Jhana through thinking

[Tad]

About a couple years ago I read some stuff by EBT focused Buddhist claiming that 1st jhana can be induced through skillful verbal thinking. We know that to get jhana we want to slow down any mental activity as much as possible. So I was not exactly sure about this. But not too long ago I had an interesting experience. One day I went to bed super tired and was just gently putting attention on breath to relax before falling a sleep. I could see random thought flowing. Then somehow thoughts drifted to spiritual topics. I thought about Buddha's teachings and how well calculated they were. I felt a strong sense of faith. The mind get totally absorbed by it. Then blissful sensations followed together with a stream of energy flowing through the body. It did not last long. But this direct experience allowed my to verify that thoughts can induce meditative states. I just have to emphasize that it was not some sort of intellectual play with ideas. It was relaxation combined with a genuine contemplation that got the mind completely absorbed. Unfortunately, I cannot repeat it intentionally. But I believe that someone with a wide bandwidth of concentration can use skillful thoughts to get to 1st jhana. Of course, for most people I think the easiest way to develop samadhi is definitely through something like breath meditation. Because no amount of skillful thinking will help, if one's mind is not relatively calm and body relaxed.

[Jhanananda]

Thank you, Tad, for posting your observations and reflections upon your meditation experience. My response has to start with I don't know what EBT focused Buddhism is.

Sadly, I cannot say that inn 50 years of Buddhist inspired meditation practice I cannot say I haver found a school of Buddhism that has even a close understanding of the 8 stages of samadhi.  The closest understanding that I can recognize is with Ajhan Brahm and his luminous orb, which he calls a "kasina," which he believes is the first jhana.  The problem I have with his assumption is he completely ignores all of the other observable phenomena that tends to occur leading up to the luminous orb, which I have experienced many times.

So, your comments regard verbal thinking as a stimulus of depth in meditation. First I would like to acknowledge that we who teach meditation and the Noble Eightfold Path should be aware and value that the 8th fold (samma-samadhi) is all about the skillful practice of meditation leads to an experience, and this is just not what I ever experienced in any of the schools of Buddhism I studied or practiced in. Secondly, we who teach meditation should also be willing to accept that there are many paths to samma-samadhi. So, I don't have a problem with internal verbal instructions leading you to depth in meditation.

But, we also have to understand that the first jhana is the first recognized step in depth in meditation, and it is not a fantastic experience such as having one's entire visual field being overwhelmed by a luminous sphere. So, let me refresh the conversation here with my experience of the first jhana which is simply finding the first stage of samma-samadhi: comforting, calming, a refuge. Also, we should remember that in the sutta that describes Siddhartha Gautama's night of enlightenment began with him recalling an earlier pleasant experience in meditation which he had when he was a child.  So, I think everyone seeking depth in meditation should begin each meditation session by recalling a past experience with one's experience with the deepest state achieved.

We get to the second jhana by savoring and taking refuge in the calm, comfort of the first jhana. And, we are in the second jhana when our mind becomes still. And, we get to the 3rd stage of depth when we have savored the calm depth experienced when the mind becomes still, then in that stillness various charismatic phenomena begin to rise, which are often described by observing the sensation of "energy" flowing through one's body. And, we get to the timeless experience of the 4th stage of samadhi by allowing our awareness to be fully absorbed in the movement of energy through one's body. So, it seems to me you are having a genuine experience of samma-samadhi.

[Alexander]

If you read the Inner Castle, Tad, Teresa of Avila's contemplation begins with this. I believe she talks about the "orison of prayer" which involves thought (early stages) and the "orison of quiet" which involves the cessation of thought Jeffrey describes.

In Teresa's model, the mystic reflects on one of the mysteries; ponders the crucifixion of Christ; or recalls an important experience from their life that may be traumatizing or horrifying. It is the beginning of the path of introversion. As you said, this eventually results in a breakthrough as self-knowledge increases and personal transformation occurs. A phantom joy appears.

That positive experience is indicative of the alchemical change that happens as the spiritual life deepens and the spiritual crisis is navigated. The mind loses its power. One gains a relative control over one's thoughts. As Jeffrey said, this then deepens into states of increasing quiet as well as charismatic phenomena.

I have been reading William Buhlman's book recently on the meridians (channels of energy in the body). It is interesting to me the sensations often arise in the hands and feet: the same sites as the Holy Wounds.

[Tad]

Hello Jhananda and Alexander,

Thanks for replies. EBT stands for Early Buddhist Texts which includes the suttas from pali cannon but not the commentaries and other later texts. Regarding Jhana through thinking, like you said skillful thoughts can only get up to 1st jhana, which is acknowledged by EBT Buddhists. Alexander provided a good example of what looks like the same method used by Christian mystics. Some Christians use prayer as a calming technique but I have not haf much success with this yet. Maybe doing something wrong. My mind is very sticky if I use too many words it starts clinging to them. Maybe with some practice it could work. However, breath seems to be the go to in any situation.

[Alexander]

You might enjoy this perspective Tad, your comment on the stickiness of thoughts made me think of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnWxCgiZfrc

[Jhanananda]

Thanks, Alexander, and Tad, for your contributions to this dialog.  Thanks, Tad, yes, as anyone who has observed my dialog, I am all about the Early Buddhist Texts without any of the commentary.  As I have stated before the commentary, such as the Vissudhimaga, are clearly misinformed and are the basis of the corruption of the Buddha dhamma.

Thanks, Alexander for your interesting comments. However, I did not find the YouTube useful.  The problem that I have with most commentary on meditation is they almost always come from people with no experience with depth in meditation, and this video did not demonstrate that Gary Weber had ever experienced a still mind.  Keep in mind "we know a tree by its fruit." The video just represented an overly intellectual investigation of thought with no experience of no thought.  In addition he perpetuates a delusional perception that brain waves have something to do with depth in meditation.  However, my findings are they have absolutely nothing to do with depth in meditation, but have everything to do with spacing out and day dreaming during meditation. Until meditation research studies people with demonstrated depth in meditation, instead of Buddhist priests who are more likely to be part of an entrenched and pretentious priesthood who have be part of the corruption of the Buddha dhamma for thousands of years as evidenced by the Vissudhimaga.

[Alexander]

Yes we have discussed him before. (We pointed out the absence of the OOBE in the dialogue I had with him, so that is at least one thing missing in his analysis.) I will say I have been able to recreate what he describes here: ie, “being a knowledge worker in a persistent thought-free state.” Whether the self-inquiry practice he and Ramana Maharshi prescribe leads to nondualism I cannot say. Though it seems no different from the “24/7 practice” engaged in by the mystic already.

How would you describe that state? As you are in a continuous state, Jeff, in which you do not have a sense of “I,” correct?

[Alexander]

hm ignorance is one of the fetters, isn't it? it would indicate Weber is not an arahant.

[Alexander]

Ah it just occurred to me Plato's teaching anamnesis (remembering what has been forgotten) is the same as the arahant's lack of ignorance. What a clever universe

[Jhanananda]

I justt keep my mind still and in the present moment most of the time, and contrary to pseudo nondualism, I have practiced daily meditation for 50 years, and find the daily practice of meditation to depth critical in my mystical experiences.  And, I should point out pseudo-nondualism has not reported the kinds of mystical phenomena that genuine mystics report.  So, in conclusion the daily practice of meditation is critical in the mystic's journey.

Thanks for bringing up Plato, as the Socrates character, the classical Greek period mystic he reported on, frequently exhibited trance-like behavior, which suggests to me Socrates most likely was a contemplative, but there is no record of that.

[Tad]

Hey David,

you mentioned in another discussion that sometimes you slip into 2nd jhana by watching a video by one of your favorite teachers. This is exactly the kind of phenomenon I had in mind when creating this thread. It is possible to induce jhana through sincere contemplation of spiritual themes and your experience is another example. It will probably not happen for someone that never deeply meditated in their life though.

[KriyaYogi]

My Kriya teacher who is 70 and has meditated since age 10ish gives what is called 'Shivapat' during public lectures.  He raises his hands, and claps, telling everyone to focus on his energy.  The goal of his 'Shivapat' is to give 'The still mind state of bliss with no thoughts'.  Usually he does this for 100-200 people in a public audience, many who haven't meditated before and then he polls the audience 'How many of you got the still mind state of no thoughts?'.  Usually 30-60% of people raise their hand.  If your mind is very disturbed it is hard for him to induce it.  Some people are more advanced by birth (like Jeff) who haven't meditated before and can get it easily.  I have gotten his Shivapat many times, when I was younger.  Seemed to help.

The teacher is Yogiraj Siddhanath if you care to look him up.  You can watch his videos and if you are sensitive probably feel the energies.  He is very safe to work with IMO, I don't think anyone who worked with him got targeted.

-David

[Tad]

Thanks. It is very interesting. I will investigate the teacher you mentioned.

[KriyaYogi]

Ok cool bro.  For me he was a great and safe instructor who helped me deepen my meditation trances.  If you have questions about him I'm here.

   -David