OCD/Anxiety and Meditation

[Michael]

Hello, everyone,

I'm curious to know if anyone has dealt with OCD and anxiety flare-ups surrounding, intertwined with, and/or because of meditation practice. About a year ago, I discarded all indecision about what method I would use for meditation and planned a ten-day home retreat. Leading up to that retreat, I noticed that I sometimes felt spacey and disoriented after meditation, which made me worry that somehow, for me, meditation would actually cause harm instead of good. At this point it became almost inevitable that panic and anxiety would plague my upcoming retreat, because I knew my own tendencies.

I have a bit of a history with anxiety and had a cannabis-induced panic attack about five years ago, which consisted of me fearing I would never leave the drug experience, fearing I would never stop fearing, and then fearing I would be locked in an endless cycle of fear of fear of fear, etc., etc., etc. I never touched cannabis again, and it took a long time to stop feeling the aftershocks of that experience. I mention this because I fell into a similar pattern with last year's retreat: I began worrying about meditation causing me harm due to my own quirky brain and history, and then worried that worrying itself would cause me such stress throughout the retreat that I actually would do real damage. During the retreat itself I ended up see-sawing between states of calm and optimism and sudden, sharp pangs of dread and despair. My mind seemed to be saying "see, this is nice," and then, "but now you're back in the bad place! You'll always be back in the bad place!" over and over again.

After the retreat, I felt panic at the slightest pull of my attention from an unexpected source, and I worried that I would go insane. My OCD, which was never professionally diagnosed but which I'm fairly certain I have, got worse. I briefly feared I would hurt my mom or my mom's dog, not because I had any urge to, but because I have such love and affection for both of them and it would be so horrible if I did that. On the other hand, slowly I began to notice that I did not engage my panic reflex as fully as I had before the retreat. My mind would leap from one fear to another to another: harming myself, harming others, going fully insane, etc., but I would not fear my own panic response and make it worse. It was like the outer layer of the process had been peeled away. A recognition of my panic developed and said, "we know what this is" and it would subside faster. I would sometimes be hit with the fear and dread in my daily meditation, but other times I would sense it coming and manage to redirect myself in time. The fear and dread usually arose when I felt meditation was going well. Finally, on a few occasions I noticed an awareness of my own fear and panic response as it was happening in daily life. Sometimes, early parts of the process that I had formerly been blind to were visible to me and I disengaged them. These experiences were encouraging. I thought, "this must be a minor insight into nonself, impermanence, suffering."

More recently, I've been experiencing a particularly stressful time in my life due to outside circumstances, but my worrying and ruminating has backslid. I meditated for two hours one day and was able to recognize the feeling of my own mind grasping for the next thing to worry about. I was able, during meditation, to cut this process short, but I realized that this is such a fundamental part of what my waking mind does that I don't know how to stop this in everyday life. I can meditate for two or three hours and eventually discard thoughts, for the most part, but once I jump back into the world and the conventional mind arises and sets in motion, I have little ability to stop the constant worries and obsessions.

In general I feel like my mind is engaged in a vicious fight. I have OCD tendencies and it feels as if they DO NOT LIKE my meditation practice and will do anything to stop it, even if it means telling me that meditation is making me crazy or a danger to others. (I've never hurt anyone in my life and I try not to kill insects in my apartment.) I guess what I am seeking here is some advice from anyone who feels they understand my situation from experience, or at least experience dealing with people like myself. I've been trying to make changes to my life that will allow me to take the five precepts as well as afford retreats with teachers I trust. (Ajahn Brahm, Pau Auk Sayadaw, Shaila Catherine, etc.)

Any suggestions or comments are most appreciated,

Michael

[Alexander]

Hello Michael and welcome to the forum

Yes, what you are referring to is a part of the spiritual crisis. It is a fact that the sincere pursuit of the spiritual life leads inevitably to this. This is why they describe this stage as the "descent into hell" in literature, such as in the tales of Orpheus, Dante, Hercules, Odysseus, Aeneas, and others. The instinct you have that your "OCD mind" fears meditation is correct - because this side of you knows that if you remain on this path you will eventually overcome it. However, it will be a long struggle and involve much turmoil to get there.

It sounds like you prefer the Buddhist tradition: this makes sense and is the path many westerners take. Though I encourage you to expand the # of traditions you are receptive to, as there are invaluable resources in the Christian, Hindu, Hellenic, and other cultures that could be of great use to you.

Buddhism does allude to the spiritual crisis -- it appears in the ascetic period of the life of Siddhartha, appears in the doctrine of "dukkha," and appears in the idea of "taking sanctuary in the Buddha, dharma, and sangha." However, the greatest psychologist of the spiritual crisis is John of the Cross, so I would recommend exploring him as he discusses these topics in The Ascent of Mt. Carmel and (the later part of this process) in The Dark Night of the Soul.

I have some OCD tendencies which I have overcome over the years. I think one issue with our current western psychiatry is it embraces a "fixed" or "static" understanding of mental illness. In other words, if you are diagnosed with something it is taught there is no way you can ever work out of it. This seems to be the preferred perspective of the DSM, though they are gradually softening this with the new doctrine now of Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy.

I prefer the Jungian perspective... While there are of course exceptions, Jung saw mental illness as primarily a manifestation of internal spiritual issues, and argued that many of these pathologies could be overcome through self-observation, self-improvement, self-growth, and introspection. At the same time Jung acknowledged how difficult this process was - thus the idea of "integrating the shadow" with all its struggles and turmoils. (It is not by accident the myths use the allegory of the "descent into hell.")

I believe with OCD the first thing they recommend is to physically stop yourself from doing the repetitive behavior. In other words, if you have a compulsion to go back and check the lock on your door, you prevent yourself from doing this. Repeatedly doing this over and over gradually rewires the pathological tendencies that have built in the mind.

The ruminating is more difficult and will likely require an alchemical change (getting into Jung again). There is no easy way to overcome this. You must descend into the fire of yourself, let all your memories and internal forces putrefy, and transform that "prima materia," first matter, into the new man of the stage of Illumination. (Hopefully this is not too much jargon for you. ) There are many parables in the history of religion that you can look to for guidance.

I hope you will continue on your path and keep us posted on your progress.

[Michael]

Thank you, Alexander,

St. John of the Cross's writings sound interesting. In general, understanding the Buddhist system as the Buddha expounded it seems such a gargantuan task that I've viewed other mystics' writings (Patanjali, St. John, Dogen) to be less important for the moment. I'm in the middle of the Middle-Length Discourses and repeatedly find relevant advice there, and eventually I will re-read it all to consolidate my knowledge. However, I read slowly and work full-time.

There is one passage I happened to stumble upon a few days ago that bore particular relevance to my struggles with rumination and obsession as well as my little moments of insight. From MN.20:

"Bhikkus, when a bhikku is giving attention to some sign, and owing to that sign there arise in him evil unwholesome thoughts connected with desire, with hate, and with delusion, when he gives attention to some other sign connected with what is wholesome, any such evil unwholesome thoughts are abandoned in him and subside, and with the abandoning of them his mind becomes steadied internally, quieted, brought to singleness, and concentrated. When he examines the danger in those thoughts, or when he tries to forget those thoughts and deny attention to them, or when he gives attention to stilling the thought-formation of those thoughts, or when, with teeth clenched and tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth he beats down, constrains, and crushes mind with mind, any such evil unwholesome thoughts are abandoned in him and his mind becomes steadied internally, quieted, brought to singleness, and concentrated. This bhikku is then called a master of the courses of thought. He will think whatever thought he wishes to think and he will not think any thought he does not wish to think. He has severed craving, flung off the fetters, and with the complete penetration of conceit he has made an end of suffering."

This was so encouraging to read. Currently I feel like I'm sometimes lifted out of the maze of my own thoughts (the courses of thought) to see a section of it from a bird's eye view, but then dropped back into a different part of the maze that I don't know. I've experienced enough moments of insight to understand what it's like to experience the movement of mind in its pure form--to be able to distinguish the movement, which only happens in handful of ways, from the content, which is always different--but I can't do this all the time. And as this process continues, my insights seem more profound and my OCD also gets worse when I've lost myself.

Anyway, I'm rambling a bit. Thank you for your ear and your support. For the record, I also don't engage in rituals. This may be why I was never diagnosed. I did little rituals when I was a child that no one really knew about, but I outgrew that. The ruminations, obsession, and superstitious thinking are mostly how this manifests.

Curious to hear anyone else's experience as well.

Cheers,
Michael

[rougeleader115]

Hello Michael, welcome to the forum 🙏🏾.

I was almost diagnosed as schizophrenic and bipolar with some form of PTSD as a teenager. I have struggled with very intense dissociative states and emotions through my life. My partner of 15 years also has OCD and attempts to negotiate this path in her own way. She finds meditation is very good for her OCD and psyche when she can actually relax and get into it. But other times if she is already in an obsessive state, it can often make it worse. I think this would be common with most mental illnesses, or at least it was for mine.

But in my experience as I’ve continued meditating, I was able to carry my good meditative mental states and awareness as well as blissful calming energy with me all day. From there it has been a lot of releasing internal thought spirals, avoiding triggering or abusive situations, and staying present and relaxed with the charisms in my attention. It has taken me a few years but I can honestly say I feel like the negative parts of me are just being swallowed up by the constant bliss and relaxed and centered mind. I’m not “cured”, but I am personally more joyful and relaxed than I have ever been in my entire life. I do not spiral in anxiety or depression almost ever anymore. Even when life is just downright unpalatable, even if I feel those emotions, the buzz of charisms and mental releasing never seem to stop.

I feel if you continue your practice and investigating mystic texts, as you already stated, you will already being doing a lot for dealing with your OCD. Of course please listen to your intuition, especially when your mental states are not well. But building a relaxed concentration on the charisms and finding a personal connection/understanding to the mystics is my go to when dealing with my mental illness. I hope my post doesn’t imply ease at all because it has been an incredibly difficult journey that I know I’m not through. But I will state that I am finding a peace and love beyond my suffering in this life. And it just keeps on deepening.

Be Well,
Rougeleader

[Tad]

Hi Michael and welcome,

I've suffered from anxiety and tension during my lifetime quite a bit. In my experience meditation has been very helpful. I would not have survived without it. But at the same time I have to mention that the process of healing has been very slow. It can take years to melt and release deep tension blocks from the body. I also noticed that typically things get worse before they improve. Additionally, I find that it is very important to live a healthy lifestyle. That is, exercise routinely, eat good foods, limit exposure to social media and other distractions to the minimum. If possible, avoid intoxicants and any kind of sexual pleasure or at least take very very long breaks from those things. Sexual pleasure specifically is a huge drain of vital energy that you need for meditation and facing all the trauma you have accumulated.     

[Jhanananda]

Welcome, Michael. I am sorry to hear of your OCD, but mental trauma really is par for the material existence. You have received some excellent advice here and I have little to add.

I happen to have PTSD from severe child abuse and it was my inspiration to take up a contemplative life, which has been a tremendous help, but one should keep in mind the trauma that causes mental illness never goes away. We contemplatives just develop skillful means for dealing with trauma and its results.

My method for dealing with life's many traumas is to simply keep my mind still by keeping it in the present moment and,  as Rougeleader said, keep attention upon the charisms.

[Michael]

Hello, everyone,

I wanted to post an update about my practice.

In short, I feel I am making difficult and gradual progress. I've noticed that achieving a modicum of concentration during meditation often lifts my mood during the session and for a little while after, but also causes a plummet later on (around 2 to 3 hours later). This often leaves me vulnerable to obsessions, anxieties, and dark thoughts. Gradually I come out of these moods, especially if I happen to be working. However, they're challenging, to say the least, and sometimes they're so intensely unpleasant that they make me feel like they can't possibly continue without driving me fully and truly crazy. Intrusive thoughts will enter during these times, often hypochondriacal, and I've tended to move from one imminent catastrophe to another. (I will disclaim here that I've never had suicidal ideation during these lows, in case anyone was worried.)

Yet, while I used to totally believe in these imagined catastrophes, now it seems that there is more of a skeptical instinct that counters them. It's as if I've been put on an accelerated course on the habits of my own mind and that by rotating through subjects more quickly I can better discern the mental habit that reaches for them. Essentially, I think I can see better that what I'm experiencing is mind, not reality (although the insight is not complete or always there). On a few occasions recently I experienced a buzzing sound in my head while meditating, especially when I felt concentrated, and afterwards I worried that I was somehow inducing epileptic activity. But then the skeptical reflex said, "You've worried about so many things that didn't happen. This feels a lot like one of those." Then I proceeded somewhat uncomfortably with my other business, not fully satisfied that my fear was unwarranted, but not certain of its truth either. I suspect it's an intermediate zone between being gripped with panic and being free of fear. Which I'll take.

I should also say that although I may be experiencing what are here called "charisms," they aren't accompanied by joy and bliss yet. So far it's just an audible, high-pitched, not unpleasant vibration in my head. When I first began meditating about ten years ago now, I had undeniable jhanic experiences saturated with inner light and joy and bliss, but they were silent, so I actually wonder if this noise is in the same class of phenomena, being so different.

Finally, it bears mentioning that when I had those initial experiences, I was on a higher dose of the SSRI that I'm currently on, which I can't discount as a possible cause of the difference. I also wonder if the ups and downs I seem to experience due to meditation are from serotonin instability, perhaps the brain releasing serotonin during meditation, experiencing a refractory period, and then taking a long time to recirculate more. (I'm a very good armchair scientist.)

Overall, I'm a bit all over the place, and it's been a difficult path, but I have reason to believe I'm reaching a threshold in my meditation. I believe I'm starting to see the choice, during meditation, between all of my fears related to and about meditation--all of my hesitations to absorb--and the breath itself. I think I'm getting better at boldly choosing the breath more often. Just the other day, after meditation, I experienced a random jolt of what can only be described as joy minutes after I had concluded my meditation. The same day I had ideas for creative projects and intellectual insights that reminded me of when I was younger and frankly on more drugs. Yet the inevitable crash did happen. If anyone has any experiences that are similar to mine, or any comments that may be helpful, I'd love to hear them.

Best wishes to all,
Michael

[Jhanananda]

It is good to hear from you again, Michael. You pose common issues for people who take up a contemplative life, so thank-you so much for your post.

1) When I have a "crash" a few hours of meditation I either take a nap or meditate again to lift up my interior mental landscape.

2) To deal with the insanity that the mind can present to me I just return to keeping my mind still and upon the present moment.

3) It is good that you are exercising critical thinking to gain some mental stability.

4) I am not surprised that you are experiencing some of the charisms, especially charismatic sound.  Keep it up.

5) as for lack of the bliss factor in your meditations, keep in mind that the description of samma-samadhi in the suttas includes bliss and joy in the first jhana, and perhaps you will recall the sutta that discussed Siddharta Gautama's night of enlightenment described him recalling a previous experience of samma-samadhi which triggered his entry into samma-samadhi . So, if you can do that, then let us know if that worked for you. If not, then try to recall a joyful experience, or try listening to devotional music, or anything that triggers interior joy, and let us know how it works for you.

[Michael]

Thank you for your response, Jhananda.

I'm curious to know: about how often do meditators with a practice of about an hour per day, in your experience, end up experiencing psychotic phenomena, like auditory hallucinations? How do we parse problematic auditory phenomena from charismatic auditory phenomena? I ask because lately, roughly corresponding to when I started to hear buzzing in meditation, I'm also hearing weird phenomena when falling asleep. Sometimes it sounds like someone making weird noises with their mouth or babbling. I guess I don't want to shrug off these things entirely as I've read there is a small portion of unlucky people who do develop psychotic symptoms from meditation practice. Since you've had many students and conversations I thought I might get your take.

[KriyaYogi]

Michael I am sorry to hear about your suffering.  I am a 20 year daily meditator who studied under Jeff in the early 2000s.  Please feel free to write me a private message at any time on the forum or send an email to DavidMWhitehouse1@gmail.com if you need assistance and I will try to help!   

I haven't checked the forum much lately as I have been abiding with my Goddess, but I do receive emails about private messages
and respond to those.

  -David

[Jhanananda]

Thank you, Michael, for posing your question regarding apparent psychotic phenomena that might be the product of a meditation practice.  First we should understand that psychiatry believes all observed nonphysical phenomena is evidence, or even proof, of psychosis, and this goes back to Freud who believed Teresa of Avila was severely psychotic.  And, we should also understand that William James' "Varieties of Religious Experience" was the work of one of his PhD students who as a Quaker, who resented the reports of charismatic phenomena that was commonly reported by Quakers, and thus his entire thesis was to disprove charismatic phenomena, and William James being one of the early Psychiatrists was, like Freud, only interested in proving charismatic phenomena is nothing other than psychotic phenomena, and the motivation of the Scotish university that hosted William James' lectures which became the "Varieties of Religious Experience" were only interested in proving charismatic phenomena is nothing other than psychotic phenomena, because that university was a seminary for training Presbyterian ministers, and they wanted to discount mystics. Consequently, we have a lot of work ahead of ourselves to unpack.

So, yes, we have a lot of charismatic phenomena reported here, and some of that charismatic phenomena could be coming from the lower plains of existence, so some of it could be originating with demons. Thus, we need to learn to filter charismatic phenomena. If it is associated with bliss, joy and ecstasy, then it is heavenly; whereas, if it is based upon anger, fear, harm, then it has a demonic origin.  And, I have found that if I begin and end every day with deep meditation that produces bliss, joy and ecstasy, then I am likely to resonate with heavenly sources; however, there is still a possibility always of encounters in hellish domains, but if I renew myself in deep meditation every day, then I have the resilience to weather the occasional hellish encounter.

[Michael]

First of all, thank you, Jhananda, for expounding on a topic that many meditation teachers wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole.

I don't want to exaggerate my experiences with what might be the demonic or reinforce any narrative of myself as a victim or target, but in the past I have suspected that I've had at least one negative entity clinging to me. In fact during a stay-at-home meditation retreat, while asleep in bed, I literally saw and felt an entity lying on the bed next to me and grabbing onto me. Interestingly this was the best retreat experience I've had, and no auditory phenomena happened then.

In any event, I'm not going to view myself as captive to or powerless against such entities. I prefer to think of them as an interesting possibility.

A more mundane possibility which I've wondered about is that I'm in an awkward place in my spiritual growth in which meditation produces increased concentration but no joy or bliss, and the concentration gets directed by habit to fears and anxieties. These in turn cause a lot of stress and may be affecting my sleep and my transition into and out of sleep (which is when most of these phenomena happen). Of course both explanations aren't mutually exclusive; I could just be looking at the demons that have always resided in me, whether you take that metaphorically or metaphysically.

I still have a deep suspicion that by continuing to return to the brrath and living a virtuous life I will overcome all of this. I've read enough testimonials of people being drawn into life-changingly deep states of samadhi despite being intensely afraid the previous moment to know that progress can happen in fits and starts and may not look the way we'd expect. And it may be the case that (as I may have mentioned before) something in me is viciously rebelling against my practice now that I've struck upon a sure method.

Any thoughts are always welcome.

[Jhanananda]

First of all, thank you, Jhananda, for expounding on a topic that many meditation teachers wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole.

You are welcome

I don't want to exaggerate my experiences with what might be the demonic or reinforce any narrative of myself as a victim or target, but in the past I have suspected that I've had at least one negative entity clinging to me. In fact during a stay-at-home meditation retreat, while asleep in bed, I literally saw and felt an entity lying on the bed next to me and grabbing onto me. Interestingly this was the best retreat experience I've had, and no auditory phenomena happened then.

In any event, I'm not going to view myself as captive to or powerless against such entities. I prefer to think of them as an interesting possibility.

It is inevitable that all mystics must walk through hell on their way to the heavenly domains.  So, your attitude of curiosity is good. As for the apparent demon residing in bed with you while you were asleep and on retreat could very well be so, or it could have been someone who was dreaming about you, or a more likely explanation is you were out-of-body in bed next to your physical body, which you detected as foreign.

A more mundane possibility which I've wondered about is that I'm in an awkward place in my spiritual growth in which meditation produces increased concentration but no joy or bliss, and the concentration gets directed by habit to fears and anxieties. These in turn cause a lot of stress and may be affecting my sleep and my transition into and out of sleep (which is when most of these phenomena happen). Of course both explanations aren't mutually exclusive; I could just be looking at the demons that have always resided in me, whether you take that metaphorically or metaphysically.

You make here good points, and I would like to point out that according to the suttas the first jhana is characterized by Pitti and sukha, which are commonly translated in ecstatic terms such as bliss and joy.  Also, I keep coming back to the sutta that describes Siddhartha's night of enlightenment in which he recalled a time in his childhood when he first tried meditation and he had a profound experience. So, I cannot urge contemplatives more to do the same thing every time we meditate. And, if we cannot recall a single experience of depth in meditation, then to try something to inspire feelings of universal love, which I interpret as 'bliss' and doing so triggers an emotional response of joy. Methods of inspiring bliss and joy before meditation can be as simple as listening to inspiring devotional or contemplative music before sitting down to meditate.

I still have a deep suspicion that by continuing to return to the brrath and living a virtuous life I will overcome all of this. I've read enough testimonials of people being drawn into life-changingly deep states of samadhi despite being intensely afraid the previous moment to know that progress can happen in fits and starts and may not look the way we'd expect. And it may be the case that (as I may have mentioned before) something in me is viciously rebelling against my practice now that I've struck upon a sure method.

Any thoughts are always welcome.

I think most of us are conflicted in our spiritual journey if none other than we have all been misled by organized religion for thousands of years, so we have to think critically and study the mystics, and practice, and follow an ethical lifestyle that leads to depth in meditation, which I find the Noble Eightfold Path is an excellent description of, but is too often misunderstood by the Buddhist priesthood.

[bodhimind]

Hi Michael, something I've found useful before a sitting is to completely drop all identities of 'who you are' (what I interpret 'remembering when I meditated as a child' to feel like). I found that when I do that, with the intention to die completely in my sitting, it leads to a very easy transition into piti and sukha when I turn my attention to the auditory jhana-nimitta that is ringing. Before every sitting now, I tell myself to completely "die and surrender".

I also had a demonic encounter once before right in the same room which I was transitioning into supine meditation, which was blown away by a sudden random thought of "Jesus Christ". Almost characteristically there are some unwholesome states that are associated during a demonic encounter. I suspect to both 'demons' and 'Jesus Christ' to be more of thought forms, because it felt similar to astral travelling when one thought would warp you to a place in an instant. There was huge abundance of light which completely burst out of my heart center and I was sitting with no-body in a wide expanse of light. There was no room for any demonic encounter or fear or anxiety, just pure joy and bliss, no thought, deep equanimity. Just turning to the Holy Spirit is a wonderful solace.

[Michael]

Thank you, bodhimind. Actually what you say about choosing to die and surrender is very relevant to what I've been going through. I've found that if I muster resolve to completely absorb into the breath, whatever that means for "me" and "my" health and safety, I have an easier time in meditation. Since so many of my obstacles have centered on worry and fear of harm due to meditation, my danger zone seems to be when I'm about to meditate or am distracted during meditation. But the eye of the storm, the breath, is safe, so my resolve has been to go boldly into that.

I want to post a short update here and quickly describe two experiences I had today. During my session in the morning, the same thing happened that has been happening for a couple of weeks now, except it was a bit less auditory in nature: a vibratory feeling with a subtle auditory aspect sort of snuck up on me, but when I became aware of it, it stopped.  I cautiously hypothesize that this is a sign of concentration. In the same sitting I experienced the faintest hint of pleasure along with the breath, as I have been for the last couple of days, but this is very hard to coax along or make happen intentionally. However, what I'm calling the vibratory/auditory sign of concentration and the pleasure don't necessarily coincide. It is like weak components of the jhanic experience are showing up at different times. (My very first experiences were smoother ascents and the signs were simply general lights in my head that grew brighter).

I had the thought that this *something happening* might be a taste of cessation, or the promise of a taste, since it seemed to happen when there was no *me* to notice it. So I meditated again today, later, and again got a little pleasure, but this time fewer vibratory experienced and more weird auditory phenomena, which were more abrupt and scattered here and there, rather than the all-encompassing sound that sneaks up on me.

So the upshot is that I remain curious, encouraged, and a tiny bit fearful. I'm not always sure where this is headed. So I remind myself of my faith in the Buddha and the great masters, and that no matter what, I don't want to die having given this up. It really comes down to that.