Table of attainment

[Alexander]

Hm the arahants appear to be ordered in terms of their relative contributions to the species

[Alexander]

I mentioned to Jeff I do believe Vishnu descended in antiquity... but it's so far back it's dating into the realm of mythology

Thus I think it's appropriate to include St. Denis (for whom we do have an historical record - even if it's imperfect), but not Vishnu's avatar

[Alexander]

Hm this is all far more interesting than I ever would have anticipated. It's fascinating to see how it all fits together

[Alexander]

I'm pondering the reference in the suttas to the Buddha's two early teachers who allegedly taught him to navigate the OOBE. So it appears the OOBE is an independently existing practice, and the ladder of ascent (four noble ones) is its own path. They don't necessarily overlap. It's complicated.

I assume the Buddha believed they were intertwined because that was his experience. However, it's clear the other spiritual masters achieved enlightenment without it.

I'm pondering now some of the figures of the OOBE movement, such as Robert Bruce and William Buhlman. So a lot of the saints and astral projectors of history indeed have heavenly afterlifes, but if they don't get on the ladder they eventually have to forget everything and be reborn.

St. Paul it seems the same. I don't think he achieved once-returning or nonreturning. Though his role in the development of Christianity remains essential.

[Alexander]

Von Hugel and Underhill are an interesting pair. It shows what humans can achieve if they are sincere.

[Alexander]

1 Underhill never awakened from the dogmatic slumber. This is what blocked her from enlightenment.
2 Gurdjieff never questioned his selfhood which blocked him from enlightenment.
3 Dante more or less knew everything. A complete vision of the world's spiritual reality. He was extremely close to enlightenment when he passed away.

[Jhanananda]

I'm pondering some of the saints of Christianity, for example Augustine and Thomas Aquinas, and trying to see if the Director wants me to place them on the table. It's remaining silent. I never read either in detail as it's clear they aren't mystics. It seems a harsh truth about the reality of our spiritual nature.

St Augustine's history is interesting, because he started out as a follower of Manachism, which makes him originally an Arian Christian.  He; however, renounced his association with Manachism and Arianism, or none of us would have ever heard of him. So, I have chosen not to spend much time studying him, because of his preponderance of rationalism and lack of mysticism.

[Jhanananda]

It also appears Socrates achieved immortality as a consequence of obtaining the Form of wisdom, but did not have spiritual attainment outside of this.

It appears Plato comprehended the underlying spiritual structure of the universe, but did not have spiritual attainment outside of this.

Since Socrates was only documented by Plato, then we cannot be sure if he was a fictional character cooked up by Plato; nonetheless, the Socrates clearly manifest many of the features and dialog of a genuine mystic.  The fact that he is described to have been going into trances, and went willingly to his death, suggest he was an arahant.  The real issue revealed in Plato's writing, and that of other Greek philosophers is they did not seem to have a grasp of a formal meditation practice, but their discussion of the virtues, which are identical to the "fruits of Spirit" and some of the "fruit of the mendicant life" (samanaphala) suggests there was at least shared concepts throughout Eurasia.

[Jhanananda]

Ok there are no streamwinners because streamwinners are knowledge collectors. Once it reaches critical mass, they induce the first descent into hell. If they navigate it they emerge as a once-returner.

Hm Alan Watts was brilliant. And knew a lot. But he never induced the spiritual crisis. He was killed by his unconsciousness.

Edit: He used alcohol to taper off the spiritual crisis until it killed him.

*Knowledge of the spiritual crisis, and its need for development, is essential.

I really don't understand the appeal of Alan Watts, because in his own admission he never practiced meditation and yet he is known most for his discourses on Buddhism, so he was only following a subset of the Noble Eightfold Path, meaning he was only for the naive, and not for those who meditate deeply.

[Jhanananda]

Hm Mohammed was ignorant of being so he didn’t know Christ’s nature. Ah but he is a prophet, he should know better. Shame on him.

We have to keep in mind that Mohammed wrote nothing, but the Koran is supposedly a collection of his speech during his trances.  When the koran was rolled out by Abu Bakker there was a lot of debate over the authenticity of the Koran, and why some other material wasn't included, which became the Hadith. Also, his inclusion of the 8 gates of Islam, which linguistically are associated with the term 'jhana' suggests to me that Mohammed might very well have been the real deal, but just like Jesus and Siddhartha Gautama, his and their message has been deeply corrupted by subsequent corrupt priesthoods.

[Jhanananda]

Hm the Buddha was ignorant of the Mysteries. Including the power of virginity.

I don't see this as true at all.  In fact the fruit of the mendicant life (samanaphala) are the earliest and most complete discussion of mysticism (aka Mysteries)

[Jhanananda]

I'm pretty sure I read most, if not all, of Underhill's books, and I came away from her writing with the opinion that she did not understand mysticism at all.  Her writing was more a comprehensive documentation of every Catholic saint with a reputation of mysticism. 

The argument that psychologists such as: Freud and William James, make is mysticism is the product of belief psychosis.  Later neurologists and neurosurgeons have argued that mysticism is the product of neurological damage, strokes and brain tumors. My take on the many so-called mystics that Underhill documented is 90% probably did suffer from profound: belief psychosis, neurological damage, strokes and/or brain tumors. However, 10% of those mystics clearly had genuine mystical attainment, such as: Teresa of Avial and John of the Cross.

[Jhanananda]

I'm pondering the reference in the suttas to the Buddha's two early teachers who allegedly taught him to navigate the OOBE. So it appears the OOBE is an independently existing practice, and the ladder of ascent (four noble ones) is its own path. They don't necessarily overlap. It's complicated.

I assume the Buddha believed they were intertwined because that was his experience. However, it's clear the other spiritual masters achieved enlightenment without it.

I'm pondering now some of the figures of the OOBE movement, such as Robert Bruce and William Buhlman. So a lot of the saints and astral projectors of history indeed have heavenly afterlifes, but if they don't get on the ladder they eventually have to forget everything and be reborn.

St. Paul it seems the same. I don't think he achieved once-returning or nonreturning. Though his role in the development of Christianity remains essential.

What I get out of my study of the suttas is one of many of Siddhartha's insights is the 4 material states of samadhi known in the suttas as jhana are to be understood as essential and foundational, which the OOBE movement has completely ignored in their rush to develop the OOBE.

[Alexander]

(...) So, I have chosen not to spend much time studying [Augustine], because of his preponderance of rationalism and lack of mysticism.

Agreed

Since Socrates was only documented by Plato, then we cannot be sure if he was a fictional character cooked up by Plato; nonetheless, the Socrates clearly manifest many of the features and dialog of a genuine mystic.  The fact that he is described to have been going into trances, and went willingly to his death, suggest he was an arahant.

It appears immortality is possible through three methods: (1) perfection (lionhood), (2) the Form of wisdom, and (3) attainment (nonreturning or arahantship).

This conclusion is a product of revelation, so ponder/grapple with it as you will. But, it makes the world much more complicated.

Based on the above, Socrates achieved immortality as a result of achieving the Form, but outside of this was neither a nonreturner nor an arahant.

The real issue revealed in Plato's writing, and that of other Greek philosophers is they did not seem to have a grasp of a formal meditation practice, but their discussion of the virtues, which are identical to the "fruits of Spirit" and some of the "fruit of the mendicant life" (samanaphala) suggests there was at least shared concepts throughout Eurasia.

Agree with all of this

Buddhism and the Greek philosophers are a kind of "yin and yang" of the sacred. The Buddhists focused on attainment, the Greeks on wisdom

I really don't understand the appeal of Alan Watts, because in his own admission he never practiced meditation and yet he is known most for his discourses on Buddhism, so he was only following a subset of the Noble Eightfold Path, meaning he was only for the naive, and not for those who meditate deeply.

I think it's a real tragedy what happened with him. He had enormous potential. He should be on the table as one of the once-returners. But he denied and fled his whole life from the spiritual crisis.

I would argue this is one of the weaknesses of Buddhism. It doesn't describe the descent into hell. Thus because he limited himself to only one tradition, he viewed the calling to descend as a pathology. He constantly ran away from it. So I think it's a tragic tale of lost potential.

I don't see this as true at all.  In fact the fruit of the mendicant life (samanaphala) are the earliest and most complete discussion of mysticism (aka Mysteries)

I'd identify the primary Mysteries as:

The first descent into hell (the "metanoia")
The second descent into hell (the "dark night of the soul")

There are indirect references to these in Buddhism, but they do not appear to be consciously articulated

We have to keep in mind that Mohammed wrote nothing, but the Koran is supposedly a collection of his speech during his trances.  When the koran was rolled out by Abu Bakker there was a lot of debate over the authenticity of the Koran, and why some other material wasn't included, which became the Hadith. Also, his inclusion of the 8 gates of Islam, which linguistically are associated with the term 'jhana' suggests to me that Mohammed might very well have been the real deal, but just like Jesus and Siddhartha Gautama, his and their message has been deeply corrupted by subsequent corrupt priesthoods.

You know he's the elephant in the room. We speak very little about Mohammed. I'm not disputing his attainment. But it is what it is.

I'm pretty sure I read most, if not all, of Underhill's books, and I came away from her writing with the opinion that she did not understand mysticism at all.  Her writing was more a comprehensive documentation of every Catholic saint with a reputation of mysticism.

I recommend perusing this one. It may alter your judgment of her attainment: https://www.ccel.org/ccel/underhill/mysticism.html

What I get out of my study of the suttas is one of many of Siddhartha's insights is the 4 material states of samadhi known in the suttas as jhana are to be understood as essential and foundational, which the OOBE movement has completely ignored in their rush to develop the OOBE.

Agreed wholly here

The OOB movement is missing the forest for the trees. The experience has a role, but should be integrated into a holistic spiritual philosophy

[Alexander]

Hm I would have assumed Ouspensky ended at once-returner but the Director’s not having me add him. I’ll keep contemplating it