Walking Meditation and the Role of Pain in deepening meditation practice

[nkrivosh]

Hi Jhanananda,
I thought I'd start a new topic since some other people might be interested in your answer to this question as well. The first 10 day retreat I ever did was difficult for me because I faced lots of physical pain, but with lots of effort and determination to observe it equanimously, towards the end of the retreat the pain was mostly all gone, and when I returned home I noticed that surprisingly there was no pain at all and I could sit and have great meditation without pain and was able to go much deeper than during the retreat. Correct me if I am wrong, but I am of the opinion that this was possible because I gained a certain momentum during the retreat which I was able to maintain and even grow afterward.

Now having said that: Aftersome time, I lost the momentum and seems to have regressed back to where I started. Since then again I experience pain after sitting for over an hour and a half.  My question is, what is the right attitude i should have with regards to pain. I understand that I need to be equanimous and observe objectively but I when meditating for a long time, such as all day, then there is usually pain somewhere on the body. I have tried various things such as alternating between walking meditation and sitting meditation.  What do you think about walking meditation?

I find that when there is pain, one beneficial thing comes from it. If there is drowsiness or disinterest, then pain  wakes me up and helps me to become engaged and alert again. During the last retreat, everyone in the retreat was an experienced meditator and sat without moving for every meditation session whether it was 1 hour long or 2 hours. So, I, feeling that if they can do it then so can I, also began sitting motionless even through the pain and noticed that after a few days my mindfulness and meditation had deepened considerably and pain was almost fully gone even in the longer sittings.

Now, outside of group retreat, such as solo retreat, when there are no other meditators to be encouraged by, when there is pain, after awhile maybe an hour or so, my tendency is to change posture or begin walking meditation. Thinking that torturing oneself with pain is not a necessary part of the path. But my experience says that it is quite important. What do you think? Having lost momentum, and experiencing pain, what should be my attitude? and what is a good balance to know when enough is enough and its ok to change posture or maybe do walking meditation instead? thanks   

[Jhanananda]

Hi Jhanananda,
I thought I'd start a new topic since some other people might be interested in your answer to this question as well. The first 10 day retreat I ever did was difficult for me because I faced lots of physical pain, but with lots of effort and determination to observe it equanimously, towards the end of the retreat the pain was mostly all gone, and when I returned home I noticed that surprisingly there was no pain at all and I could sit and have great meditation without pain and was able to go much deeper than during the retreat. Correct me if I am wrong, but I am of the opinion that this was possible because I gained a certain momentum during the retreat which I was able to maintain and even grow afterward.

Hello again, nkrivosh, I am not surprised that you experienced pain while attending a 10 day meditation retreat.  I too experienced pain while attending 10 day meditation retreats.  And, I found I could meditate beyond the pain, and I would develop a momentum in my meditation practice that I attempted to bring back home with me, and that momentum would remain with me for a few weeks, but life would happen and decay would set into my meditation experiences, but I would keep to a minimum schedule of 2 sits a day.

I attended about 1 10-day meditation retreat a year from 1975 to about 2000.  After 2000 I just decided to make the rest of my life one long meditation retreat.  And, I found that at many meditation retreats the teacher believes that one must meditate beyond the pain.

During the first 2 years of my life-long meditation retreat I camped in the Inyo Naitonal Forest, and I decided to find out just how much meditation I could do, and what it would produce.  I found that to sustain an intense meditation practice I could not exceed 6 hours of sitting practice without producing sciatica.  So, I kept my daily sitting schedule at 6 hours, then I added in walking meditation, as you suggested.  I found walking meditation certainly relieved the pressure on the joints, but I could not extend my sitting practice further.  So, then I added in standing meditation, since the suttas state that standing meditation was a practice Siddhartha Gautama recommended.  I found combining it with walking meditation worked quite well.  Then I tried lying down meditation, as I noticed that was recommended in the suttas as well.  I found by combining meditation in the 4 postures of sitting, standing, walking and lying down I could meditate all day long every day without producing a medical problem for this body. However, I did not develop any magical powers such as parting the seas, walking on water, or levitating.

Now having said that: Aftersome time, I lost the momentum and seems to have regressed back to where I started. Since then again I experience pain after sitting for over an hour and a half.  My question is, what is the right attitude i should have with regards to pain. I understand that I need to be equanimous and observe objectively but I when meditating for a long time, such as all day, then there is usually pain somewhere on the body. I have tried various things such as alternating between walking meditation and sitting meditation.  What do you think about walking meditation?

I believe that we should regard pain as a message from the body telling us that we are doing something unhealthy for it, so we should listen to that message or the body will get sick.  On the other hand there is a propensity to pamper the body, which is not what I am proposing.  I suggest a middle path of disciplining the body and mind to sit for longer sits, but not to be too harsh upon the body and mind.

I find that when there is pain, one beneficial thing comes from it. If there is drowsiness or disinterest, then pain  wakes me up and helps me to become engaged and alert again. During the last retreat, everyone in the retreat was an experienced meditator and sat without moving for every meditation session whether it was 1 hour long or 2 hours. So, I, feeling that if they can do it then so can I, also began sitting motionless even through the pain and noticed that after a few days my mindfulness and meditation had deepened considerably and pain was almost fully gone even in the longer sittings.

Now, outside of group retreat, such as solo retreat, when there are no other meditators to be encouraged by, when there is pain, after awhile maybe an hour or so, my tendency is to change posture or begin walking meditation. Thinking that torturing oneself with pain is not a necessary part of the path. But my experience says that it is quite important. What do you think? Having lost momentum, and experiencing pain, what should be my attitude? and what is a good balance to know when enough is enough and its ok to change posture or maybe do walking meditation instead? thanks   

Well, as stated above, using all 4 mediation postures is wise, and knowing the line between self-abuse and discipline is important.  Only you can tell that point.

[nkrivosh]

thanks again for your reply it is very helpful and reaffirms some of my beliefs.

[Luke Avedon]

I believe that we should regard pain as a message from the body telling us that we are doing something unhealthy for it, so we should listen to that message or the body will get sick.  On the other hand there is a propensity to pamper the body, which is not what I am proposing.  I suggest a middle path of disciplining the body and mind to sit for longer sits, but not to be too harsh upon the body and mind.

These are very interesting comments.  I have a theory that the reason a lot of people don't make much progress is their meditation becomes about self abuse.  The genius of the system described in the Sutta's is you are replacing sensual pleasure with mind pleasures which pull the mind deeper and deeper.  When there is aversion, say in a boot camp style zen retreat, can you really get into Jhana? I doubt it.  I think a lot of the spectacular effects are due to the sensory deprivation of being in a retreat setting.  Isn't macho self-abuse meditation really what the Buddha describes as wrong concentration? More so even then what most people claim is wrong concentration such as....engaging in Jhana experiences excessively with the wrong aim (don't the experiences help produce the correct aim?). 

The most progress I've made is at home or at a meditation center which has mostly unsupervised meditations.  Since I have weak willpower I don't allow aversion to build up and it seems to work better.  I have found that sometimes momentum carries over from pushing myself in a group setting, but sometimes aversion builds up instead and it can retard my home sits.

Lot's of people say a Goenka retreat was the most amazing experience of their life but they never ever sit again!

[Luke Avedon]

P.S.

When I switched from doing one or two 90 minute Yoga classes a day to only doing two deadlifts at the gym from once a week to 4x a week (which takes hardly any time at all) my body, and especially my back, was far more comfortable at sitting meditation than when I was doing all that yoga