Hearing sound in jhana

[Tad]

There are never ending discussions and heated arguments on a well known Buddhist forum whether sound can be heard while in jhana. One camp follows Ajahn Brahm's and his associates teachings that even in first jhana the mind is so concentrated on the meditation object that there is no awareness of external sounds. The other camp argues that awareness of external sounds or body sensations remains in lower jhanas. Both sides believe that the other side is misinterpreting the Pali Canon and Buddha's words 

[Jhanananda]

There are never ending discussions and heated arguments on a well known Buddhist forum whether sound can be heard while in jhana. One camp follows Ajahn Brahm's and his associates teachings that even in first jhana the mind is so concentrated on the meditation object that there is no awareness of external sounds. The other camp argues that awareness of external sounds or body sensations remains in lower jhanas. Both sides believe that the other side is misinterpreting the Pali Canon and Buddha's words 

The problem for Brahm is he confuses the luminous sphere as only the first jhana; whereas, the suttas define the 2nd jhana in terms of tranquility, which I take as the still mind. So, Brahm needs to learn to meditate daily and break the 20 minute barrier.  He might come to realize the luminous sphere occurs just before the 5th stage of samadhi, not the first. Also, there is nothing in the suttas describing a luminous sphere that arises during deep meditation.

[Tad]

Jhananda,

These are good points as always. We can only wander about their motivation in interpreting suttas in such an erroneous way.

[Jhanananda]

Jhananda,

These are good points as always. We can only wander about their motivation in interpreting suttas in such an erroneous way.

When we consider that most Buddhist priests will not discuss jhana, so when Brahm is one of very few Theravadan monks willing to even mention the term, then I appreciate that he is willing to discuss it; however, his definition for the 8 stages of samma-samadhi are so far off from the suttas, then anyone who meditates deeply is going to want to criticize his definition.

[Tad]

I found your article on GWV addressing this topic at http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/physicaljhana.htm. It was written in 2008. Looks like Theravada community has not made much progress in moving toward some sort or consensus since then.

[Jhanananda]

I found your article on GWV addressing this topic at http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/physicaljhana.htm. It was written in 2008. Looks like Theravada community has not made much progress in moving toward some sort or consensus since then.

Yes, I see no evidence that any of the three vehicles of Buddhism have made any progress at all in understanding the 8th fold of the Noble Eightfold Path. This situation is most likely due to people who join the priesthood generally work on pretending to be holy instead of investing the time and effort to meditate daily and deeply.

[bodhimind]

On the other hand, I find the 'astral traveling' or 'out of body experience' communities to seem to be closer. For example:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AstralProjection/comments/mmp8dr/working_on_a_new_ap_technique_related_to_the/

This contemplative probably found the auditory jhana-nimitta by accident. I don't quite agree with all the imagination and 'pushing', but it seems like it ended up in the manomayakaya.

[Jhanananda]

On the other hand, I find the 'astral traveling' or 'out of body experience' communities to seem to be closer. For example:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AstralProjection/comments/mmp8dr/working_on_a_new_ap_technique_related_to_the/

This contemplative probably found the auditory jhana-nimitta by accident. I don't quite agree with all the imagination and 'pushing', but it seems like it ended up in the manomayakaya.

It is interesting that the author of the linked essay mentioned Sumedo, a Theravadan monk, but no mention of all of the work on this forum regarding OOBEs and the various charismatic phenomena. I agree his discourse was far too cognitive, and completely misses the findings here of the necessity of maintaining a daily meditation practice that leads to depth in meditation and also the necessity to understand the significance of the 4 stages of jhana.

[Tad]

Hi Bodhimind,

I remember reading Sumedho's writing about the sound of silence.  I really respect Sumedho for the fact that he is not afraid to go against orthodox doctrine and focuses on real experience.

But regarding the never ending jhana wars, the camp of Ajahn Brahm believe that even in 1st jhana it is impossible for meditator to hear external sound such as thunder or someone talking loud, etc

[Jhanananda]

Hi Bodhimind,

I remember reading Sumedho's writing about the sound of silence.  I really respect Sumedho for the fact that he is not afraid to go against orthodox doctrine and focuses on real experience.

I agree

But regarding the never ending jhana wars, the camp of Ajahn Brahm believe that even in 1st jhana it is impossible for meditator to hear external sound such as thunder or someone talking loud, etc

The big problem that I have with Brahm's position on jhana is he has set the bar too high. The 8 stages of samma-samadhi should begin with the first recognizable phenomena and work toward the deepest levels. This is how I interpret the suttas.

[Tad]

Yes and as we know Ajahn Brahm's position can cause a lot of harm to misinformed meditators...

[Jhanananda]

Yes and as we know Ajahn Brahm's position can cause a lot of harm to misinformed meditators...

I agree, and to reinforce my premise here, we should not forget that the second jhana is defined by a still mind.  And, in my experience I find my mind still long before I experience the luminous sphere which is the precursor to an OOBE.