Maha Brahma / God

[Tad]

What do you think about this passage from suttas? Could it be that some of the great teachers of the past encountered Maha Brahma and concluded that it was the almighty God? However, according to Buddha, even Maha Brahma is part of the conditioned worlds and is not almighty.


"There are, bhikkhus, some recluses and brahmins who are eternalists in regard to some things and non-eternalists in regard to other things, and who on four grounds proclaim the self and the world to be partly eternal and partly non-eternal. And owing to what, with reference to what, do these honorable recluses and brahmins proclaim their views?

39. "There comes a time, bhikkhus, when after the lapse of a long period this world contracts (disintegrates). While the world is contracting, beings for the most part are reborn in the Ābhassara Brahma-world.[7] There they dwell, mind-made, feeding on rapture, self-luminous, moving through the air, abiding in glory. And they continue thus for a long, long period of time.

40. "But sooner or later, bhikkhus, after the lapse of a long period, there comes a time when this world begins to expand once again. While the world is expanding, an empty palace of Brahmā appears. Then a certain being, due to the exhaustion of his life-span or the exhaustion of his merit, passes away from the Ābhassara plane and re-arises in the empty palace of Brahmā. There he dwells, mind made, feeding on rapture, self-luminous, moving through the air, abiding in glory. And he continues thus for a long, long period of time.

41. "Then, as a result of dwelling there all alone for so long a time, there arises in him dissatisfaction and agitation, (and he yearns): 'Oh, that other beings might come to this place!' Just at that moment, due to the exhaustion of their life-span or the exhaustion of their merit, certain other beings pass away from the Ābhassara plane and re-arise in the palace of Brahmā, in companionship with him. There they dwell, mind-made, feeding on rapture, self-luminous, moving through the air, abiding in glory. And they continue thus for a long, long period of time.

42. "Thereupon the being who re-arose there first thinks to himself: 'I am Brahmā, the Great Brahmā, the Vanquisher, the Unvanquished, the Universal Seer, the Wielder of Power, the Lord, the Maker and Creator, the Supreme Being, the Ordainer, the Almighty, the Father of all that are and are to be. And these beings have been created by me. What is the reason? Because first I made the wish: "Oh, that other beings might come to this place!" And after I made this resolution, now these beings have come.'

"And the beings who re-arose there after him also think: 'This must be Brahmā, the Great Brahmā, the Vanquisher, the Unvanquished, the Universal Seer, the Wielder of Power, the Lord, the Maker and Creator, the Supreme Being, the Ordainer, the Almighty, the Father of all that are and are to be. And we have been created by him. What is the reason? Because we see that he was here first, and we appeared here after him.'

43. "Herein, bhikkhus, the being who re-arose there first possesses longer life, greater beauty, and greater authority than the beings who re-arose there after him.

44. "Now, bhikkhus, this comes to pass, that a certain being, after passing away from that plane, takes rebirth in this world. Having come to this world, he goes forth from home to homelessness. When he has gone forth, by means of ardor, endeavor, application, diligence, and right reflection, he attains to such a degree of mental concentration that with his mind thus concentrated he recollects his immediately preceding life, but none previous to that. He speaks thus: 'We were created by him, by Brahmā, the Great Brahmā, the Vanquisher, the Unvanquished, the Universal Seer, the Wielder of Power, the Lord, the Maker and Creator, the Supreme Being, the Ordainer, the Almighty, the Father of all that are and are to be. He is permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change, and he will remain the same just like eternity itself. But we, who have been created by him and have come to this world, are impermanent, unstable, short-lived, doomed to perish.'

[Alexander]

Brahma is delusional. He thinks he is the supreme deity but he actually isn’t

However it is correct to say Vishnu and Shiva are God. They both contemplated the I looking at itself, and thus reached enlightenment

We can also say it’s correct to say Christ is God. Perfection + enlightenment = deification. So Christ is an avatar by adoption

Re: The Buddha

The Buddha did not achieve perfection. He was an elephant. So it’s more appropriate to refer to him as “Siddhartha.” He’s still the enlightened one / awakened one, but we don’t want to let him get too big for his britches ☝️

[Alexander]

So there are three Noble Pursuits. One is being, one is enlightenment, and one is Wisdom

[Tad]

Alexander,

That is an interesting opinion. I saw one video by Sadhguru where he said that  Buddha only discovered 1 path but Shiva discovered 102 paths or something like that. However, I did not hear anything about Shiva's the other 101 paths and what they entail. Why do you think Shiva and Christ were more advanced? I personally feel like Buddha was the greatest teacher since his teachings were so well calculated and carefully formulated.

[Alexander]

Alexander,

That is an interesting opinion. I saw one video by Sadhguru where he said that  Buddha only discovered 1 path but Shiva discovered 102 paths or something like that. However, I did not hear anything about Shiva's the other 101 paths and what they entail. Why do you think Shiva and Christ were more advanced? I personally feel like Buddha was the greatest teacher since his teachings were so well calculated and carefully formulated.

I was thinking about it more this morning. Here are my thoughts on it

1 The Buddha's teaching is complete in itself in regard to enlightenment. It's probably the best bet to achieve liberation as of now outside of Christian mysticism & the Maharshi's teaching. The only critiques I would make are (1) the fear of acquiring knowledge (which has accumulated in the tradition over the centuries) and (2) the falling away of the teaching of the jhanas (which Jeff has identified and corrected, even if no one appreciates him for doing so ). I also think the teaching of the Buddha's pre-existence must be incorrect, and (the post I made earlier) on the four yugas is probably the most accurate cosmological perspective

2 Re: the Noble Pursuits. So there are 3 paths in life

i The path of being (self-consciousness), easily understood as the animals game or the "ladder of animals." This life goal means to become self-conscious and get as close as one can to perfection. It's interesting, because I only discovered it due to the teachings of Gurdjieff. I kept studying the different traditions but I see now how it all fits together

As I mentioned in the previous email, it seems the higher the animal you evolve into (particularly swan or higher) results in a better temporal afterlife. However, once that afterlife completes you have to re-descend for another human incarnation. Thus, the quest for enlightenment is the only rational path to pursue. The ideal of life is to become a nonreturner or arahant. That way you do not have to return, you achieve immortality, and you are not forced to return back for the cycle of samsara

ii If enlightenment is difficult for humans it's almost impossible for a god to achieve. Their lives are too comfortable. This explains the uniqueness of Vishnu and Shiva.

-We should give Vishnu primacy and assume he was the first to achieve self-realization. At the same time we must acknowledge Shiva and Christ as complete expressions of Divinity as well

-It's difficult, but the avatars are all One. It makes sense if you keep pondering it

iii The final path is Wisdom. The Greek philosophers tended to focus on this. We can identify Socrates, Christ, and Mohammed as figures who all possessed the Form of wisdom in them. Wisdom gives one mastery over all and also grants immortality. Wisdom requires a long path of careful inquiry into all the domains of the human experience. It requires insight into finance, psychology, war, politics, and history. Wisdom requires one to perceive the many traps and snares (the "yin and yang" - the endless war between right and left, for instance) and come to the third principle (the "Tao") which is transcendental

Hope that helps

[Jhanananda]

Alexander,

That is an interesting opinion. I saw one video by Sadhguru where he said that  Buddha only discovered 1 path but Shiva discovered 102 paths or something like that. However, I did not hear anything about Shiva's the other 101 paths and what they entail. Why do you think Shiva and Christ were more advanced? I personally feel like Buddha was the greatest teacher since his teachings were so well calculated and carefully formulated.

Thanks, Tad, for posting the sutta quote, in the future when quoting from any source it helps us all if we provide those sources and/or a link. As for taking a specific sutta quote in mind we should keep in mind that all religious literature has their Apocrypha which is typically the product of a future self-serving and corrupt priesthood.

I agree with Alexander, the Pali Canon contains the most complete and precise description of the contemplative life I have found in my 50 year contemplative lifestyle and study.  So, any claim otherwise I take as the product of future corrupt priesthoods.

Regarding Shiva, clearly Shiva comes from deep pre-history that seems to predate the Arian invasion of India and belong most likely to the pe-arian Dravidian culture. However, the iconography of Shiva, which is typically expressed as a guy wearing animal skins, carrying a pot in one hand and a pitch fork in the other suggests a hunter-gatherer lifestyle.  And, most significantly is a remarkable similitude to the Gilgamesh character in the Epic of Gilgamesh, which suggests to me that they have common origins, which date back about 8,000 years.

Please note I moved this topic to Fruitful Hinduism, because it really is not a Buddhist concept but clearly more related to concepts around Hinduism.

[KriyaYogi]

What I was told by Baglamukhi Kali, the MahaVidhya Kali I work with, is that she is an extraterrestrial from a Type III Kardashev civilization in a nearby Galaxy.  I suppose different deities or even different Kali's may be different since Hinduism lists ten Divine Mothers in the traditional Dus MahaVidhya literature.

   "Type III:A civilization in possession of energy at the scale of its own galaxy, with energy consumption at ≈4×1044 erg/sec. Lemarchand defined civilizations of this type as having access to power comparable to the luminosity of the entire Milky Way galaxy, about 4×1044 erg/sec (4×1037 watts)."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale

-David

[Tad]

Jhanananda,

This is Bodhi translation, but I think other translations are more or less the same message. The full sutta can be found at https://suttacentral.net/dn1/en/bodhi?reference=none&highlight=false

For this discussion I was interested in looking at Maha Brahma from the perspective of Buddhist texts. But of course since it is a Hindu concept, it might help to bring it to Hinduism. It is possible that monks after Buddha's death formulated the suttas in a way as to favor and propagate Buddhism. But I think there is a pretty good message overall. I think Buddha was dissapointed how the framework of the creator god led to all kinds of stupidity and lack or responsibility in personal practice at that time. We have plenty of bad examples in modern times too. For example, people believing that god created the world for his entertainment or that god makes people suffer so that they appreciate the afterlife. It seems to me that by sharing the story about Maha Brahma wanted to say that the universe is far more complicated than a personal god creating the world. I remember reading a sutta where Buddha himself recollected a past life where he was reborn as Maha Brahma.

In any case, since we moved to Hinduism, it would be interesting to learn about what powers Maha Brahma according to Hindu texts. We know he is not almighty but still the highest deity that exists as a being.

[Jhanananda]

Thanks, Tad, for your clarification. I too am interested in where this discussion goes.

[Alexander]

Thanks, Tad, for your clarification. I too am interested in where this discussion goes.

I think the Hindus have a few myths about him which give us hints to his nature.

1. There is one myth where the heavenly world exists but the physical world doesn't. So the devas go to Shiva and ask him to be the creator god. However, he delays because he knows if the physical world is created it will also create suffering and evil. So he procrastinates while seeking a solution to the problem of evil. This then leads Brahma, who is heedless/conceited, to create the physical world instead. It is a very beautiful world but it's also filled with sickness, old age, mutilation, and death. Due to this Shiva/Vishnu curse Brahma. This is usually explained as the reason why Brahma has no followers/temples in India compared to the other members of the trimurti.

2. There's another tale where Vishnu and Brahma are comparing powers, and Shiva appears as a pillar of endless light. Curious, the two go in different directions trying to find the source of the pillar. Vishnu goes south burrowing down, while Brahma goes north flying high. After traveling for eons they return and compare what they learned. Vishnu says he did not see the source of the pillar; but Brahma lies and says he did. After this Shiva appears and exposes Brahma for his duplicity. This is another tale where Brahma ends up cursed by the other member(s) of the trimurti.

If we interpret both- they seem to suggest the fallibility/arrogance of Brahma, compared to Vishnu and Shiva.

[Alexander]

1. There is one myth where the heavenly world exists but the physical world doesn't. So the devas go to Shiva and ask him to be the creator god. However, he delays because he knows if the physical world is created it will also create suffering and evil. So he procrastinates while seeking a solution to the problem of evil. This then leads Brahma, who is heedless/conceited, to create the physical world instead. It is a very beautiful world but it's also filled with sickness, old age, mutilation, and death. Due to this Shiva/Vishnu curse Brahma. This is usually explained as the reason why Brahma has no followers/temples in India compared to the other members of the trimurti.

It would also be... poetically appropriate... if the world was created as the result of someone's heedlessness/stupidity. It would certainly explain a lot of things...

Then the rest of us are trying for an eternity to clean up after someone else's mistake

[KriyaYogi]

From the information I have gotten from my Kali Ma I can say that it does not seem like she created this Universe but she moved to this sector of the Universe during the age of the Dinosaurs by our chronology and has the duty of acting as arbiter of disputes among races in this particular galactic supercluster.  I don't believe she was involved in the creation of this Universe specifically, but I do get the impression that she comes from outside of time and space using advanced technology to anchor her consciousness into this Universe to serve her duty. 

-David

[Jhanananda]

Thank you, Alexander, for your interesting contributions to this thread. Since I am a scientist then I see no compelling evidence for a creation.  I also see no compelling evidence for a big-bang either. What I see in the differing schools of Hinduism dissing Brahma is different religions attacking each other and disparaging a more ancient religion. More importantly none of these religions have it figured out without understanding the path to freedom is precisely described by the Noble Eightfold Path, which Buddhism has lost sight of thousands of years ago.

[Tad]

1. There is one myth where the heavenly world exists but the physical world doesn't. So the devas go to Shiva and ask him to be the creator god. However, he delays because he knows if the physical world is created it will also create suffering and evil. So he procrastinates while seeking a solution to the problem of evil. This then leads Brahma, who is heedless/conceited, to create the physical world instead. It is a very beautiful world but it's also filled with sickness, old age, mutilation, and death. Due to this Shiva/Vishnu curse Brahma. This is usually explained as the reason why Brahma has no followers/temples in India compared to the other members of the trimurti.

It would also be... poetically appropriate... if the world was created as the result of someone's heedlessness/stupidity. It would certainly explain a lot of things...

Then the rest of us are trying for an eternity to clean up after someone else's mistake

Alexander,

I think that since our minds contain ignorance and delusion, then it means we were part of the problem that led to conditioning of this world.