8fold path or 10fold path? + Jeffrey/Australian forest tradition parallels

[kiddhamma]

Hello friends,

2 ideas - the first regarding whether the buddhist path is an 8fold one or a 10 fold one (discussed in this link https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/noble-tenfold-path/2963) and the second regarding how similar I feel Jeffrey's understanding of the spiritual journey conception and finding it is to that of the monks from the Australian Forest Tradition).

1) I recently stumbled upon this discussion over at suttacentral (run by Ajahn Sujato a monk in the Australian forest tradition (derived from the Thai Forest Tradition) which specifically focuses on jhana (which I assume interests most here). In this discussion, which digresses later on, the main question posed is surrounding the notion of a tenfold path rather than an eightfold path. The eightfold path constitutes the practice and the further two folds constituting the fruits of that practice, (right knowledge and right liberation).

This seems to be quite similar to Jeffrey's understanding if I'm not mistaken?

2) Furthermore, Jhananda, the more I research the critical perspective that the Australian forest tradition (ajahn brahm + ajahn bramali + ajahn sujato and probably more) the more I see parallels with Jeffrey's conception of looking to the suttas and using comparative analysis and various translations and going back to one's practice and experience with a focus on jhana.

There is a similar notion also with that jhana is practiced and then after one comes out of jhana one then reflects on the experience naturally, which results in insight.

What are your thoughts, is samma samadhi the end, and does the Australian Forest Tradition (mainly Ajahn Sujato) have a good thing going for it in its focus on Early Buddhism comparative analysis and a focus on the practice and jhanas.

[Jhanananda]

Thank-you, kiddhamma, for posting a rather interesting aspect of the dhamma to reflect upon.  The OP sites:

DN 18: From right view arises right thought, from right thought arises right speech, … right action, … right livelihood, … right effort, … right mindfulness, … right concentration, from right concentration arises right knowledge [sammā-ñāṇa], from right knowledge arises right liberation/deliverance [sammā-vimutti].

I would have to start my discussion here by pointing out that anyone who translates sammā-samadhi as "right concentration" has clearly never had the experience of sammā-samadhi aka jhana; because the experience of deep meditation (sammā-samadhi) is characterized by bliss and joy, not by being hyper-focused.  In fact "right concentration" should be the proper translation of the 7th fold with right mindfulness as a definition.

Perhaps we should say that if the N8P is properly followed, then it should lead to the superior fruit of attainment (maha-phala).  See the SÂMAÑÑA-PHALA SUTTA (DN-2). Here insight, wisdom and liberation are all superior fruit of attainment (maha-phala).  On the other hand making it a 10-fold path forces recognition of the superior fruit of attainment (maha-phala).

[kiddhamma]

Hey Jhananda,

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss these people's experiences based on that translation. Right concentration just seems to be the inherited translation which people tend to accept without too much reflection. If you look around that forum of what they have to say about jhana it is remarkably similar to your own, very very strong and deep. I think more people agree with your jhana opinion than you might think. (although obviously right concentration doesn't capture the experience at all, the way these people actually define samadhi outside of that inherited unreflective translation goes vastly beyond it).

Also, somebody commented on that thread describing how the 3 knowledges don't arise by themselves but the mind must incline towards them and potentially leave jhana for them. E.g. to recollect past lives. By the way, what has your experience been with past lives?

[Jhanananda]

Hey Jhananda,

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss these people's experiences based on that translation. Right concentration just seems to be the inherited translation which people tend to accept without too much reflection. If you look around that forum of what they have to say about jhana it is remarkably similar to your own, very very strong and deep. I think more people agree with your jhana opinion than you might think. (although obviously right concentration doesn't capture the experience at all, the way these people actually define samadhi outside of that inherited unreflective translation goes vastly beyond it).

It has become clear to me that to arrive at a fruitful contemplative life, then we need to both read and think critically.  For instance, I find there is no translation of the bible and gospels that are even close to true.  I find the same thing in Buddhism.  So, why do you think that is?

I have maintained a daily meditation practice for over 43 years.  I have been clean and sober for over 42 years.  I have a clean record, and I happen to have an exceptionally high IQ.  And, I have documented many of the nuances of deep meditation and its many superior fruit (maha-phala).  You would think that I would be the poster boy of Buddhism with that kind of practice and attainment.  However, 16 years ago I spent 3 years in search of a Buddhist sangha that would accept me as a monk.  Not one did, so I ordained myself.  That put me on a list of "controversial Buddhist teachers."

Forty Three years ago I searched libraries and book stores for people who described the experiences that I was having in meditation.  I found no contemporary authors even close, but I found ancient authors like: Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross, Rumi, Kabir and Patanjali had descriptions that matched some of my experiences. Along the intervening years I spoke to gurus, and Buddhist monks and meditation teachers about my experiences in meditation.  In every cases I was marginalized by them.

Sixteen years ago I used the internet to find out about my meditation experience.  I found no one describing the phenomena that I was experiencing in deep meditation.  And, there was no use of the term 'jhana' in Buddhism in literature or forums, or dialogs with Buddhist monks or meditation teachers. 

Thirteen years ago I had a conversation over the phone with a Buddhist meditation teacher about my meditation experiences.  This was immediately after I was booted out of a Goenka retreat for describing my meditation experiences to the assistant teacher there. 

He said, "It sounds like you have jhana."

That was the first time I had heard the term 'jhana' in 30 years of Buddhist meditation dialog and reading.  And, I was very well-read in published Buddhist literature at the time.  However, the inflection in that Buddhist meditation teacher's voice when he used the term 'jhana' sounded like he was saying I had AIDS.

Nonetheless, I searched for the term and found very little written or dialog on it, but I found the suttas, and found that the term 'jhana' was used in the suttas, so I began to read them in translation, where I found ever instance of the use of terms 'samadhi' and 'jhana' in the Pali Canon were always translated as 'concentration.'  It was then that I realized that mainstream Buddhism is just as corrupt as mainstream Christianity.  This is when I started my own forums on jhana, and I started my website with detailed description of jhana and the other superior fruit of attainment, and produced and published a series of videos on the same subject.

So, if the Buddhist teachers you mentioned indeed had similar experiences to mine, then where are they?  Why are they not here?  Why are they not quoting my work on their forums?

Also, somebody commented on that thread describing how the 3 knowledges don't arise by themselves but the mind must incline towards them and potentially leave jhana for them. E.g. to recollect past lives. By the way, what has your experience been with past lives?

This has not been my experience.  I found insight arose from my deep meditation experiences.  I did not have to incline my mind towards it.  Nor did I have to reflect upon the 3 marks "knowledges."  To me doing so is all too cognitive; whereas, the deep meditation experience is purely subjective, and non-cognitive.

You can find my experiences with the phenomena of deep meditation, including past life recollection, at the link.

You can also find my writing on Buddhist criticism at the link.

[kiddhamma]

So, if the Buddhist teachers you mentioned indeed had similar experiences to mine, then where are they?  Why are they not here?  Why are they not quoting my work on their forums?

Over on the forum I sent you there seem to be quite a few. Ajahn Sujato, Brahmali, Brahmavamso to name a few. Furthermore, many of the Thai Forest tradition monks seem to be experiencing similar jhanas.

I don't think they would necessarily have come across your writings and needed to have quoted them in their own writings if they too experienced these states themselves without needing to refer to any contemporary literature.

It is a huge shame that jhana had been sidelined, along with yourself, over all those years, I'm so sorry to hear about all of that. But luckily the cat seems to be coming out of the box and jhanas seem to be finding their way into the mainstread, see Ajahn Brahm's talks/books along with Ajahn Sujato (I've also heard good things about Analayo.

[DDawson]

I know for sure the Thai forest tradition is well acquainted Jhana.  Ajahn Chah used it which led to his first breakthrough.  There are monks who claim that is essential for the understanding of the Dhamma.  This is considered by those who have never experienced it as a conceited notion.  The Sangha is structured by seniority, not by ability.  It's kept quiet, so as not to offend the more incompetent  but powerful monks.

[Jhanananda]

I suggest that both of you, kiddhamma and DDawson, consider that just because a meditation teacher or monk uses the term 'jhana' does not mean that person knows what jhana is, or has had the experience of jhana.  So, I recommend that you both read my essay A Critical Analysis of the teaching of Jhana.

[DDawson]

Hi Jhanananda,

I don't want to rile you up.  I appreciate what your doing and wish only the best for you.  I did read your essay.  I am not a scholar.  Personally, I don't like to have rigid opinions about anything because it feels a whole lot nicer to keep an open mind.  Maybe I'm just lazy.  I made contact with you because I saw on the internet that Abhayagiri sabotaged your retreat at Bell Springs and I watched your videos.  Love those videos.  As you know, I was mistreated by them myself.  I spent about 4 years hanging out with them, and in that time I had a few experiences and gleaned some information about how their system works.  They are secretive.  They are not allowed to confide with a lay person about any of their meditation experiences or attainments.  The lay people or anyone who isn't in their inner circle are left in the dark and are considered outsiders.  Sometimes, they'll hint, make an off hand remark or let slip something.  Its because of these occasional lapses of theirs that I came to these conclusions.  If you hang out with a group of people long enough, even with the secrecy, you can pick up on the politics and power plays that run their lives.  I believe some people were experiencing altered states of consciousness, whatever that's called. Most weren't.  Those that weren't were frustrated and envious of those that were.  It's not easy being a monk or nun. They called these blissed out altered states Jhana.  When they were under the influence of one of these altered states, their face was flush, their body language changed and even their voices were different.  This is how I could tell who was in the groove and who wasn't.  I agree with you that you'd think experiences like these would make them better people.  They were nice enough but I feel they needed work.  Sometimes I was really disappointed and even appalled by their behavior, but who understands the depth of character it takes to be completely enlightened.  Maybe it takes a while.  Lets face it, they have spent decades meditating on a daily basis,  It only makes sense that a few of them would stumble upon the path and its fruit.  I do appreciate you and fully admit you're superior experience and scholarship and am deeply grateful.  It's always a delight to read your post and know your in charge of things. 

[Jhanananda]

Hi Jhanananda,

I don't want to rile you up.  I appreciate what your doing and wish only the best for you.  I did read your essay.  I am not a scholar.  Personally, I don't like to have rigid opinions about anything because it feels a whole lot nicer to keep an open mind.  Maybe I'm just lazy. 

I do not feel any resentment.  I just wish to encourage people to think and read critically.  And, to read the mystics.  When we do, then we find almost every one of them was marginalized in their time.

The other thing we need to keep in mind is "we know a tree by its fruit."  Just because a monk or meditation teacher uses the term 'jhana' does not mean that they have had the experience.  They might just be suffering from religious psychosis.  So, if that person does not manifest or understand the other superior fruit of attainment (maha-phala), then most likely that teacher is either playing games for donations, or suffering from religious psychosis.

I made contact with you because I saw on the internet that Abhayagiri sabotaged your retreat at Bell Springs and I watched your videos.  Love those videos.  As you know, I was mistreated by them myself.  I spent about 4 years hanging out with them, and in that time I had a few experiences and gleaned some information about how their system works.  They are secretive.  They are not allowed to confide with a lay person about any of their meditation experiences or attainments.  The lay people or anyone who isn't in their inner circle are left in the dark and are considered outsiders.  Sometimes, they'll hint, make an off hand remark or let slip something.  Its because of these occasional lapses of theirs that I came to these conclusions.  If you hang out with a group of people long enough, even with the secrecy, you can pick up on the politics and power plays that run their lives.  I believe some people were experiencing altered states of consciousness, whatever that's called. Most weren't.  Those that weren't were frustrated and envious of those that were.  It's not easy being a monk or nun. They called these blissed out altered states Jhana.  When they were under the influence of one of these altered states, their face was flush, their body language changed and even their voices were different.  This is how I could tell who was in the groove and who wasn't.  I agree with you that you'd think experiences like these would make them better people.  They were nice enough but I feel they needed work.  Sometimes I was really disappointed and even appalled by their behavior, but who understands the depth of character it takes to be completely enlightened.  Maybe it takes a while.  Lets face it, they have spent decades meditating on a daily basis,  It only makes sense that a few of them would stumble upon the path and its fruit.  I do appreciate you and fully admit you're superior experience and scholarship and am deeply grateful.  It's always a delight to read your post and know your in charge of things.

As you provide evidence, we can only say "we know a tree by its fruit."  And, the fruit there seems pretty rotten.  I had similar experiences with the Buddhist Society of Western Australia.  So, I had to conclude the same thing for them.  They use the term, but they do not walk the talk.

I get that we all want to believe that there are more enlightened people than there are in this world.  After all it took me 30 years to realize that I was not going to find anyone to guide me, and I had to figure it out for myself.

We also often have unrealistic ideas of what an enlightened person is, and acts.  For instance after spending a few years digging into the suttas, I realized why Siddhartha Gautama is called the "Compassionate Buddha."  It is marketing hyp.  Because the suttas clearly show little compassion coming from him.  If we were to see the real person that we have all been raised to look up to as the enlightened one of the past, I am certain we would all be disappointed; because difficulties of life has a way of making us all look real, and not fantastic.  I am certain those who have met me just found an old man in ill health, who loses his temper when working on his old wreck of a car, just like everyone else.

[DDawson]

Nothing is out of place.  Everything is perfect even if it might be something we don't want at the time.  It doesn't know its wrong,  It's just manifesting its nature.  Wishing you the best.

[kiddhamma]

"As you provide evidence, we can only say "we know a tree by its fruit."  And, the fruit there seems pretty rotten.  I had similar experiences with the Buddhist Society of Western Australia.  So, I had to conclude the same thing for them.  They use the term, but they do not walk the talk."

What experiences did you have with them? It seems as though they definitely do walk the walk from what I can gather, but hey maybe I'm wrong.

[Jhanananda]

I was invited to join their forum, where I was soon flamed and band, and I found no evidence of other superior fruit, other than obsessing over one experience in the range of the 8 stages of samadhi, and misinterpreting that transition from the 4th to 5th stage as just the first stage. So, why would I think that them as walking their talk.  When any contemplative, who claims to bare the superior fruit of attainment (maha-phala) acts as part of the community of other contemplatives who bare the superior fruit of attainment (maha-phala), then we can say, this person truly has attained the superior fruit of attainment (maha-phala).

[Frederick]

So strange. 100% of my interactions with Jeffrey have been pleasant.

I figured that one of his best traits as a teacher is that he _listens_ to figure out your problem before giving the cookie cutter advice.

He never trolls or says anything hurtful.

Disagreement ought not to be a reason for banning. It's healthy.

[Alexander]

Many of these boards have banned Jeff, as he actually teaches the path to enlightenment.

[Jhanananda]

Thank-you, friends, follinge and Alexander.  You speak from experience.