Author Topic: Bodhi vs. Thanissaro morality debate  (Read 4228 times)

Tad

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Bodhi vs. Thanissaro morality debate
« on: January 31, 2022, 10:12:26 AM »
Some years ago there was a written debate between Bodhi and Thanissaro about morality. In short, Bodhi argued that the precepts were intended as training rules and under certain exceptional circumstances it might be morally justifiable for lay people to commit killing in defense or lie. Monks or those fully committed to dhamma were out of the question of course. He used the war against the nazis in WWII as an example. In contrast, Thanissaro maintained a hard line position claiming that there should be no exceptions for dhamma. What would be your opinion?

Jhanananda

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Re: Bodhi vs. Thanissaro morality debate
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2022, 12:27:48 PM »
Considering neither Bodhi nor Thanissaro have demonstrated depth in meditation or any of its superior fruit, we can only expect a superficial answer from either of them. When we consider someone who has developed depth in meditation we should expect someone who would not participate in war, and would leave the insane human community to their violent ends and go off into the wilderness never to be heard from again leaving everything behind if necessary.
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Alexander

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Re: Bodhi vs. Thanissaro morality debate
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2022, 12:19:48 AM »
To answer your question I would invoke the Bhagavad Gita, and the conversation between Arjuna and Krishna at the beginning over "what is one's dharma (duty)?" At the start of the poem, Arjuna says that after reflecting on the unity of being, he does not wish to spill blood or be a warrior any longer. He wants to renounce violence altogether. Perhaps surprisingly, Krishna admonishes Arjuna for refusing to fight: and the god goes into a long defense of why it is his duty to take up the sword and go into battle. Otherwise, says Krishna, he is unmanly and cowardly, and is betraying his country and destiny by refusing to fight.

I believe the Arjuna character is vocalizing the intuition many of us feel from our higher nature: that war, destruction, and violence are evil and futile. Arjuna states the desire to give up war. He feels he should become a mendicant, and dedicate himself to peace, philosophy, and spiritual matters, which is a noble end.

If we look at the history of war, most were waged for the benefit of a small number of rich people; or they were initiated based on misunderstanding or prejudice. They involve mutilation, PTSD, brain injury, and the deaths of young people and family members. Most wars end in an impasse with little to nothing accomplished. World War I is one famous example.

If we invoke Christianity, Christ vocalizes the same themes as The Gita. In one section he says to "turn the other cheek" and to "not resist the evildoer": a call to the discipline of pacifism. He says "those who live by the sword will die by the sword": a correct prescription for the fate of the violent. Later, however, Christ changes. He says to his disciples that those who "did not have a purse should get one," and if one did not have a sword one should "sell one's cloak and buy one."

I believe Christ is getting at an important formula for the spiritual life. There is a practice of self-discipline that for a long time requires nonviolence. This practice overcomes something deep and unethical in human nature. However, when the discipline is complete, which occurs when the master states, the strict following of this changes. I believe this is why Christ later says it is OK for normal morality to re-assert itself, and for it to be OK to practice self-defense.

The moral complexity and ambiguity of the answer - the struggle to identify and achieve justice - is the human condition. It is one's duty to defend one's country if it is invaded. The path of the soldier can be noble and virtuous. However, the unity of being affirms the immorality of violence and bloodshed, and that those who live by the sword will die by it.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2022, 12:43:36 AM by Alexander »
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Tad

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Re: Bodhi vs. Thanissaro morality debate
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2022, 10:58:10 AM »
Jhananda & Alexander,

thank you for your replies. They are different, but both contain certain aspects of wisdom. I think Jhananda's response resonates more with Thanissaro, while Alexander's with Bodhi. Jhananda makes a good point that the only real solution is to completely dissociate from regular human life. This world cannot be fixed. But then we have people that are too entangled by various responsibilities to drop everything and go to seclusion. For example, parents with little kids, people caring for their agent parents, etc. If there was some sort of fanatical armed gang roaming around enslaving people like we have seen recently in the middle east, would there be moral justification for lay people to commit to armed defense?

Jhanananda

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Re: Bodhi vs. Thanissaro morality debate
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2022, 01:04:19 PM »
You ask a good question Tad, which I have been pondering.  While I don't really have an issue with self-defense; nonetheless the world is an insane place and participating in it at any level just drags one down, so I am with Siddhartha, give it all up and don't participate.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2022, 12:56:55 PM by Jhanananda »
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Tad

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Re: Bodhi vs. Thanissaro morality debate
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2022, 10:25:44 AM »
Jhananda, you make very good point. Somewhere in the suttas Buddha said that all beings except for arahants were mentally insane to a lesser or greater degree. It is just so easy to get entangled in this world while we are young and high on good health and fantasies. Then when reality kicks in it is sometimes too late.

Jhanananda

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Re: Bodhi vs. Thanissaro morality debate
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2022, 02:33:39 PM »
Tad, you put it very well
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