and third eye pressure. As the session progresses (say, into the second hour), the kriyas somewhat subside and I feel a nice, relax, worry-free feeling in my head, like that feeling you get 5 minutes after getting into bed for sleep. There are still thoughts but fewer, and they are more ‘quiet’. At times, the third eye pressure also somewhat subsides, but never completely gone.

And lastly, I have been experiencing some lucid dreams and possibly some OOBEs. They usually occur in the first half of hour after I fall asleep. In some dreams, the content seems rather typical except that I know I am dreaming. And once I realized what’s going on I become quite happy (gleeful even) because I know I could do ‘anything’ I wanted in my dream. I’ve also had this quite peculiar lucid dream several times where I found myself in a dark tunnel and I could feel a strong wind blowing against me with great whooshing sounds. In the ‘tunnel’ dream, eventually I would find myself choking and unable to breathe (because of the strong wind) and wake up.

As for my OOBEs, I have dreamt twice so far where I was wandering around in my bedroom before I walked right through the wall or the closed door and then fly up into the sky at high speed. On both occasions, I became scared of where I was heading and decided to just wake up, and that’s how the OOBE was terminated. In my latest OOBE-like dream, it started like a typical lucid dream but soon I found myself moving/flying at high speed. I was scared at first but I remind myself to stay calm so I kept flying. My dream surroundings were dark but soon I found myself heading towards a color-changing shape-shifting cloud-like object (the closest thing I can think of is a nebula). As I kept flying, I passed right through this nebula-like object and then several more. However, the high-speed flying made it hard for me to breathe (just like the tunnel dream) and eventually I woke up.

Alright, this is all now I have to report and I’ll follow up if I can remember more. I would appreciate if Jhananda or anyone here has any advice for me or even just comments.
Thank you.

Joe Chang (from Malaysia)

[Jhanananda]

Hi everyone,

First of all, I would like to thank Jhananda and everyone else here with their informative posts and advice they have shared here on the GWV forum. I’ve been visiting here for the past few months while searching for some answers to my own meditative experiences and I must say I have gained a lot from reading other people’s experiences.

Welcome, Joe, and thank-you for posting your case history here.

Now, I’ll share some of mine.

I have been a Goenka Vipassana practitioner since 2010 (I’m currently 36 yo). I practice 2 hours of sitting meditation every day religiously. However, from 2010 until 2014, ‘nothing much happened’.

In 2015, due to reduced workload in my career, I started upping my meditation hours to 4 or 5 hours a day and also practiced general mindfulness during the day. Before long, I began experiencing some of the strange phenomena that have been well-documented here.

It sounds like you have been making a noble effort, so I am not surprised that it is beginning to pay off.

First off, I experience kriyas frequently in my meditation and usually at the start of the sessions. They can be mild, violent and sometimes a mixture of both. They involve yoga-like postures, graceful dance-like arm movements, martial arts arm poses, hand mudras, torso swaying, head rocking, jerks, and facial grimaces and so on. They can be physically exhausting, especially when I let the kriya take full control of my body, but at the end of it I feel as if some tension had been released and there is a sense of stillness in me. On the other hand, if I resist them, then it can become quite uncomfortable and painful even.

Kriyas can range from simple twitches to complex movements as you described.  It sounds like you go allow this process to go on like a spontaneous moving meditation.  It sounds like you could get quite a bit out of it.

Another phenomenon I experience daily is the mostly unpleasant pressure on my third eye region. It started mildly but eventually became quite painful when I persisted with long periods of meditation practice and general mindfulness. At one point it even got so bad that I became somewhat depressed because the pain was just there all the time. As a result of this, I have cut back my daily meditation sessions back to 2 hours, together with the general mindfulness, and I do the sessions before bedtime (because after my sleep the next day the pressure sensations are gone, at least for a while). I have this pressure in various degrees almost all the time now but it tends to get stronger during night time, and it is most intense during my meditation sits. To top that off, I’ve also suffered some persistent neck, shoulder and upper back soreness since then. To be fair, however, there were a few occasions when this pressure had been rather pleasant. It had a rather gentle pulse-like quality and was not painful at all. And there was even one instance when I felt a cool sensation there, like someone pressed a cold can of soft drink against my forehead.

As you progress these sensations are likely to become quite pleasant, soothing and comforting.  So, just avoid too much practice, as you are doing.  Eventually you may find this charism will signal for you a time to meditate.

The next phenomenon that I experienced quite often is the high-pitched frequency sound. It also sounds like cricket chirping sometimes but mostly it is the frequency sound. And it tends to become louder if I put my attention on it, whether in my meditation sits or during the day.

This is very good as well.  No one charism is better than the other, so just let them come as they will, and learn to take comfort in them.  Eventually you may find all of the charisms occurring at once.

On a side note: during meditation, I try my best to stay equanimous and relax deeply. Occasionally I feel a pleasant feeling in the solar plexus or gut but mostly I don’t feel it because of the strong kriyas and third eye pressure. As the session progresses (say, into the second hour), the kriyas somewhat subside and I feel a nice, relax, worry-free feeling in my head, like that feeling you get 5 minutes after getting into bed for sleep. There are still thoughts but fewer, and they are more ‘quiet’. At times, the third eye pressure also somewhat subsides, but never completely gone.

This is very good.

And lastly, I have been experiencing some lucid dreams and possibly some OOBEs. They usually occur in the first half of hour after I fall asleep. In some dreams, the content seems rather typical except that I know I am dreaming. And once I realized what’s going on I become quite happy (gleeful even) because I know I could do ‘anything’ I wanted in my dream. I’ve also had this quite peculiar lucid dream several times where I found myself in a dark tunnel and I could feel a strong wind blowing against me with great whooshing sounds. In the ‘tunnel’ dream, eventually I would find myself choking and unable to breathe (because of the strong wind) and wake up.

Many of us mystics experience this on our way in and out of the body.

As for my OOBEs, I have dreamt twice so far where I was wandering around in my bedroom before I walked right through the wall or the closed door and then fly up into the sky at high speed. On both occasions, I became scared of where I was heading and decided to just wake up, and that’s how the OOBE was terminated. In my latest OOBE-like dream, it started like a typical lucid dream but soon I found myself moving/flying at high speed. I was scared at first but I remind myself to stay calm so I kept flying. My dream surroundings were dark but soon I found myself heading towards a color-changing shape-shifting cloud-like object (the closest thing I can think of is a nebula). As I kept flying, I passed right through this nebula-like object and then several more. However, the high-speed flying made it hard for me to breathe (just like the tunnel dream) and eventually I woke up.

Alright, this is all now I have to report and I’ll follow up if I can remember more. I would appreciate if Jhananda or anyone here has any advice for me or even just comments.
Thank you.

Joe Chang (from Malaysia)

This is all indicative of very good progress.  I can only say keep practicing as you have been, and keep reporting back here of any changes, or progress.  Feel free to comment on other posts here as well.  Thank-you for joining this community (sangha).

[Jauho1979]

Hi Jhananda,

Thank you for your kind words and encouragements. 

Besides spending time in your forum, I also find your YouTube videos quite helpful. And some of them which I have watched a few time.

I have stopped doing the Goenka method for some time now (since mid 2015) because after 4-5 years of practice, I find the body sweeping method unnatural and not very satisfying. Also, of course, per your claims and my own investigations into the Pali suttas, there is no scriptural support for his method (and perhaps the Mahasi method as well).

As for the Kriyas, to be honest, I do find them quite annoying sometimes as it feels like they just keep on going non-stop. There were even a few occasions I found myself rolling on the floor back and forth in my bedroom, all the while thinking, "What kind of meditation is this???!!" (Another reason I upped my meditation hours last year was because after reading Ajahn Chah's inspiring works, I wanted to join his monastery up north in Thailand. But I don't suppose the monastery would allow their prospective monks roll on the floor back and forth while meditating, with arms flaying about. LOL!)

As for my third eye pressure, it does get milder if I involve myself in worldly pleasures e.g. talking, watching TV, reading novels and the like. And I had to give up my solitary walks in my neighborhood area in the evenings (to contemplate the suttas) as well because it also exacerbates the uncomfortable sensations. Too bad, since the Buddha advices us not to indulge and be wary of worldly pleasures...

Oh another thing about the pressure, I have noticed that sometimes the sensation transforms into a nice goose bump-like feeling that radiates from my forehead to my entire scalp and then it transforms back in to the pressure-like feeling.

As for my lucid dreams, just recently I had another episode where I found myself waking up in my bedroom and it was still dark (it didn't occur to me then that I was lucid dreaming, and I really thought I was waking up). As soon as I tried to get up from my bed to go the bathroom, I found 'darkness' slowly enveloping my head like a blanket and I could not move my upper torso. I panicked at first but then told myself to relax since this darkness felt quite overpowering and I could not fight it. I surrendered and fell back into my bed and a moment later woke up from this dream.

There was another similar episode but with a sinister twist. This happened right after my first Goenka retreat back in 2010. I was about to fall asleep in my bed at home when I found myself 'sinking' into the bed. I was alarmed since I was not yet asleep and quite aware of my surroundings. Then a sinister male voice spoke seductively from the right side of my bed saying, "Yesssss......... Yessssss...... Yessssss............" as I sank helplessly deeper and deeper into my bed. That spooked the hell out of me and I struggled with all my might to wake/get up. As I did so, the voice disappeared and this was replaced by a multitude of voices speaking in tongues around me, although I could not see anything unusual in my bedroom when I looked around (thank god!). Eventually, I jumped out of my bed, turned on the light and chanted some Buddhist mantras for a good half an hour before going back to bed. Luckily for me, the rest of the night was uneventful and I still managed to get some restful sleep.

Joe Chang

[Jhanananda]

Hi Jhananda,

Thank you for your kind words and encouragements. 

Besides spending time in your forum, I also find your YouTube videos quite helpful. And some of them which I have watched a few time.

Yes, many of the others who have joined this forum have expressed appreciation for the GWV video series.  I am only too glad that it has helped people who have developed skill in deep meditation, such as yourself.

I have stopped doing the Goenka method for some time now (since mid 2015) because after 4-5 years of practice, I find the body sweeping method unnatural and not very satisfying. Also, of course, per your claims and my own investigations into the Pali suttas, there is no scriptural support for his method (and perhaps the Mahasi method as well).

I really do not have a problem with either the U Bha Kin (Goenka) method, nor the Mahasi Sayadaw method.  The Kaya-gati-sati sutta (MN 119) supports the U Bha Kin (Goenka) method; however, it should be significant that they never quote from that sutta.  The Mahasi Sayadaw method could be argued supported by a fragment of the Maha-sati-patthana sutta (DN 22); however, it should be significant that they never quote from that sutta either.

It turns out both suttas above refer to jhana, and the only suttas that either organization will quote from do not directly refer to jhana, but indirectly do.  This is the problem that I have with both schools of Buddhism.  Without an understanding of jhana, one cannot properly negotiate the Noble Eight-fold Path.

And, as you found, as well as I, and many of the people who have arrived here because they stumbled upon deep meditation, is the techniques has to be dumped to go deep.  This means as long as we remain with the technique we will for ever be just scraping the surface of what deep meditation can do for us.

As for the Kriyas, to be honest, I do find them quite annoying sometimes as it feels like they just keep on going non-stop. There were even a few occasions I found myself rolling on the floor back and forth in my bedroom, all the while thinking, "What kind of meditation is this???!!" (Another reason I upped my meditation hours last year was because after reading Ajahn Chah's inspiring works, I wanted to join his monastery up north in Thailand. But I don't suppose the monastery would allow their prospective monks roll on the floor back and forth while meditating, with arms flaying about. LOL!)

Yes, I believe that anyone who has found deep meditation will not find support in any organized religion; which says something about organized religion.

I think you should just go with the kriyas for now in a private setting, so that you do not have to worry about offending anyone's erroneous religious belief systems, and see where it goes.  You could assign one session per day to letting it all go, and use it as a subjective directed exercise system.  Think of it as beyond Qui Gong, or beyond Tai Chi. 

As for my third eye pressure, it does get milder if I involve myself in worldly pleasures e.g. talking, watching TV, reading novels and the like. And I had to give up my solitary walks in my neighborhood area in the evenings (to contemplate the suttas) as well because it also exacerbates the uncomfortable sensations. Too bad, since the Buddha advices us not to indulge and be wary of worldly pleasures...

Yes, I found deep meditation was truly transformative.  So, just let your life transform naturally, and keep following depth in meditation.

Oh another thing about the pressure, I have noticed that sometimes the sensation transforms into a nice goose bump-like feeling that radiates from my forehead to my entire scalp and then it transforms back in to the pressure-like feeling.

Yes, I recall a time when the tactile charisms were quite painful, and itchy too.  At that time I thought for sure blood would be spurting any minute from the various points on the body, such as the 3rd eye, and palms of my hands, but other than reddening from abrasion due to the intense itching, no blood, or other physical sign was apparent to others.  Eventually I learned to take comfort in the charisms, which resulted in the sensations being comforting, not annoying.

As for my lucid dreams, just recently I had another episode where I found myself waking up in my bedroom and it was still dark (it didn't occur to me then that I was lucid dreaming, and I really thought I was waking up). As soon as I tried to get up from my bed to go the bathroom, I found 'darkness' slowly enveloping my head like a blanket and I could not move my upper torso. I panicked at first but then told myself to relax since this darkness felt quite overpowering and I could not fight it. I surrendered and fell back into my bed and a moment later woke up from this dream.

Yes, confusing the dream with waking reality is common for lucid dreaming and the OOBE.  Sleep paralysis is also common, especially in the beginning.  It sounds like you are going to get used to it soon.

There was another similar episode but with a sinister twist. This happened right after my first Goenka retreat back in 2010. I was about to fall asleep in my bed at home when I found myself 'sinking' into the bed. I was alarmed since I was not yet asleep and quite aware of my surroundings. Then a sinister male voice spoke seductively from the right side of my bed saying, "Yesssss......... Yessssss...... Yessssss............" as I sank helplessly deeper and deeper into my bed. That spooked the hell out of me and I struggled with all my might to wake/get up. As I did so, the voice disappeared and this was replaced by a multitude of voices speaking in tongues around me, although I could not see anything unusual in my bedroom when I looked around (thank god!). Eventually, I jumped out of my bed, turned on the light and chanted some Buddhist mantras for a good half an hour before going back to bed. Luckily for me, the rest of the night was uneventful and I still managed to get some restful sleep.

Joe Chang

Oh, yes, these kinds of experiences are common for people who OOBE.  If we continue, then we get used to them.

The most frightening OOBE experience I ever had was about 3 decades ago I lay down in corpse pose after a long night meditation session.  As soon as I began to lift out-of-body a demoness fell upon me, clawing me with her nails, and biting me, like a wild beast.  It frightened me terribly, but I knew by then that all I had to do was go back to the body, and the demon would be left behind in the immaterial domains.

However, as soon as I got tired and tried to go back to sleep, the demon was upon me again.  It went on all night, until I took refuge in the holy spirit, which is what we call the charisms here, or Shakti in Hinduism.  I was then able to get some rest that night, in the comfort and protection of the holy spirit (Shakti).

[Jauho1979]

Yes, in the suttas the Buddha kept stressing on attaining the Jhanas, but in the Goenka retreats they either do not mention it or strongly discourage its development. This directly contradicts the Buddha's words where he said something to the effect of 'developing jhana is like following the footsteps of the Tathagata'. In addition, a Theravadin monk abbot here in Malaysia has commented that the term 'Vipassana' or 'insight' is not so much a meditation technique, but should be interpreted as the wisdom gained from personal reflections or contemplations on the Buddha's teachings.

Regarding the kriyas, yes, I have to keep reminding myself every time that this is the 'reality' of my spiritual practice right now. After all, I don't think the kriyas really give a hoot regarding what my preference of an ideal meditation session should be like. I suppose they will be gone only when they say so.

As for my third eye charism, at its worse (this was back in July last year) it was really painful and could last for hours for each episode, even outside of meditation. I could feel the pain in my forehead, face, neck and, to some extent, even the shoulders. Luckily, it had come down in intensity these days. I believe that learning to not resist them and relaxation are key. I recall after reading one of your posts in the forum regarding the charisms a few months back that I felt such a big relief that my meditation 'problems' aren't really problems and almost immediately the sensations lighten up on that day onwards.

And, yes, I have read about your experience with the demoness in another thread here in GWV. All I can hope to do is develop more equanimity in my meditation practice and also during the my daily life (I live with my aging parents so I'm getting 'trained' everyday. LOL!). I'm not really a big fan of OOBE, to be honest. But like the kriyas, I probably don't have much of a say about its occurrences at this stage of my practice, so all I can do is to prepare for it when it happens until I have gained better skills to control it at some later time. 

Lastly, thanks for reading my case history, Jhanananda, and taking the time to respond to them. 

[follinge@gmail.com]

Thanks for posting this. I am a lot less accomplished, but it's always inspirational and a bit amazing of how similar all the accomplished mediator's experiences sound.

What gave me faith in the group is that I have done extensive reading about Buddhism and this group's understanding comes closest to my own, independent interpretation.

The main differences is that there are experiences that go beyond what I knew as well as the integration of other non-Buddhist traditions into the understanding of meditation.

I have found these additions to be useful in terms of my own understanding as well as to where my practice is headed.

I'd look forward to future postings of your experiences.

Best wishes.

[Cal]

There was another similar episode but with a sinister twist. This happened right after my first Goenka retreat back in 2010. I was about to fall asleep in my bed at home when I found myself 'sinking' into the bed. I was alarmed since I was not yet asleep and quite aware of my surroundings. Then a sinister male voice spoke seductively from the right side of my bed saying, "Yesssss......... Yessssss...... Yessssss............" as I sank helplessly deeper and deeper into my bed. That spooked the hell out of me and I struggled with all my might to wake/get up. As I did so, the voice disappeared and this was replaced by a multitude of voices speaking in tongues around me, although I could not see anything unusual in my bedroom when I looked around (thank god!). Eventually, I jumped out of my bed, turned on the light and chanted some Buddhist mantras for a good half an hour before going back to bed. Luckily for me, the rest of the night was uneventful and I still managed to get some restful sleep.

I feel your pain in this. They're shitbags. Last night in meditation I had this one tell me I was a pussy right before it growled at me. I'll never get used to this growl...I feel that shit in my bones. Have courage, friend. I turned to look at him after the short while it took to regain myself. You know what he did? He ran. They don't want you to see them for what they are. Theyre afraid. More afraid than you or I could ever be, believe me. They don't have the key to the door.

I'll often remind myself in the worst of times that there are beautiful beings out there, just as many if not more than there is these asshats. You can see and hear them too. I often find myself distracted by fuckers because I have a desire to slap the piss out of them; but you don't have to pay any attention to them at all. Direct your awareness to the good that is out there, and the shitstains will have no effect on you. Remember, we are the directors of our awareness.

[Jhanananda]

Yes, in the suttas the Buddha kept stressing on attaining the Jhanas, but in the Goenka retreats they either do not mention it or strongly discourage its development. This directly contradicts the Buddha's words where he said something to the effect of 'developing jhana is like following the footsteps of the Tathagata'.

I would agree with this.  And, I would add a Christian twist, "We know a tree by its fruit."  If there is no jhana, then there is no fruit.

In addition, a Theravadin monk abbot here in Malaysia has commented that the term 'Vipassana' or 'insight' is not so much a meditation technique, but should be interpreted as the wisdom gained from personal reflections or contemplations on the Buddha's teachings.

The thing about mainstream religions is it is always pandering to the crowd for donations.  So, the teaching reflects this.  Otherwise, there is no place in the suttas where the term Vipassana' or 'insight' is associated with a meditation technique.  The term does appear, in the Samana-phala sutta (DN-2), where it is defined as one of several fruit of following the Noble Eight-fold Path.  So, it seems mainstream Buddhism, in its pandering for donations, missed the Buddha's message altogether.

Regarding the kriyas, yes, I have to keep reminding myself every time that this is the 'reality' of my spiritual practice right now. After all, I don't think the kriyas really give a hoot regarding what my preference of an ideal meditation session should be like. I suppose they will be gone only when they say so.

Yes, I agree.  It is our mission, as mystics, to simply do what the charisms instruct us to do.

As for my third eye charism, at its worse (this was back in July last year) it was really painful and could last for hours for each episode, even outside of meditation. I could feel the pain in my forehead, face, neck and, to some extent, even the shoulders. Luckily, it had come down in intensity these days. I believe that learning to not resist them and relaxation are key. I recall after reading one of your posts in the forum regarding the charisms a few months back that I felt such a big relief that my meditation 'problems' aren't really problems and almost immediately the sensations lighten up on that day onwards.

Yes, and having a community of mystics who give us guidance, can be very reassuring.

And, yes, I have read about your experience with the demoness in another thread here in GWV. All I can hope to do is develop more equanimity in my meditation practice and also during the my daily life (I live with my aging parents so I'm getting 'trained' everyday. LOL!). I'm not really a big fan of OOBE, to be honest. But like the kriyas, I probably don't have much of a say about its occurrences at this stage of my practice, so all I can do is to prepare for it when it happens until I have gained better skills to control it at some later time. 

Lastly, thanks for reading my case history, Jhanananda, and taking the time to respond to them. 

Yes, patience, equanimity, determination, and accepting that all of this bazaar stuff is par for the course.

Thanks for posting this. I am a lot less accomplished, but it's always inspirational and a bit amazing of how similar all the accomplished mediator's experiences sound.

Yes, follinge, this is the whole point of the case histories to show that I am not just some deeply deluded bliss bunny, but just one of a very small community of people who have learned to meditate deeply, and have thus acquired much of the same phenomena that is associated with deep meditation.

What gave me faith in the group is that I have done extensive reading about Buddhism and this group's understanding comes closest to my own, independent interpretation.

The main differences is that there are experiences that go beyond what I knew as well as the integration of other non-Buddhist traditions into the understanding of meditation.

I have found these additions to be useful in terms of my own understanding as well as to where my practice is headed.

I'd look forward to future postings of your experiences.

Best wishes.

It took critical thinking for you to come to the same conclusions many of us came to, which brought us all here together.  Now, we can inspire each other to meditate deeply by posting our case histories here.

[Jauho1979]

Thank you all Jhanananda, Cal and Folinge for taking the time to read and comment on my posts.

What I find interesting and also a bit frustrating is that some of this stuff that I am experiencing (like kriyas, pressure at the chakras) are not directly mentioned in the suttas at all. I mean given that the monks in Buddhas time meditate almost all day long, there should be at least a few of them who experience these phenomena. And since the Buddha talks just about everything under sun (provided they are Dhamma related), I find it quite strange that not a single direct reference has been made about them. I really wonder why that is? I mean, people (lay or ordained) approached him all the time for all kinds of advice and teachings and, as a result, there are thousands and thousands of pages of suttas created to document these advice and teachings. However, there is no direct mention of the Kriyas at all, for instance. So to me, this is quite bizzare, to say the least.

Folinge, as for these 'accomplishments' of mine, I don't feel it that way at all. Rather, to me, it's more like if you stay under the hot sun long enough. then eventually you will get sunburnt. LOL!

Cal, I can only imagine what you go through everyday in your meditation practice. If I had so many frightening experiences like you in my practice, I am not sure I would have continued and would rather have gone back to a 'normal' life instead. Nonetheless, I will keep in mind what you said about focusing on the good that is out there. Good advice!

I recall on two separate recent occasions while in practice where I saw images of spirits (with my eyes closed). This happened around midnight in my own bedroom with the lights off. Now before I continue, let me say first that I believe these are just my imaginations, and not something real, as in Cal's case. The first one involved an ugly-looking  female spirit jumping up and down, growling and shouting in front of me. Instantly I felt fear rising in me and my hairs stood on end all over my body (despite my belief that she was just my imagination). Nonetheless, I told myself to remain calm and then try to feel compassion for her, to the best of my ability. I also sent her some metta and merits and wished her well. And soon the images disappeared and I went back to my meditation. Later, when I reflected on this, I realized that had she been real, then she was just being who she was and there is not much that she or I could do about it. As for the second one, I saw a spirit who was tall and had long hair. I could not tell whether it was he or a she (though I am leaning towards the former). 'He' wanted some kind of help from me because he kept pointing at a house at the street behind mine. I declined (I'm not that generous a person and I'm not sure what to do) so I just sent him metta and merits, like I did the first one. And soon enough, he also disappeared and I went right back to my practice.

In hindsight, I hope that these imaginations of mine have served as 'trial runs' to prepare me for the real deal - not that I look forward to seeing them in my life.

Ok, I think I have ranted long enough in this post. 

[Cal]

What I find interesting and also a bit frustrating is that some of this stuff that I am experiencing (like kriyas, pressure at the chakras) are not directly mentioned in the suttas at all. I mean given that the monks in Buddhas time meditate almost all day long, there should be at least a few of them who experience these phenomena. And since the Buddha talks just about everything under sun (provided they are Dhamma related), I find it quite strange that not a single direct reference has been made about them. I really wonder why that is? I mean, people (lay or ordained) approached him all the time for all kinds of advice and teachings and, as a result, there are thousands and thousands of pages of suttas created to document these advice and teachings. However, there is no direct mention of the Kriyas at all, for instance. So to me, this is quite bizzare, to say the least.

It have found that the teachings of the Buddha are extremely refined. I have not read the entirety of the Pali Cannon, but what I have read has left me dumbfounded. They have a way about them that keeps the practitioner focused upon the "meat and potatoes". Piti and Sukha; Joy and Bliss. These words may have a completely different meanings to the two of us, if we are simply asked to describe them respectively. But if we put them into the context of a religious experience, we may know the meaning of them exactly. This use of generalized, or subjective adjective facilitates itself, and eventually we understand why.

I believe there was also intention to simply generalizing some of the religious aspect, or fruits of attainment; as most is also subjective when conveyed in words. If we were to take a laser pointer and shine it on a wall, where would ones focus be? Likely not upon the wall; which is massive in comparison.

But, in relation, the pressure of the third eye chakra can be quite uncomfortable for me as well, especially when it is fully open. You do get used to it though and beautiful things can come from it.

Cal, I can only imagine what you go through everyday in your meditation practice. If I had so many frightening experiences like you in my practice, I am not sure I would have continued and would rather have gone back to a 'normal' life instead. Nonetheless, I will keep in mind what you said about focusing on the good that is out there. Good advice!

I look at the person I was, before all of these weird-amazing-scary things started happening, and to the person I am now. The transformation thus far has been way beyond anything I even imagined possible. I came to this path unknowing, after the death of a loved one. It was almost 20 years later that I actually found what I was searching for. This gap of living is the only thing I could even remotely relate to being "normal", friend, and it was so full of hurt and pain, sorrow and self loathing, that I would never look back in a million years.

You might find it odd that I am thankful for these frightening experiences; but I truly am. They're a gift as much as a curse. Yin and Yang; Dark and Light. You see, even in the darkness of Yin, there is circle of light. In this, and in meditation, I am provided a harsh contrast to a beautiful existence. I may rant and rave, and at times, cower in fear, but I am ever thankful. Onward and forward, there's no looking back for me anymore.

Besides, meditation for me has just as much beautiful as it does grim. I tend to talk more about the negative because they are succeeding in distracting me; and I am aware of it. Maybe one day I'll drop the urge to pile-drive captain shitstain . Maybe one day I will be free of these taints. And maybe, just maybe, one day I'll be deserving of that kundalini energy again.

God bless 

[Jhanananda]

Thank you all Jhanananda, Cal and Folinge for taking the time to read and comment on my posts.

What I find interesting and also a bit frustrating is that some of this stuff that I am experiencing (like kriyas, pressure at the chakras) are not directly mentioned in the suttas at all. I mean given that the monks in Buddhas time meditate almost all day long, there should be at least a few of them who experience these phenomena. And since the Buddha talks just about everything under sun (provided they are Dhamma related), I find it quite strange that not a single direct reference has been made about them. I really wonder why that is? I mean, people (lay or ordained) approached him all the time for all kinds of advice and teachings and, as a result, there are thousands and thousands of pages of suttas created to document these advice and teachings. However, there is no direct mention of the Kriyas at all, for instance. So to me, this is quite bizzare, to say the least.

One has to keep in mind that there has been a lot of language shift in every language over the 2.6 millennium since Siddhartha Gautama lived.  There are; however, a few references that use the term 'chakra.'  In fact the term 'chakra' means "wheel."  Therefore the very use of the term "the turning of the dhamma wheel" specifically uses the term 'chakra.' 

Additionally there are a few suttas that seem to use the term 'chakra' in the sense of an energy center.  The Yoga suttras seems to also refer to 'chakra' in the sense of an energy center. However, only 5 are referred to.

It is also worth pointing out that the term 'kundalini' does not occur in any Indic religious literature prior to about 2,000 years ago.  Before that the term 'virya' is used.  The term 'virya' is commonly translated into English as 'energy,' and is most often interpreted as having the energy to follow the Noble Eight-fold Path.  However, it is more likely a reference to the tactile charism that we here experience.

Thus, our use of the term 'chakra' might very well have been included in the suttic references to 'virya'.

I recall on two separate recent occasions while in practice where I saw images of spirits (with my eyes closed). This happened around midnight in my own bedroom with the lights off. Now before I continue, let me say first that I believe these are just my imaginations, and not something real, as in Cal's case. The first one involved an ugly-looking  female spirit jumping up and down, growling and shouting in front of me. Instantly I felt fear rising in me and my hairs stood on end all over my body (despite my belief that she was just my imagination). Nonetheless, I told myself to remain calm and then try to feel compassion for her, to the best of my ability. I also sent her some metta and merits and wished her well. And soon the images disappeared and I went back to my meditation. Later, when I reflected on this, I realized that had she been real, then she was just being who she was and there is not much that she or I could do about it. As for the second one, I saw a spirit who was tall and had long hair. I could not tell whether it was he or a she (though I am leaning towards the former). 'He' wanted some kind of help from me because he kept pointing at a house at the street behind mine. I declined (I'm not that generous a person and I'm not sure what to do) so I just sent him metta and merits, like I did the first one. And soon enough, he also disappeared and I went right back to my practice.

In hindsight, I hope that these imaginations of mine have served as 'trial runs' to prepare me for the real deal - not that I look forward to seeing them in my life.

Ok, I think I have ranted long enough in this post. 

This is a good example of the correct way to deal with whatever these unpleasant phenomena are.  Regardless of whether they are demons, or just negative mental projections.  And, it shows the practice of sending metta works for this person in dealing with these unpleasant phenomena.

[Jauho1979]

Too bad that the Buddha did not make any direct references to these phenomenon and so the only thing we can do is to make intelligent guesses or inferences about them. I'm still scratching my head since the Buddha talked quite a bit about the more mundane stuff like how to treat one's family members, etc. and yet somehow, this gets left out. On a side note, Jhananda, could you refer me to the suttas where the Buddha used the term ‘chakra’?

About my forehead pressure, Cal, I'm just relieved that the intensity has come down noticeably since last July. It now only comes up during meditation, in the late afternoon and evening. And oh, if I'm reading anything spiritually-related, then the sensation can also come up.

As for your comments about the good and bad in the contemplative life, I can agree with that. Despite my terrible pressure headaches last year and a brief spell of depression and confusion, still I felt a need to meditate almost every day and so I continued to practice. And over the years of practice, I discovered that my anger, sexual lust and ego have come down noticeably (I’m currently still working on my greed). When I look back at my life, I realized how destructive these fetters can be to oneself and others if we were to remain self-unaware and give them free rein. In fact, one feels so free and calm as these fetters are lightening up - especially my anger and ego, though I’m a bit bummed that my sexual desire have also taken a back seat.

And Cal I sincerely wish that one day you will be free of the demons, not just the literal ones but also the ones that plague every being to some extent in this plane of existence. This reminds me of the quote: “Happiness is the best revenge, because nothing drives your enemies more insane than seeing you smiling and living a good life.”

Take care, friends! 

[Jhanananda]

Too bad that the Buddha did not make any direct references to these phenomenon and so the only thing we can do is to make intelligent guesses or inferences about them. I'm still scratching my head since the Buddha talked quite a bit about the more mundane stuff like how to treat one's family members, etc. and yet somehow, this gets left out. On a side note, Jhananda, could you refer me to the suttas where the Buddha used the term ‘chakra’?

While I have said many times, and still find, the Discourses of the Buddha are without a doubt one of the earliest, and clearest records of the mystical experience; nonetheless, it is not complete.  It is up to present and future mystics to improve that record.

Specifically in answer to your question I looked to see what I had already written on this topic and found two relevant paragraphs.  They are below.  I plan to publish this article completed on the GWV webpage soon.

The Sanskrit term “chakra” means ‘flower’ and was later associated with the wheel once the wheel was invented.  Later it became associated with spiritual centers, but it is unclear when this association took place.

The Sanskrit term ‘chakra’ appears in the earliest Buddhist literature and refers to the “wheel of the dharma” and other uses of the term ‘wheel’ but it does not seem to have been associated with spiritual centers in the physical body at that time. One could say that the Buddha’s frequent reference to the “wheel” of the dhamma could be a reference to the 7 anatomical chakras (wheels); however that association is not made in the Discourses of the Buddha. 

[follinge@gmail.com]

Too bad that the Buddha did not make any direct references to these phenomenon and so the only thing we can do is to make intelligent guesses or inferences about them. I'm still scratching my head since the Buddha talked quite a bit about the more mundane stuff like how to treat one's family members, etc. and yet somehow, this gets left out. On a side note, Jhananda, could you refer me to the suttas where the Buddha used the term ‘chakra’?

Reading here, I have come to the conclusion the the suttas, at least as I read them are not complete.

I look to there to supplement what's missing. There are also recommendations of other books such as St. Theresa and St. John of the Cross.

Finally, I learn from my own subjective experiences as well.

I see the Buddhist suttas as map. They do tell you how to get to where you want to go. However, each inch of the journey is not 100% spelled out.

This was hard for me to believe at first because there is so much material in the suttas and they are so detailed.

Either way, this is no longer anything that I worry about. I just read my favorite suttas, read here, and continue to meditate.

[Jauho1979]

This makes sense to me.