Author Topic: The Ending of Dukkha Depends on the Jhanas  (Read 3843 times)

Michael Hawkins

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The Ending of Dukkha Depends on the Jhanas
« on: March 01, 2024, 06:37:52 PM »
Hello friends,

As a lay practitioner trying to piece together a solid foundation in the Buddha-dhamma, I thought I'd share an epiphany that has arisen lately.

This morning I revisited the Jhana Sutta, Anguttara 9:36.  I couldn't find a translation from Jeffrey, so I printed out the versions from Thanissaro Bhikkhu (https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN9_36.html) and Bhikkhu Sujato (https://suttacentral.net/an9.36/en/sujato?lang=en&layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin).

In this teaching, the Buddha comes right out and says that the aim of the Four Noble Truths - to permanently end suffering caused by craving and clinging to the 5 Aggregates - DEPENDS on attaining and absorbing in all eight jhanas, both rupa and arupa.

Than Geoff's (Thanissaro Bhikkhu's) opening:

Quote
I tell you, the ending of the effluents depends on the first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness.  I tell you, the ending of the effluents depends on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.

For each of the jhana stages it's said:

Quote
He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, and emptiness, not-self.  He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of the deathless.  "This is peace, this is exquisite - the pacification of all fabrications, the relinquishing of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion, cessations; unbinding."

In my twice-daily meditation practice and during waking mindfulness, I've been watching and experiencing what Than Geoff calls "effluents," or what Sujato calls "defilements."  For me, this is the constant bubbling up of thoughts, feelings, sensations, emotions, stories, fantasies - the churning, chaotic mass of tantalizing diversion that jumps from one thing to another, always changing, always triggering trauma, patterned reactions and behaviors.  I would typically spend the first third to half of my sits attempting to really "be" with these things, to note them, categorize them, go deep with them, run them through the Three Marks, then formally let them go - before returning to the bliss, joy and ecstasy that patiently waited.  Instead of engaging Samma-Samadhi, I was engaging a mental obstacle course.

The Buddha, from my recent reading, prescribed jhana as the only skillful, essential, indispensable "replacement" for the aggregates of clinging, which are impermanent, not-self and pathways to suffering.  Until we have relinquished craving and clinging, he recommends repeatedly accessing self-arising bliss, joy and ecstasy.  Yes, jhana is impermanent and not-self - but it does not lead to suffering (except, perhaps, a tiny, subtle bit of stress due to clinging), and is in fact a requirement for total unbinding.  At the point when we've honestly achieved dispassion for ALL craving and clinging... it's time to abandon the path itself.

From this, I returned to Jeffrey's recent suggestion that we remember a recent successful sit at the moment we sit on the cushion.  My sense - and I'm sure Jeffrey will tell me if I'm wrong - is that the craving and clinging are not eliminated by virtue of becoming absorbed in jhana... but our experience of letting go becomes much more skillful and effective as absorption deepens.  There's no need to fight it out with phenomena; we're much better off immediately replacing mundane phenomena with jhana, from the perspective of which our mind-resources are freed up to access the clarity and skill required for true relinquishment.

None of this is new (you may be getting weary of me posting about the Aggregates and how to work with them), but this teaching answers the question I've been carrying around lately:  How much work must I do to let go of my craving and clinging for the elements of the 5 Aggregates?  The Buddha is clearly answering that we can simply recognize how all phenomena are detrimental and toxic, then just head into deeper and deeper jhana states - and from there, really let go of arising phenomena.

My resolve just intensified and solidified.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2024, 01:57:13 AM by Michael Hawkins »

Jhanananda

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Re: The Ending of Dukkha Depends on the Jhanas
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2024, 10:45:19 AM »
Hello friends,

As a lay practitioner trying to piece together a solid foundation in the Buddha-dhamma, I thought I'd share an epiphany that has arisen lately.

This morning I revisited the Jhana Sutta, Anguttara 9:36.  I couldn't find a translation from Jeffrey, so I printed out the versions from Thanissaro Bhikkhu (https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN9_36.html) and Bhikkhu Sujato (https://suttacentral.net/an9.36/en/sujato?lang=en&layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin).

In this teaching, the Buddha comes right out and says that the aim of the Four Noble Truths - to permanently end suffering caused by craving and clinging to the 5 Aggregates - DEPENDS on attaining and absorbing in all eight jhanas, both rupa and arupa.

Than Geoff's (Thanissaro Bhikkhu's) opening:

Quote
I tell you, the ending of the effluents depends on the first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness.  I tell you, the ending of the effluents depends on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.

For each of the jhana stages it's said:

Quote
He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, and emptiness, not-self.  He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of the deathless.  "This is peace, this is exquisite - the pacification of all fabrications, the relinquishing of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion, cessations; unbinding."

Michael, you found gold here. Thank you for sharing.

In my twice-daily meditation practice and during waking mindfulness, I've been watching and experiencing what Than Geoff calls "effluents," or what Sujato calls "defilements."  For me, this is the constant bubbling up of thoughts, feelings, sensations, emotions, stories, fantasies - the churning, chaotic mass of tantalizing diversion that jumps from one thing to another, always changing, always triggering trauma, patterned reactions and behaviors.  I would typically spend the first third to half of my sits attempting to really "be" with these things, to note them, categorize them, go deep with them, run them through the Three Marks, then formally let them go - before returning to the bliss, joy and ecstasy that patiently waited.  Instead of engaging Samma-Samadhi, I was engaging a mental obstacle course.

I agree, with all of the emphasis upon psychology and psychiatry in the last 120 + years we never saw evidence of enlightenment.

The Buddha, from my recent reading, prescribed jhana as the only skillful, essential, indispensable "replacement" for the aggregates of clinging, which are impermanent, not-self and pathways to suffering.  Until we have relinquished craving and clinging, he recommends repeatedly accessing self-arising bliss, joy and ecstasy.  Yes, jhana is impermanent and not-self - but it does not lead to suffering (except, perhaps, a tiny, subtle bit of stress due to clinging), and is in fact a requirement for total unbinding.  At the point when we've honestly achieved dispassion for ALL craving and clinging... it's time to abandon the path itself.

From this, I returned to Jeffrey's recent suggestion that we remember a recent successful sit at the moment we sit on the cushion.  My sense - and I'm sure Jeffrey will tell me if I'm wrong - is that the craving and clinging are not eliminated by virtue of becoming absorbed in jhana... but our experience of letting go becomes much more skillful and effective as absorption deepens.  There's no need to fight it out with phenomena; we're much better off immediately replacing mundane phenomena with jhana, from the perspective of which our mind-resources are freed up to access the clarity and skill required for true relinquishment.

None of this is new (you may be getting weary of me posting about the Aggregates and how to work with them), but this teaching answers the question I've been carrying around lately:  How much work must I do to let go of my craving and clinging for the elements of the 5 Aggregates?  The Buddha is clearly answering that we can simply recognize how all phenomena are detrimental and toxic, then just head into deeper and deeper jhana states - and from there, really let go of arising phenomena.

My resolve just intensified and solidified.

I completely agree this is what I found. I don't have to obsess over my psychoses. All I need to be free of suffering is saturate myself in the 8 stages of samadhi. Thank you for reporting your excellent work.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2024, 10:47:43 AM by Jhanananda »
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Michael Hawkins

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Re: The Ending of Dukkha Depends on the Jhanas
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2024, 02:20:29 PM »
Quote
I agree, with all of the emphasis upon psychology and psychiatry in the last 120 + years we never saw evidence of enlightenment.

Having been trained as a Jungian Archetypal Psychotherapist, I've appreciated having ways to get in touch with my trauma, core wounds, coping mechanisms, attachment style and all the rest of it.  It's a stage along the way to self-awareness, available to thoroughly brainwashed and repressed Westerners like myself.

But as the years roll by, as the hours on the cushion pile up, and as I finally begin to make sense of what the Buddha actually taught 2,500 years ago... I'm realizing the genius of replacing the churning mental quagmire with self-arising bliss, joy and ecstasy, which then lays out an infinitely superior pathway for dissolving the trash heap that is our accumulated trauma and mental impairment.  It's not about getting rid of trauma or psychosis, it's about seeing and experiencing them in a totally objective way, so that our mindless attachment to them ultimately ceases.  We still operate within the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eight as the supporting framework, but Samma-Samadhi is meant to be engaged fully, rather than turning it into a mental wrestling match.

I've needed to arrive at this particular insight on my own terms, even though Jeffrey has been shouting it from the rooftops for 50+ years.

In the heaven realms, I bet they teach this stuff to kindergarten students.

Alexander

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Re: The Ending of Dukkha Depends on the Jhanas
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2024, 11:47:22 AM »
with self-arising bliss, joy and ecstasy,

Given I just suffered a severe mental breakdown, and am now in the clutches of institutional psychiatry, it would be grand if I could finally learn to access these states via meditation…

I’ve been devoted to Jeffrey as my teacher since I discovered him on YouTube at 18 (I’m 32 now), and it’s certainly not caused by a lack of trying. I had to re-convince myself that it’s not idleness yesterday (https://thetravelogue3.blogspot.com/2019/07/monthly-logs.html).

It could be my adult sexual PTSD. It was both the engine to this breakdown occurring, and perhaps is what impedes self-satisfaction when meditating. It could be a lack of long sits; though I’ve done them at length in previous periods to no result. Or it could be I don’t experience “kundalini” type energy when I sit which others do.

I don’t see how my complex PTSD could be the impediment, when the whole purpose of meditation should be as a vehicle to escape it.

I’m on dopamine-blockers now, which hopefully wouldn’t be a new impediment to bliss and joy when meditating.

Jungian Archetypal Psychotherapist

This was my background as well, Jungian psychology, then this nightmare happened 🙁.

Perhaps you and Jeffrey could give me a daily practice regimen, given I am here in the hospital for the next 50 days as a prisoner regardless.
https://alexanderlorincz.com/

"I saw all things gathered in one volume by love - what, in the universe, seemed separate, scattered." (Canto 33)

Jhanananda

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Re: The Ending of Dukkha Depends on the Jhanas
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2024, 11:52:28 AM »
Thanks, Michael. Perhaps the reason why I found bliss, joy and ecstasy so early on is because I was too poor to pay for counseling, so I had no other option.  However, I was in weekly therapy for 9 years after I was established in the ecstasies for about 20 years. It wasn't until I had looked everywhere else before I reluctantly realized that I had figured it out, that religion and academia were totally corrupt, and left civilization. It is good to have some company in the wilderness. Thanks.

For Alexander to investigate how is it that the three of us, you Michael and I, have a history of severe PTSD, and while Michael and I have found refuge in the Nobel Eightfold Path, which has led to bliss, joy and ecstasy; whereas it led you to the psych ward? How does that happen?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2024, 12:16:30 PM by Jhanananda »
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Michael Hawkins

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Re: The Ending of Dukkha Depends on the Jhanas
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2024, 03:44:56 PM »
with self-arising bliss, joy and ecstasy,

Given I just suffered a severe mental breakdown, and am now in the clutches of institutional psychiatry, it would be grand if I could finally learn to access these states via meditation…

I’ve been devoted to Jeffrey as my teacher since I discovered him on YouTube at 18 (I’m 32 now), and it’s certainly not caused by a lack of trying. I had to re-convince myself that it’s not idleness yesterday (https://thetravelogue3.blogspot.com/2019/07/monthly-logs.html).

It could be my adult sexual PTSD. It was both the engine to this breakdown occurring, and perhaps is what impedes self-satisfaction when meditating. It could be a lack of long sits; though I’ve done them at length in previous periods to no result. Or it could be I don’t experience “kundalini” type energy when I sit which others do.

I don’t see how my complex PTSD could be the impediment, when the whole purpose of meditation should be as a vehicle to escape it.

I’m on dopamine-blockers now, which hopefully wouldn’t be a new impediment to bliss and joy when meditating.

Jungian Archetypal Psychotherapist

This was my background as well, Jungian psychology, then this nightmare happened 🙁.

Perhaps you and Jeffrey could give me a daily practice regimen, given I am here in the hospital for the next 50 days as a prisoner regardless.

Alexander - I think that using your time in the psych ward as a sort of meditation retreat is a great idea.  I don't know how the dopamine blockers will effect your access to jhana, but I can see where being "incarcerated" for 50 days presents an opportunity to deepen your practice.

When I was a young boy, perhaps four or five years old, I would sit cross-legged on my bed and go into all eight of the jhana states - four in the material realm, four in the non-material realms.  A holy man - I thought it was Jesus, but who knows - came to me during that period of time and took me on a tour of the arupa jhanas, where I learned of past lives and ever more refined states of being.  When that period of time closed, he told me that he would be leaving me for exactly 30 years.  When I was 33 (my 34th year), I was in the corpse pose trying to get out of my body, practicing astral projection.  I spent up to ten hours a day in these efforts.  As a result, jhana nimittas began to arise, starting with a tingling in my forehead, which progressed to a "halo" that then cascaded down my body so that I was in an energetic eggshell.  It took eight more years of frantic searching for guidance before I found Jeffrey - around the year 2000.

What I'm saying is, I was blessed to have had those early-life experiences, because then, at 33 when the nimittas started up again, I had something to compare them with.  My being was already acclimated, albeit in a dormant form.  That said... for me, attempts to astral project seem to have provided the necessary stimulus for self-arising bliss, joy and ecstasy to re-emerge.  The ecstasies have been present ever since.  When I maintain a serious daily meditation practice, I am saturated in first jhana all day long, and will go into second or third jhana just sitting in my car waiting for Instacart orders.

I hope this doesn't come off as bragging or patting my own back.  Truth is, the last 15 years (until about 2.5 years ago) were sheer Hell, because I was in a situation where I didn't feel capable of (or free to engage) a truly contemplative daily life.  Being saturated in jhana under those circumstances was actually a form of intense suffering that I would not wish on anyone.  Now that I'm free to have a full practice, I'm able to recognize my clinging to the aggregates, and I'm able to find the inner fulfillment that seems to immediately go bye-bye in relationship.

I terms of you finding jhana, it's tricky.  Sometimes the desperate desire to make it happen can actually prevent it, since there is an expectation that is met with repeated disappointment, leading to discouragement and other negative mind-states.  But if you don't have that desire, what's the point of having a contemplative life?  There is a middle way in there somewhere.  My sense is that complete self-honesty combined with a willingness to truly surrender, over and over and over again, is what eventually does the trick.  Once there is a pleasant arising (like I said, for me it started in the forehead, but it can be anywhere), that becomes the object of meditation.  It moves around, typically, changes form, sometimes expands, changes temperature, whatever.  Stay with it and let it play itself out, in whatever way that happens to be.  It is forging new territory for the next session, or the one after that.  Let these nimittas guide you, and be patient with them.

My daily life is pretty much a retreat these days.  The only difference is, I have to spend five hours in the afternoon taking Instacart orders so I can keep the lights on.  That said, if I had complete freedom every day, my routine would look something like this:

Early morning (4:30-5:30) - wake up, hopefully capture whatever dream I'm dreaming; waddle down the hall to open Obsidian on computer, write the dream down. Drink morning dose of hydrogen peroxide.

First meditation - Depending on how active my mind and emotions are, I try (per a recent Jeffrey suggestion) to access recent successful meditation experiences so that I can drop right back into them.  I sit for at least an hour, often longer, until things feel truly "done" for that session.

I would try to sit for a total of at least six hours per if I was on retreat in a psych ward, maybe more.  I would do standing and/or walking meditation when corpse or sitting hits a wall.  At a retreat with Jeffrey years ago, we stood on a ridge looking into an Aspen grove, and used the shimmering Aspen leaves as the object - truly amazing, that experience.  Basically, I would get into a rhythm of moving in and out of meditation, dipping in, withdrawing, then dipping back in, over and over again.

In-between sessions I would read the Suttas and perhaps listen to dhamma talks from my favorite teachers.  I would fit a midday meal in with perhaps a snack in the late afternoon - but that's me, according to my current dietary practice, everyone is different.  Your practice of keeping a log can be useful, just to keep things organized and leave a trail.  I've been journaling all my life and I never go back to read any of it, but just the act of writing things down seems to keep the cycles of life in motion.

One more thought - if you wake up in the wee hours, between 1 and 4 for in the morning, consider using that time for a meditation session.  That time-frame seems to be a "magical witching hour" wherein absorption states are more accessible.  Jeffrey can confirm this, because he's been doing it for 50 years.

I hope there's something in all of this that meets you where you are.  I really respect the fact that you see an opportunity for retreat in your current situation - I think it can be a genuine turning point for you moving forward.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2024, 04:43:13 PM by Michael Hawkins »

Alexander

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Re: The Ending of Dukkha Depends on the Jhanas
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2024, 03:56:45 PM »
with self-arising bliss, joy and ecstasy,

Given I just suffered a severe mental breakdown, and am now in the clutches of institutional psychiatry, it would be grand if I could finally learn to access these states via meditation…

I’ve been devoted to Jeffrey as my teacher since I discovered him on YouTube at 18 (I’m 32 now), and it’s certainly not caused by a lack of trying. I had to re-convince myself that it’s not idleness yesterday (https://thetravelogue3.blogspot.com/2019/07/monthly-logs.html).

It could be my adult sexual PTSD. It was both the engine to this breakdown occurring, and perhaps is what impedes self-satisfaction when meditating. It could be a lack of long sits; though I’ve done them at length in previous periods to no result. Or it could be I don’t experience “kundalini” type energy when I sit which others do.

I don’t see how my complex PTSD could be the impediment, when the whole purpose of meditation should be as a vehicle to escape it.

I’m on dopamine-blockers now, which hopefully wouldn’t be a new impediment to bliss and joy when meditating.

Jungian Archetypal Psychotherapist

This was my background as well, Jungian psychology, then this nightmare happened 🙁.

Perhaps you and Jeffrey could give me a daily practice regimen, given I am here in the hospital for the next 50 days as a prisoner regardless.

Alexander - I will answer on your Contemplative Blogs post that mirrors this one.

👍

Apologies I just deleted and re-created that post. Don’t lose what you wrote!
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Michael Hawkins

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Re: The Ending of Dukkha Depends on the Jhanas
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2024, 04:32:09 PM »
Quote
Apologies I just deleted and re-created that post. Don’t lose what you wrote!

I ended up writing it on this thread, lol.  See two entries above....
« Last Edit: March 04, 2024, 02:17:54 AM by Michael Hawkins »

Michael Hawkins

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Re: The Ending of Dukkha Depends on the Jhanas
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2024, 04:38:13 PM »
Thanks, Michael. Perhaps the reason why I found bliss, joy and ecstasy so early on is because I was too poor to pay for counseling, so I had no other option.  However, I was in weekly therapy for 9 years after I was established in the ecstasies for about 20 years. It wasn't until I had looked everywhere else before I reluctantly realized that I had figured it out, that religion and academia were totally corrupt, and left civilization. It is good to have some company in the wilderness. Thanks.

Reflecting on what I just wrote to Alexander, about the early-life access to all the jhana states - I can see now where that was a set-up for many long years of disillusionment in this world.  I can also see how stubborn I've been, looking everywhere but right here (inside myself) for answers.  It's so nice to have survived and arrived at a time and place where deeper surrender and acceptance are finally happening.  And it's wonderful to have company in the wilderness, yes it is.  Thank you.

Michael Hawkins

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Re: The Ending of Dukkha Depends on the Jhanas
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2024, 07:13:01 PM »
I went ahead and converted the original post here into a blog entry at Samma-Samadhi.

https://rightabsorption.wordpress.com/2024/03/03/the-ending-of-dukkha-depends-on-the-jhanas/

Jhanananda

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Re: The Ending of Dukkha Depends on the Jhanas
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2024, 10:30:36 AM »
Reflecting on what I just wrote to Alexander, about the early-life access to all the jhana states - I can see now where that was a set-up for many long years of disillusionment in this world.  I can also see how stubborn I've been, looking everywhere but right here (inside myself) for answers.  It's so nice to have survived and arrived at a time and place where deeper surrender and acceptance are finally happening.  And it's wonderful to have company in the wilderness, yes it is.  Thank you.

The material world can be such an entangling morass of delusion that it is a wonder if anyone ever makes it through this disaster, this holocaust, this deluge. But, thankfully a few of us have made it through and found company with each other.

I went ahead and converted the original post here into a blog entry at Samma-Samadhi.

https://rightabsorption.wordpress.com/2024/03/03/the-ending-of-dukkha-depends-on-the-jhanas/

You covered everything so well in your earlier post on this thread that I have nothing to add, other than a thank you.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2024, 10:50:17 AM by Jhanananda »
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