Transition from 4th to 5th Jhana

[Jhanek]

I am now not sure if first arupa jhana is for sure OOB. For me leaving the body is different ability from all other states. And it is ability. It can be well trained and one can become handsome 'body-exiter'. I know ppl who can leave body at will instantly, but it took them 10 years to reach this ability - the begginings were similar to slowed breathing, numbness and it took long time not always with success. The other doubt I have is the description of 1st arupa jhana of infinite space. This is what one experience even within the body, but after long time in 4th jhana no perception of body is present and something like infinite space comes but it is not the same as OOB. However I havent experienced it fully, just had a taste of it. The question is: infinite space for what? I would say for consciousness beyond the body, that perceives space without boundaries and then spreads fulfilling it.

Therefore I would state that manomaya has access to the world of greater space than material world but the arupa jhanas are about transgressing the borders of manomaya, no matter if mind-made-body is within the physical body or not. So the perception of space may happen while OOB.

[Naman]

Can u please explain that in your experience how u achieve, a) 1st Arupa jhana, b) oobe i.e. whats the difference in technique and what are the symptoms u feel? Are you able to get the experience every time u meditate ?

I feel first arupa jhana is about being detached with manomaya.. And witnessing the infinite space spread before us. I have come to know from experienced people that in the begining its hard to stop urself from doing things in oobe and to just witness the space.. It wud mean that to be detached isnt something that  happens as soon as we learn to go obe, but it requires further practice. I maybe be wrong.

But i wud really like to know how u progressed through the obe practice, what are the milestones.. Because i cant yet go out of body in full awareness.. Only thru sleep i experience it that too occasionally...

[Jhanek]

Hi

Can u please explain that in your experience how u achieve, a) 1st Arupa jhana,

1st arupa jhana happens after being well established in 4th jhana. Not sure if I can call it 'achieving', it rather 'happening'. Mind is perceiving things (space) outside the body, the perception increases more or less like a sphere around the body.

b) oobe i.e. whats the difference in technique and what are the symptoms u feel?

I see no connection between jhana state and OOB in daily practice. I think once having experienced jhana can be a factor enabling OOB, at least my case confirms it. Saying OOB I mean detaching from physical body. What I noticed is it requires activity of mind and silent, close to sleeping body. No jhana required. So mastering OOB is silencing the body while alerting the mind. The ability to relax the body, to release muscle tension is very usefull. The other ability is not to fall asleep - you are to observe the body slowly switching off, this is very hard.

Are you able to get the experience every time u meditate ?

Neither of them, but once I ll manage to reach it fast (arupa jhana) and investigate subject some more I ll share.

But i wud really like to know how u progressed through the obe practice, what are the milestones.. Because i cant yet go out of body in full awareness.. Only thru sleep i experience it that too occasionally...

What I described is what brought success to some ppl I know who continued OOB practice. I remember beginnings were sleepy, as usually one react to sleepy body sensations and fall asleep. The same time it takes years to feel the whole mind made body. In my case it happened as a byproduct of daily meditation as I stopped any attmpts of OOB exercises many years ago. What I also know is that most of the meditators are not able to leave the body at will, they need some time in meditation.

To sum up - jhana states and 'mastering them' is more about things just happening while OOB is a result of volition preceded by a lot of exercices or as you said the other poss is OOB thru sleep.

[Naman]

Hello.
Thanks for the reply. Yeah even i have come to understanding that arupa jhana are about transcending manomaya,, for that the mind body need not coincide with physical body.

However i was expecting that those who can reach arupa jhana can pull off obe for sure.

That wud mean even mastering arupa jhana can take years.

[Jhanananda]

That is a good question, Naman.  Typically the various charisms, such as the energy/numbness that is typically reported by deep meditators, arises at the 3rd jhana.

[Jhanananda]

I am now not sure if first arupa jhana is for sure OOB. For me leaving the body is different ability from all other states. And it is ability. It can be well trained and one can become handsome 'body-exiter'. I know ppl who can leave body at will instantly, but it took them 10 years to reach this ability - the begginings where similar to slowed breathing, numbness and it took long time not always with success. The other doubt I have is the description of 1st arupa jhana of infinite space. This is what one experience even within the body, but after long time in 4th jhana no perception of body is present and something like infinite space comes but it is not the same as OOB. However I havent experienced it fully, just had a taste of it. The question is: infinite space for what? I would say for consciousness beyond the body, that perceives space without boundaries and then spreads fulfilling it.

Therefore I would state that manomaya has access to the world of greater space than material world but the arupa jhanas are about transgressing the borders of manomaya, no matter if mind-made-body is within the physical body or not. So the perception of space may happen while OOB.

Often times the problems that we have with understanding our meditation experience based upon a translation of a sutta, is the translators typically do not meditate, so their translations are often deeply flawed.  Here is my translation of the 5th samadhi from MN26.

The Noble Search
Ariyapariyesana Sutta (MN 26.28)
Translated from the Pali by Jhananda 11-02-06

The Immaterial attainments
These are equivalent to Nirvikalpa samadhi
Fifth Samadhi or First Arupa Samadhi
Astral plane (àkàsànañcàyatanaü)
"Then again (Puna ca paraü) seekers of Buddhahood (bhikkhave bhikkhu), with complete (Sabbaso) transcendence of perceptions of the physical domain (råpasaññànaü), passing beyond (samatikkama) the rapacious material world (pañighasaññànaü), extinguishing (atthagamà) the variety of sensory perceptions (nànattasaññànaü), without the endless pull of mental activity (amanasikàrà ananto àkàsoti), one travels within (upasampajja viharati) the astral plane (àkàsànañcàyatanaü). It is said (vuccati) this seeker of Buddhahood (bhikkhave bhikkhu) has blinded ('andhamakàsi) Mara (màraü). Trackless (apadaü) he has destroyed (vadhitvà) Mara's vision (màracakkhuü). He has disappeared from (adassanaü) and surpassed (gato) the Evil One (pàpimato).

[Naman]

Thanks Jhananada for your reply and such apt translation.
I will keep working on my meditation. Btw i had another obe today morning when i slept after meditation, my legs were floating haha and thats all :| i closed my eys went back to sleep.

[Jhanananda]

OOBEs and other charisms arethe product of deep meditation.  Good work.

[Naman]

I had like 3 more oobe.. One time it was so clear that i didn even realize that i were looking thru my astral eyes. Been thru this before. I m now striving to stabilize and deepen this.

[Naman]

Have had more experiences seems like its growing quickly, some trick it takes to being abt the experiences...
And im reading monroes books and this the chapter in which he had premonition, and those same things happned in future, however few experiences he said he experienced thru the same method so as to get premonition but those havent had happend in his time... And im finding a depressing similarity between his visions and my dreams... Apocalyptic dreams, i have had them since childhood... I think that might just happen...

Also some other experiences which i havent experienced with the lucidity of reality but vivid dreams are matching, about a level where its always grey dark, sexual predators, insects like things crawling and some being twisting ur body and pressing some points on body which hurts like hell and it feels too real and painful,,
I always had discarded my vivid dreams cause they were not experienced with waking like consciousness.. But now i do find much resemblance.

[Jhanananda]

Good work, getting to the OBBE successively.  I find intuition, insight, and revelation are all products of learning to meditate deeply.  So, I am not surprised that you are developing these faculties as well.

Apocalyptic visions are all part of intuition, insight, and revelation.  One just has to develop equanimity to see these things.  It does not mean that apocalypse is coming immediately, but it is inevitably coming in the future.  We have a thread here on the topic.

Are We in the "End Times"? (Revelations)

[Naman]

Now since i understood how to bring oobe on, im having it on daily basis.. However the transition is still not fully.lucid and earlier i seem to go to deep sleep n wake upto it, but now its a mild sleep without going unconscious... Sometimes its a short dream and i wake upto sleep paralysis and i pull my energies to third eye n try and separate from.body, however without much success.. Just can get legs or hands floating.

[Jhanananda]

It sounds like you are making excellent progress.  When you no longer lose consciousness during the sleep cycle is when you have arrived at what Siddhartha Gautama called the (deathless), which I believe is what Jesus called (eternal life).  Keep up the good work.

[Naman]

Were ur initial oobes like this ? I still cant separate.. Neither its happening thru meditation yet. Still needing sleep. :/

[Naman]

And yeah i dont knw what with the restless legs,, if im wide awake  during practice, that starts happening after an hour or so of practice while lying down. Its been happening for over an year now, that i wake up several times during the night. I still need to hit the balance between sleep n meditation so as to achieve oobe. Is this restlessness common things that happens to everyone ? Is it somehow related to the duration of session we can do in sitting position? Cause i feel that need to get up, to the end sit cud bring that restless in my legs if they were outstretched..which is the case while practicing lying down. Have u gone thru this as well Jhananada?