Author Topic: Exposing Sadguru Jaggi Vasudev of the Isha Yoga Center  (Read 107366 times)

bodhimind

  • vetted member
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 356
Talk on intellect vs the divine
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2015, 01:11:21 PM »
I loved this talk by Sadhguru, an enlightened yogi. He talked about how intellect only dissects, rather than explains. And it is for this very reason why science will never be able to explain the religious experience. He describes his futile talk with a Nobel Laureate physicist who asked him for the mathematical basis for what he talks about.

I now see the reason why enlightened beings do not bother trying to awaken people through science. There is no reason to and logic can serve "technologies", as he calls it, but cannot explain the fundamental nature of everything.

Here is the talk if you want to hear what he says about it.


I also like the yogic terms he uses to explain. He resonates a lot with what I have been feeling for the past few years.

jay.validus

  • Guest
Re: Talk on intellect vs the divine
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2015, 05:13:08 PM »
I watched a few of his videos.  He is a great speaker and does his job very well. Thank you for sharing.

Overall, I do not like reading or watching too many other people's explanations of the phenomenon of consciousness, what that bridge is between the physical and non-physical, and beyond the mental and physical capacities.  This is what creative expression is for.

I am in the process of reading some of the Sutta Pitaka, Yoga Sutta of Patanjali, and some other readings Jeffery has shared, like Interior Castle.   I will always do me first and will eventually let go of much of this research.  Why?  It is too grounding, it gets in the way of allowing the process to unfold within myself.

Then why do I do all this reading presently?  A few reasons: first, I grew up with a now defunct stuttering problem.  My research has allowed me to put words to my intuitive understandings, insights, and experiences;  second, spending time at a Goenka centre in Ontario, which has been a beautiful and great decision for which I am forever grateful, I had many strong intellectual doubts over some of the ideology presented.  I find I have my own principles and convictions already within me, and I do not need to study them... they arise naturally when it is proper.  With actually reading the Sutta Pitaka, I can see a clear view of not only what Goenka teaches, but a clear separation of what naturally arises within me.  I can see what being taught at that particular meditation centre does have holes -- it does not follow much of the Buddhist Suttas on mindfulness.  Further, following another's idea on consciousness becomes a hindrance to my own joy.  They ignore much of the dream and mystical aspect of life, with the idea it gets in the way of the earth-based work of life.  I disagree, it can become part of one's life.

I prefer to put my attention on the cross-section between the waking and dreaming states of mind.  I prefer to allow the emptiness to fill me.  There is such bliss when you allow yourself to centre on the imaginative, on the possibility, on the abstract.  I have made time my whole life to sit, walk, and express with this bliss.  Art and music are natural ways to allow the creative expression, both alone and in a group. 

All my life this above bliss has been my guide, first and foremost.  I find my daily meditation practice very relaxing and peaceful.  It has brought much to the surface for me to become a better person.  However, I trust this unexplainable dream, mystical, blissful, creative aspect of our human nature first.  Gurus be helpful, but my first guru is already right here inside me.   

bodhimind

  • vetted member
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 356
Re: Exposing Sadguru Jaggi Vasudev of the Isha Yoga Center
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2015, 12:12:45 PM »
I just wanted to add in a few words about Jaggi here, as I did a search and found that there was a starting bias from the OP. So I did my own research.

I stumbled across his videos and started watching them, checking to see if he demonstrated the fruits in any way. I cannot say since I have never met the person himself, but here is my analysis.

I will use the following list:

Quote
critical thinking; following ethics, leading a rigorous, self-aware, contemplative life; teaching an ethical, rigorous, self-aware, contemplative life, manifesting the fruit there of; and the rigorous followers of that person must also be manifesting these fruit.  I did not see any of that, but I did see magic tricks, devotion, and religious practices without manifesting the above fruit.

(1) Critical thinking. He always seems to want to explain things by how people experience their current reality. He says that anything outside of one's experience is mere fantasy. He also seems to speak in quite a rational manner. I am quite amazed at how eloquent he is in thinking of suitable metaphors to explain things, however, that is a side-note, as eloquence is a skill and not a fruit of enlightenment.

(2) Leading a rigorous, self-aware and contemplative life. I am unable to verify this. However, upon reading his history, he seemed to be an extremely self-aware child who was very intense in investigation. Eventually, yoga happened when he was sitting intensely on a mountain in India. He repeatedly insists that people connect with nature, retreat to nature and seek spirituality intensely. He says that one must be intense in practice, which is quite consistent with what i have learnt here. He might be using yoga terminology a lot, but I feel that he is being genuine.

(3) Manifesting the fruits of a contemplative life. He definitely has bliss, for he is always smiling and in equanimity no matter how aggressive the questioner is. I found that quite intriguing, as he always seeks ways of answering with a peaceful tone, to the motivation of the individual asking, instead of the actual content. He describes himself in a state that is reminiscent of an equanimous jhana state throughout his day.

He seems to have the following fruits: Upekkha, Adukkha, paticca samuppada (past-life recalls, he talks about his past 3 lives in huge detail, including his previous teacher.).

However, I cannot verify if he has the following fruits: Manomaya, Dibba-sota, Dibba-cakkhu, Nanadassana.

From researching around, I found a source that says that all of the profits that is earned by the website has only been set up by a volunteer group known as "Isha foundation". The money is apparently, largely used to support a contemplative lifestyle for the volunteers (who stay over), for greening/environmental projects and many other projects such as the Dhyanalinga, which is supposedly a consecrated space for meditation. He does not seem to indulge in wealth and is uninterested in it, other than its use in making changes.

(4) Dialog to still the mind. Here, I quote a few abstracts of his words:

Quote from: Jaggi
The moment you pump some energy into an inert mind, it becomes active, but it could be scattered. If you energize the mind further, the mind comes to a place where the mind is not so scattered, but it is oscillating – one day it is this way, another day that way. This is a huge improvement over being scattered moment to moment. If you energize it further, it slowly becomes one-pointed – that is far better. But the most important thing is the mind should become a conscious process.

Quote from: Jaggi
If you transcend the intellect you become equanimous. This does not mean you lose the ability to discriminate. If you lose the discriminatory intellect, you will become insane.

Quote
When you are living in the body there are eight samadhis available to a human being. Of these eight, they have been broadly categorized as savikalpa: samadhis with attributes or qualities – samadhis that are very pleasant, blissful, and ecstatic – and nirvikalpa: samadhis that are beyond pleasant and unpleasant, they are without attributes or qualities.

It seems that he is talking about the 4 jhanas and 4 formless samadhis here.

Quote from: Jaggi
As long as you are in the body, whatever liberation you attain, the body is a limitation. It is not complete liberation. When someone leaves their body in full awareness, then we call this Mahasamadhi because he or she has shed the body.

Right now, there is you and the other; it is a certain level of reality. In a samadhi state, you go beyond that discrimination and in your experience you are able to see the oneness of the existence.

Mahasamadhi means you not only see it that way, you have become that way totally – discrimination is finished. That means individual existence is finished. Who you are does not exist anymore. The life that is functioning as an individual life right now becomes absolutely universal or cosmic or boundless. To put it in traditional terms, you become one with God or one with everything.

He seems to be talking about shedding the body here. He also talks about "yoga".

(5) Religious Practices and Devotion.

He says all religion is seeking the same thing and often quotes Christianity as well as Gautama Siddharta. In that aspect, I would think that he believes that religious practices are obsolete. One issue I have with him though, is that sometimes he tells a story about Gautama, but the story is a little different. But he does get the gist of the story across.

He explained what he calls the guru is the divine, hence devotion means surrendering to it.

He also talked about the Guru-Student transmission in India. He says that it was developed by the various yogis for direct transmission of knowledge, rather than writing down in words, which cause distortions due to cultural changes and unenlightened beings who distort the original meanings, particularly non-cultivating scholars. For example, the pronunciation of mantras as such "aum" as well as other forms of knowledge.

He also says that he has never read any religious scripture prior to experiencing enlightenment. Since he says that he was enlightened in a previous lifetime and that he was here just to complete the Dhyanalinga, if this was put in a Buddhist context, we could possibly call that a Once-returner?

The way he describes it though, is that he mastered his chakras and consciously chose his birth 80 years after his previous life with a different personality, so that he could fulfil his teacher's wish.

Lastly, he likes to express himself in poetry, because he believes it as the best way to express his experiences. I find this so strange, since I know Jhanananda himself is a poet and so were some of the other enlightened masters in literature, etc. The Bible itself were stories and parables, the Bhagavad Gita was a song, etc.

--

(6) Other observations.

There are pictures of him on a motorbike. However, I do not think that classifies him as inauthentic, as he is still human and requires a mode of transport.

He often uses stories of Gautama Siddharta, the Bible and Patanjali as anecdotes to bring out points.

If I were to compare him to a real fraud, such as Swami Nithyananda, who uses money from donations to make a "golden seat" for himself, and has been repeatedly exposed with sexual fraud, then I can say, from observation, that Jaggi seems to be a person that is uninterested in public opinion, luxury and narcissism.

He advocates a type of basic meditation to get beginners started, known as kriya yoga - Where one disidentifies with the body and mind (the principle of anatman in Buddhism). Then, one does the "seed sound AUM", as described in the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali.

In his videos, I see that he often asks people to be aware of 4 things that are not the self: Body, emotions, thoughts and life energy. In my opinion, this seems similar to the four frames of reference.

---

This is my analysis, which is limited. I hope more experienced people can evaluate his material. I do not know about the OP's actual experience, but from seeing the material, to me at least, he feels quite genuine, although I do prefer listening from a Buddhist context, rather than a yogic context, as terms like Shiva, etc do not mean things for me.

One thing that I find is that he tends to try to use very simple language to explain things, so sometimes the concepts feel "dumbed down" for understanding.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2015, 04:16:36 PM by bodhimind »

Sam Lim

  • vetted member
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 422
Re: Exposing Sadguru Jaggi Vasudev of the Isha Yoga Center
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2015, 03:27:54 PM »
I used to watch his videos. He also doesn't believe in a creator god or I should say he did not find any evidence of one. Don't know much about his attainments though but he seems to know the vedas very well and always quote from them.



Jhanananda

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4629
    • Great Wesern Vehicle
Re: Exposing Sadguru Jaggi Vasudev of the Isha Yoga Center
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2015, 02:06:03 PM »
Thank-you, bodhimind, for a very well executed critical analysis of the so-called "Sadguru" Jaggi Vasudev of the Isha Yoga Center."  From your excellent analysis it does indeed sound like he may be genuinely enlightened. 

I do wish to point out that the term 'Sadguru' is an honorific, which means 'true guru.'  It sounds like his name is 'Jaggi Vasudev,' so, unless we are going to be his devotee, we should most probably call him by his personal name, and avoid the honorific.

A note on the OP (Original Poster): 
I got to know the OP quite well when he lived with me for a few months, and attended a summer GWV wilderness retreat.  At that time I found him to be a true-believer, who was devoted to SN Goenka, so it would appear that no one would ever be acceptable to him.  In fact, I believe his whole reason for coming to live with me, and attend the summer GWV wilderness retreat, was purely to acquire material to put us at a disadvantage over his "Goenkaji."  Thus, his experience of Jaggi Vasudev was surely deeply colored by his devotion to his own guruji, and therefore not critical at all.  In fact during the entire time he lived and retreated with me I never found him capable of exercising critical thinking.  All he ever did was keep asking the same questions over and over again, until they quite drove me mad.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 02:41:44 AM by Jhanananda »
There is no progress without discipline.

If you want to post to this forum, then send me a PM.

Sam Lim

  • vetted member
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 422
Re: Exposing Sadguru Jaggi Vasudev of the Isha Yoga Center
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2015, 03:41:15 PM »
What's OP?

I do find that he is too slick. Always have a round-about way of answering but never answering the question itself.

Alexander

  • (Shivaswara)
  • vetted member
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1123
Re: Exposing Sadguru Jaggi Vasudev of the Isha Yoga Center
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2015, 04:00:19 PM »
OP means original poster, Sam.
https://alexanderlorincz.com/

"I saw all things gathered in one volume by love - what, in the universe, seemed separate, scattered." (Canto 33)

bodhimind

  • vetted member
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 356
Re: Exposing Sadguru Jaggi Vasudev of the Isha Yoga Center
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2015, 04:15:42 PM »
Members might want to read this :-

http://zaysen.blogspot.sg/2011/04/sadhguru-jaggi-vasudev-his.html

http://nirmukta.com/2012/07/26/jaggi-vasudev-doesnt-understand-science-or-the-nature-of-the-universe/

Thank you for the links gandarloda, it does seem quite inconsistent with the accounts presented by the writer. I think I heard of cases like these, where there was a monk who claimed achievements based on what he read, and the whole monastery even believed him. I do not know if this is true for this Jaggi, but the articles seem to show a different light on him. If he is true in his conduct, then Jaggi will be seen as enlightened, but if he is lying, then Jaggi is a fraud. I think there is no way to know for sure, until one knows the man himself.

OP refers to the thread-starter as "original poster".

Quote
Thank-you, bodhimind, for a very well executed critical analysis of the so-called "Sadguru Jaggi Vasudev of the Isha Yoga Center."  From your excellent analysis it does indeed sound like he may be genuinely enlightened. 

I do wish to point out that the term 'Sadguru' is an honorific, which means 'true guru.'  It sounds like his name is 'Jaggi Vasudev,' so, unless we are going to be his devotee, we should most probably call him by his personal name, and avoid the honorific.

A note on the OP: 
I got to know the OP quite well when he lived with me for a few months, and attended a summer GWV wilderness retreat.  At that time I found him to be a true-believer, who was devoted to SN Goenak, so it would appear that no one would ever be acceptable to him.  In fact, I believe his whole reason from coming to live with me, and attend the summer GWV wilderness retreat, was purely to acquire material to put us at a disadvantage over his "Goenakji."  Thus, his experience of Jaggi Vasudev was surely deeply colored by his devotion to his own guruji, and therefore not critical at all.  In fact during the entire time he lived and retreated with me I never found him capable of exercising critical thinking.  All he ever did was keep asking the same questions over and over again, until they quite drove me mad.

Thank you Jhanananda for the insight into the OP as well. I do want to point out that my analysis is merely based off his videos, his articles and a source that is not very close to me. Hence, it might be possible that on the surface-level, he seems enlightened but is in fact not. As to the personal experience of his personal teaching, I have no way to verify it or critique it, neither am I qualified to do so with my limited experience. I will change 'Sadhguru' to Jaggi, I was not aware that it was a devotional term.

---

I find it so sad that there are people out there who are trying to profit off spiritual seeking, if it is true. People are already suffering, and they rub it in even more just for money. It is such a crime to mislead a person off the right path. It is literally the killing of wisdom.

Sam Lim

  • vetted member
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 422
Re: Exposing Sadguru Jaggi Vasudev of the Isha Yoga Center
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2015, 07:53:00 PM »
Thanks Alexander and bodhimind.

Jhanananda

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4629
    • Great Wesern Vehicle
Re: Exposing Sadguru Jaggi Vasudev of the Isha Yoga Center
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2015, 02:14:13 PM »
I do not happen to believe that it was a coincidence when a devotee of Jaggi Vasudev recently visited me here in this small mountain community.  I suppose as long as we are going to engage in critical review of religion and religious teachers we are likely to have devotees of those we criticize visiting us, and criticizing us as well.
There is no progress without discipline.

If you want to post to this forum, then send me a PM.

Jhanananda

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4629
    • Great Wesern Vehicle
Re: Talk on intellect vs the divine
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2015, 02:37:48 AM »
I loved this talk by Sadhguru, an enlightened yogi. He talked about how intellect only dissects, rather than explains. And it is for this very reason why science will never be able to explain the religious experience...I now see the reason why enlightened beings do not bother trying to awaken people through science. There is no reason to and logic can serve "technologies", as he calls it, but cannot explain the fundamental nature of everything...

I take exception to this belief, as I am a scientist, and I believe that I have done a better job of describing the religious/spiritual experience than anyone else in the last 100 years or so.  In fact I would like to read how Jaggi Vasudev describes the religious/spiritual experience.

PS: please note I merged threads on Jaggi Vasudev here.

Sadhguru interviewed on ABC News

Members might want to read this :-

Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev His Enlightenment and Isha Cult Empire "As It Is"

Jaggi Vasudev Doesn’t Understand Science (or the Nature of the Universe)

I found the "blogger" in the first link rambled so much, and had so much offensive things to say, that his "criticism" was lost in the mire of a personal vindictive.

I found the second link also more interested in character assassination than a critical review of Jaggi Vasudev.  I did listen to one of the videos of Jaggi Vasudev speaking in which he referred to the current solar max.  I did not find either Jaggi Vasudev, nor the critic had spent much time investigating the influence of solar activity upon weather, the psyche and/or physical health.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 03:09:47 AM by Jhanananda »
There is no progress without discipline.

If you want to post to this forum, then send me a PM.