Question about meditation and consideration

[laurent]

Hello everyone.

I am new in this forum, 39 years old french guy living in France.
Please, forgive me for my approximative english.
I have landed here by making some researches about jhanas.
As you may know, jhana is a controversial item in buddhism.
I read suttas since approximately 6 months and have noticed that
Buddha never produced any restriction about jhanas.
Buddha taught jhanas without any warning.
So i was asking myself why people are so hesitating about this part
of Buddha's teaching.
This have lead me here.

My question is about some point of the meditation.

When i read suttas, i notice that Buddha often gives advices on the
correct attitude of the disciples.
It seems to me that it is a part of "right resolve", good thoughts, correct thoughts.
I found very useful to consider those advices and even keep them in mind while meditating,
sometimes even with words while meditating.
For example, in Dhatuvibhanga Sutta, Buddha gives a lot of advices, like considering:
"this is not me, this is not my self, this is not mine" and other considerations about
the five aggregates.
In the Satipatthana sutta, "inspiring, he knows "i inspire""
In some suttas, there are disciples that are liberated by words from Buddha, like Bahiya:
"Through hearing this brief explanation of the Dhamma from the Blessed One, the mind of Bāhiya
of the Bark-cloth right then and there was released from effluents through lack of
clinging/sustenance."
There are also considerations about death, asubha, metta, that seem to be an important
part of the teaching, as well as direct sight.
It makes me wondering that those considerations may be a part of meditation since both
direct sight and consideration seem to be tangled and not separated in the Teaching.

In the other hand, i notice that most meditation teachers insist on just observing without
any considerations, as wisdom comes out from a personal experience, without presupposing
anything and i guess it is a reasonable position.

So, i am a little troubled with this, and i would be interested to know more opinions about
about this, and if possible Jhananda's opinion.

Thank you in advance.
Laurent.

[Jhanananda]

Hello everyone.

I am new in this forum, 39 years old french guy living in France.
Please, forgive me for my approximative english.

Welcome, Laurent, and thank-you for joining this forum and posting your inquiry here.  Do feel free to post your comments and questions here in both English and French as I know that we have at least one other person who is a native speaker of French.  Others of us might be fluent enough in the language to read your original writing easier in your native language.  This goes for others who are native speakers of languages other than English, as this forum is truly international, so one never knows whether a native speaker of your language is present on this forum.

I have landed here by making some researches about jhanas.
As you may know, jhana is a controversial item in buddhism.
I read suttas since approximately 6 months and have noticed that
Buddha never produced any restriction about jhanas.
Buddha taught jhanas without any warning.
So i was asking myself why people are so hesitating about this part
of Buddha's teaching.
This have lead me here.

Yes, it is true that jhana seems to be marginalized in Buddhism.  My explanation is most probably most Buddhist priests of most Buddhist factions most probably never learn to meditate deeply, and instead put the robes on and just pretent to be holy; which is most probably true of most of the priests of most other religions.

My question is about some point of the meditation.

When i read suttas, i notice that Buddha often gives advices on the
correct attitude of the disciples.
It seems to me that it is a part of "right resolve", good thoughts, correct thoughts.
I found very useful to consider those advices and even keep them in mind while meditating,
sometimes even with words while meditating.

Religions tend to talk about righteousness, but I find Buddhism is far more explicit regarding what righteousness is.  It is of course following a Noble Eightfold Path.

For example, in Dhatuvibhanga Sutta, Buddha gives a lot of advices, like considering:
"this is not me, this is not my self, this is not mine" and other considerations about
the five aggregates.
In the Satipatthana sutta, "inspiring, he knows "i inspire""
In some suttas, there are disciples that are liberated by words from Buddha, like Bahiya:
"Through hearing this brief explanation of the Dhamma from the Blessed One, the mind of Bāhiya
of the Bark-cloth right then and there was released from effluents through lack of
clinging/sustenance."
There are also considerations about death, asubha, metta, that seem to be an important
part of the teaching, as well as direct sight.
It makes me wondering that those considerations may be a part of meditation since both
direct sight and consideration seem to be tangled and not separated in the Teaching.

Yes, I agree these are well-written suttas, worth reading, remembering and studying.

In the other hand, i notice that most meditation teachers insist on just observing without
any considerations, as wisdom comes out from a personal experience, without presupposing
anything and i guess it is a reasonable position.

So, i am a little troubled with this, and i would be interested to know more opinions about
about this, and if possible Jhananda's opinion.

Thank you in advance.
Laurent.

This is a good question, Laurent.  It has been my experience that wisdom and insight come from spending a great deal of time in meditation, and are not directly the product of thinking and reasoning; whoever I do agree that critical thinking and critical reading are essential skills that a contemplative who seeks a fruitful contemplative life must also gain skill in.

I look forward to reading more of what you have to say and ask.

[laurent]

Thank you for your advices, i will take account of them.

Best regards,
Laurent.

[DDawson]

Hello Laurent,

First of all, my experiences with  Samadhi occured during an upbeat period of my life and I think this is important because using these techniques when one is struggling with doubts, anger or greediness, the impediments  of Samadhi, the results will be bad for ones mental health.  I think this is why the Buddha stressed virtue as a foundation for meditation.  Personally, I think there are times when a person should not meditate, but wait until their mood has elevated and they find themselves with a group of friends who they trust and gain inspiration from.  I began by abandoning any hope of understanding the Buddha's teachings, thereby freeing me to investigate anything that drew my interest and in my own way.  I was curious about the good feelings and moments I had had in my life and decided to investigate them.  This seemed far more reachable than anything as deep as the Dhamma .  I saw the movie "Brother Sun, Sister Moon" on TV and thought, this is familiar to me.  I know these feelings.  So, I began to feel for them.  I also remembered what it felt like to feel safe and protected as a child, lying in bed hearing a background conversation in another room. I also did my best to have thoughts of loving-kindness.  This was familiar to me too.  Little by little I began to tune into these familiar but rare feelings.  As I meditated, I watched for any feelings of calmness, pleasantness, or pleasure.  I began to notice the tiniest hint of balance and pleasure but because it was associated with a kind of detachment, I didn't get excited about it.  Even when it grew to intense waves of joy, I wasn't terribly excited about it or thought it had any value other than produce strangely altered states of consciousness that reminded me of childhood.  Places felt like the playground in gradeschool or the farm in Idaho where we would visit on summer vacation.  I was happy with the results, because life had more color and I felt more alive.  I think for this method to work, one must develop a healthy detachment or aloofness, otherwise the ego wakes from its slumber wreaks havoc.  I believe meditation can  be dangerous at times.  It's better to begin with no expectation of results and any perceived achievements let go of.  Freedom is better than any achievement.

[Jhanananda]

Hello Laurent,

First of all, my experiences with  Samadhi occured during an upbeat period of my life and I think this is important because using these techniques when one is struggling with doubts, anger or greediness, the impediments  of Samadhi, the results will be bad for ones mental health.  I think this is why the Buddha stressed virtue as a foundation for meditation.  Personally, I think there are times when a person should not meditate, but wait until their mood has elevated and they find themselves with a group of friends who they trust and gain inspiration from. 

In the 90s I was in a protracted depression due to the failure of my business and two marriages.  I still kept meditating.  What shifted me out of depression into a deeper level of meditation by 2000 was reading the Mahaasaccaka sutta (MN 36).

"It occurred to me: Doing these difficult exertions (his earlier ascetic practices), I will not attain, any noble distinctive knowledge and vision above human. There should be some other method for the realization of enlightenment. Then Aggivessana, I recalled the experience under the shade of the rose apple tree near my father’s field: Secluded from sensory stimuli and secluded from unwholesome thoughts, with applied and sustained attention (vitakka and vicára) and with joy (sukha) and pleasure (piiti) originating from seclusion, I attained to the first ecstasy (jhana). Then the wisdom (pana) arose ‘this is the path to enlightenment.’ I thought, why should I fear this pleasantness, which is other than sensual pleasure and away from unwholesome thoughts?"
(Based upon a translation by Bhikkhus Nanamoli & Bodhi Majjhima Nikaya, Wisdom, 1995, with editorial corrections by Jhananda)

What I got from this sutta was all we need do to continue to have deep meditation experiences is to recall a previous deep meditation experience.  Since I had attended a 10-day meditation retreat every year since 1975, then I had many, many deep meditation experiences.  All I needed to do is recall one of them while I sat in meditation, and that act of recollection stimulated a new one every time.  So, try it and see if it works for you as well.

I began by abandoning any hope of understanding the Buddha's teachings, thereby freeing me to investigate anything that drew my interest and in my own way.  I was curious about the good feelings and moments I had had in my life and decided to investigate them.  This seemed far more reachable than anything as deep as the Dhamma .  I saw the movie "Brother Sun, Sister Moon" on TV and thought, this is familiar to me.  I know these feelings.  So, I began to feel for them.  I also remembered what it felt like to feel safe and protected as a child, lying in bed hearing a background conversation in another room. I also did my best to have thoughts of loving-kindness.  This was familiar to me too.  Little by little I began to tune into these familiar but rare feelings.  As I meditated, I watched for any feelings of calmness, pleasantness, or pleasure.  I began to notice the tiniest hint of balance and pleasure but because it was associated with a kind of detachment, I didn't get excited about it.  Even when it grew to intense waves of joy, I wasn't terribly excited about it or thought it had any value other than produce strangely altered states of consciousness that reminded me of childhood.  Places felt like the playground in gradeschool or the farm in Idaho where we would visit on summer vacation.  I was happy with the results, because life had more color and I felt more alive.  I think for this method to work, one must develop a healthy detachment or aloofness, otherwise the ego wakes from its slumber wreaks havoc. 

This is pretty much what I am saying above.

I believe meditation can  be dangerous at times.  It's better to begin with no expectation of results and any perceived achievements let go of. 

Here I disagree.  I started practicing meditation practice more than 4 decades ago with an expectation that something pleasant, and trasnformative, and an altered state of consciousness, would arise.  It did soon after I started a daily meditation practice.

Freedom is better than any achievement.

I agree here.

[laurent]

Hello Dawson,

I totally agree with Jhananda. In my experience, meditation has always made me better. I have stopped meditation during several years, and then i meditate newly since about 6 months. It makes a HUGE difference. We don't realize when we are inside, it is like when you are healthy, you don't realize how pleasant it is. You realize this when you become ill. And then when you are healthy again, you realize how it is pleasant, but later, you don't remind it.
I understand what you mean though, because some people have terrible issues in meditation. They are reacting with much anger or fear to unpleasant things and they go inside terrible issues .
Don't worry about me, i have heard the teachings and personnally considered about death, sickness, dangers, stress, afterlife and all those gifts that life brings, so i am not very impressionnable.
Thank you for your compassion and goodwill 

[DDawson]

Hi Laurent,

I'm glad things are working out for you.  Full speed ahead.     

[laurent]

Hi Laurent,

I'm glad things are working out for you.  Full speed ahead.     

Thank you.
To be honest, i have issues with laziness and sensual  attractions. I am on my way to take part to a 10 days retreat that should be helpful.

[bodhimind]

From what I know, both stem from an identification with the body.

The only reason why a 10 day retreat would be useful is because you stop exposure of these triggers to your mind. I still find the best way is to establish a routined meditation practice every single day, saturating in the jhanas and burning off addictions. Think for a moment: If you didn't have a body, you wouldn't have any of those two problems... It's a body-habit and the instincts that are used for animalistic survival can be quite strong, so as long as you are identified as the animal-body then it becomes the fetter that binds you.

I see my body as foul, as a dying body that has grown but is slowly dying, in fact the only destination it can ever go to now is just death, so I do not fear death, I only fear not having ended suffering. It is strange though, but although I feel that it is foul, and am said to be 'repulsed', but I don't feel disgust and simply accept it as part of nature, just like the countless beings around the world operating their flesh-puppets. But yeah, I still think laziness and sensual attractions have their root in the body-habit.

[DDawson]

I think meditation boils down to finding a state of mental balance and when that is achieved the magic begins.  All of our personalities are different and what works for one person won't work for another.  I, for one, am a hyper conscientious and determined person and have to back off my efforts by 90% to find that equilibrium.  Others need to do the opposite.  I have seen people who have tried too hard induce unbalanced mental state to the point of mental illness.  I've experienced this myself and too tell you the truth, being overdetermined and focused is such a habit I'm not even aware I'm doing it until the effects show themselves. I've heard this called meditation sickness.  My successful efforts were the result of releasing cares and concerns and any sense of responsibility.  I believe the Buddha mentions this in a discourse on how to begin meditation.  I also noticed that meditation was like sleep.  If I try to fall asleep I can't but if I don't try I fall asleep without any effort.  I also noticed that my awareness had to be peripheral otherwise my gaze was too strong.  These little tricks helped me to find that point of balance.  You're successful strategies will be different, no doubt.  Best Wishes and good luck.

[laurent]

For me, it is more a quantity problem. It is a question of time spent on the cushion. My main problem is daily life.
I see there is a virtuous circle and a vicious circle, i know both of them but i have issues to disciplin myself.
It is just like when you want stop smoking and say yourself " A little cigarette won't make me ill".
So, retreats are very precious at my eyes.

[Frederick]

From MN 36: http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/pali/Phala_Nikaya/mahaasaccakasutta.htm

(Dark Night of the Soul)

"Aggivessana, then it occurred to me, what if I practiced stopping the in-breaths and the out-breaths, entering through the nose and mouth? When I practiced stopping in-breaths and out-breaths entering through the nose and mouth, air entering through the ears made much noise. It was like the sound that came from the bellows of the smithy. In the same manner when I stopped in-breaths and out breaths, entering through the nose and mouth, air entering through the ears made much noise."

I had never read this. I did not know the audio charism was in the suttas. Fascinating.

[Jhanananda]

Hi Folks, I found my backup power adapter for my laptop, so I am finally back online.  It might take me a few days to catch up.

The only reason why a 10 day retreat would be useful is because you stop exposure of these triggers to your mind. I still find the best way is to establish a routined meditation practice every single day, saturating in the jhanas and burning off addictions.

I completely agree.  The daily meditation practice seems to be the most difficult thing for people to do, and yet it seems to be the most significant thing that produces jhana.

I think meditation boils down to finding a state of mental balance and when that is achieved the magic begins.  All of our personalities are different and what works for one person won't work for another.  I, for one, am a hyper conscientious and determined person and have to back off my efforts by 90% to find that equilibrium. 

Perhaps this is where the partner dancing, or horse riding metaphor comes in.  To succeed at deep meditation one needs to learn to "hold onto the object" with just the right "grip."  That "grip needs to be like the grip the lead in ballroom dancing has on his partner's hand and waist; which is like the grip the rider has on the reigns of the horse.  In these cases too tight a grip leads to no success.  Too loose a grip also fails.  One must have just the right grip upon the meditation object to succeed at deep meditation, which is not too tight, and not too loose.

From MN 36:

(Dark Night of the Soul)

"Aggivessana, then it occurred to me, what if I practiced stopping the in-breaths and the out-breaths, entering through the nose and mouth? When I practiced stopping in-breaths and out-breaths entering through the nose and mouth, air entering through the ears made much noise. It was like the sound that came from the bellows of the smithy. In the same manner when I stopped in-breaths and out breaths, entering through the nose and mouth, air entering through the ears made much noise."

I had never read this. I did not know the audio charism was in the suttas. Fascinating.

Yes. It is amazing how detailed a document the suttas are for the mystic.  In fact they are the most detailed of any of the ancient literature that I am aware of.