Gautama Buddha and the chronology of his jhana/samadhi experiences

[Rodan]

Reading a bit of Buddha's history leaves me a bit confused as to his experiences of the jhana during the formation of his spiritual destiny. It is mentioned he learned several of the arupa-jhana's from two teachers. Then during his enlightenment he realizes his first jhana experience as a youth to have been the first real step towards the cessation of suffering and enlightenment in ones life. So was he practicing the jhanas and then did not realize their utility or did he not require cycling through the jhanas to reach the formless realms?

[Alexander]

It is quite difficult to say as we are trying to piece together the complete story from 500 BC. We are also working with imperfect sources. It is at least easier to do this for the Buddha than it is for Christ (who, though he lived around 0 AD, has even fewer reputable sources we can use to derive information on the historical person).

From what I remember, it sounds like he had an out-of-body experience or something similar early in his journey. If I recall from the suttas, he gives the names of two teachers he followed early on and with them examined this experience. Then, there's ANOTHER sutta where he explains ANOTHER path he pursued. In this sutta he tells the story of when he was young. In this story, he sat peacefully & serenely under a tree next to a field, and here in his youth he felt the experience of joy. This joy is what he narrows in on and values as a manifestation of the jhanas- the self-arising joy that is a product of mystic transformation.

I know Jeff and the others here are major advocates of the jhanas, but having studied them in detail I confess I still find them very confusing and unclear. The distinctions between "jhana 1," "jhana 2," "jhana 3," etc are not specific or concrete enough. I do feel Jeff's translations of the Pali words is the closest approximation to what the early Buddhists were getting at. However, I prefer the model presented by Teresa of Avila in Las Moradas, where she explains progress in the mystic life as part of a larger unfolding life-process, that involves personal struggles as well as the contemplative life, and culminates in the state of self-perfection.

[Jhanananda]

Thank you Rodan for posing your interesting question and thanks to Alexander for providing a response. I admit there is definitely confusion in the Buddhist community regarding a definition of the 8th fold. It has been my experience that all 8 stages of samadhi are critical and the confusion that lead to this question is the 4 jhanas are necessary developmental stages for the 4 avatars, or higher stages of samadhi.

These 2 links should clear up the confusion

The 8 stages of samadhi
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/recognizingabsorption.htm

The characteristic manifestations of absorption, Jhana-Nimitta
https://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/jhananimitta.htm

[Tad]

Good question. Makes me wonder what kind of meditation he practiced under that teacher that he went to arupa jhanas without going through 1st jhana.

[Jhanananda]

I'm reminded today we have movements involved with the OOBE, but do not really promote meditation practice, or even demonstrate an understanding of the 4 jhanas, so, yes, people can go OOBE with various cognitive practices, but doing so does not lead to freedom from suffering.

[Rodan]

I'm reminded today we have movements involved with the OOBE, but do not really promote meditation practice, or even demonstrate an understanding of the 4 jhanas, so, yes, people can go OOBE with various cognitive practices, but doing so does not lead to freedom from suffering.

I still even doubt that many of them can really OOBE reliably or with any sort of veridicity. Their OOBE's always have some level of distortion or lack of lucid control, which suggests just a regular dream or a semilucid dream at best.

I think reaching the arupa-jhana's or more specifically OOBE's still require the same level of depth as getting to first jhana. Whether or not Buddha simply skipped first jhana or cycled through it quickly without noting it's significance is another story.

I think the rupa-jhana's are far more important than most people understand. Not to say that one should stay at them but it seems a lot of traditions, especially tantric ones utilize the rupa-jhana's for the attenuation of suffering as Jhanananda mentioned; the first jhana in particular seems quite involved in the production of various kundalini experiences.

[Rodan]

It is quite difficult to say as we are trying to piece together the complete story from 500 BC. We are also working with imperfect sources. It is at least easier to do this for the Buddha than it is for Christ (who, though he lived around 0 AD, has even fewer reputable sources we can use to derive information on the historical person).

From what I remember, it sounds like he had an out-of-body experience or something similar early in his journey. If I recall from the suttas, he gives the names of two teachers he followed early on and with them examined this experience. Then, there's ANOTHER sutta where he explains ANOTHER path he pursued. In this sutta he tells the story of when he was young. In this story, he sat peacefully & serenely under a tree next to a field, and here in his youth he felt the experience of joy. This joy is what he narrows in on and values as a manifestation of the jhanas- the self-arising joy that is a product of mystic transformation.

I know Jeff and the others here are major advocates of the jhanas, but having studied them in detail I confess I still find them very confusing and unclear. The distinctions between "jhana 1," "jhana 2," "jhana 3," etc are not specific or concrete enough. I do feel Jeff's translations of the Pali words is the closest approximation to what the early Buddhists were getting at. However, I prefer the model presented by Teresa of Avila in Las Moradas, where she explains progress in the mystic life as part of a larger unfolding life-process, that involves personal struggles as well as the contemplative life, and culminates in the state of self-perfection.

I do agree with you Alexander, the distinctions between the Jhana's are sometimes bizarre to me. I think one has to look at them wholly, Some are described in terms of their primary factor such as piti/sukha etc. Then in other sutta's the Buddha uses things like "lack of speech" etc as indicators. It gets even more confusing when one learns that even bliss can continue to persist into the 4th jhana where equanimity is supposed to reign. I must do more reading to be honest.

Currently going through Jhanananda's articles.

[Jhanananda]

I still even doubt that many of them can really OOBE reliably or with any sort of veridicity. Their OOBE's always have some level of distortion or lack of lucid control, which suggests just a regular dream or a semilucid dream at best.

I agree, and when we recognize that few OOBE advocates are contemplatives we have to question the authenticity of their claim of an OOBE.  I find most of these people are confusing an OOBE with mental projection.

I think reaching the arupa-jhana's or more specifically OOBE's still require the same level of depth as getting to first jhana. Whether or not Buddha simply skipped first jhana or cycled through it quickly without noting it's significance is another story.

I think the rupa-jhana's are far more important than most people understand. Not to say that one should stay at them but it seems a lot of traditions, especially tantric ones utilize the rupa-jhana's for the attenuation of suffering as Jhanananda mentioned; the first jhana in particular seems quite involved in the production of various kundalini experiences.

Yes, I agree that the jhanas are essential and developmental, but I would argue one will have more access to the OOBE if one is more consistent at arriving at the 4th jhana, because the suttas describe the 4 ayatanas following the description of the 4 jhanas, and my experience supports this hypothesis from my experience.