Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche

[Luke Avedon]

Hello,

I guess this one is pretty obvious.  I know this has been touched on elseware, but I thought I would add to the collection of consumer warnings on this thread.

I have found Trungpa’s books nothing more than sophistry but since Shambhala  is clearly the most popular Buddhist group in the west I think it’s worth talking about him.

I think I know most of the famous stories of Trungpa’s poor behavior.  I.e. Sleeping with many students, forcing students to have sex with other students, forcing a student to impregnate another student (both were already married to different people) then demanding the father move to Canada, ostracizing the mother from the group--leaving her without any means of financial support-- then forbidding any of his students from assisting her.  Encouraging his successor to have unprotected sex with many many students, even though they both knew he was HIV positive.   Clearly a deeply deluded and addicted man obsessed with his own power.

Does anyone have anything else? Jeffrey, did you ever meet him? I know you met a lot of these guys back in the day.

I have been thinking about Mr. Trungpa as I attended a long and bizzare “Tibetan New Year’s Dinner” in his honor last night.   The meditation teachers were gulping down glasses of Scotch.  Bizarre fancy plaque  awards were given out to “best meditators”, which is strange enough on it’s own, but to folks who I know don’t have much of a practice and were bragging about getting drunk before meditation courses in their acceptance toasts.  ect.

Many other bizarre toasts were made.  My two favorites were 1.) the lead teacher was clearly very advanced just because he goes on ski trips with Trungpa's son. 2.) I am so grateful for Trungpa showing us a path to awakening that is not very demanding. 3.) Trungpa son has given up everything in life to spread the Dharma (really? He inherited a large financial empire, leads a jet set lifestyle, and is adored and worshiped by countless followers).

Excuses for bad behavior


I once had a very long conversation with a teacher(one of the most charismatic people I have ever met) who was one of Trungpa's long time body guards.  A very nice man, but I couldn't possibly understand how anyone could excuse Trungpa’s behavior.  He claimed since Trungpa was enlightened he had no interest in drugs or sex.  The drugs were only so he could understand where his students (who were mostly hippies) were coming from, and the sex was an opportunity for his female students to be close to him.  He of course never experienced any erotic desire or attachment.  The male students were very jealous that the females got this opportunity to be close to him.

How the racket operates

1.)  Community and Tibetan cultural kitsch are of number one importance.  Nothing wrong with wanting to have a community and I’m sure it often helps people.

2.) The emphasis is always on “you are already perfect just the way you are” and “basic goodness”.  Not using meditation to reduce the behaviors and fetters that lead to your suffering.  This is THE cult mind control method.

3.) Progress is measured by learning more and more secret teachings, not by depth of meditation.  This is why there is so much emphasis on nothing else being possible except for general present moment awareness.  Also you can become a meditation teacher just by paying to be induced through all the secret classes not measured by meditation depth.  SO many teachers have told me that “no mind” is impossible.  Remember any sort of progress is "Spiritual Materialism".  Any form of interest in other traditions is also "Spiritual Materialism."  Cult mind control secret #2.

4.) These teachings are handed down by masters, you can’t possibly understand them or make reasonable skeptical inquiries.  Cult mind control secret #3.

4.) Alcohol and other harmful behaviors are just an advanced practice.  Sure there harmful if one is not advanced.  So in order to behave as poorly as Trungpa one would have to be a Buddha basically.

Experience of Jhana on Shamballa retreats


But I had, perhaps the most powerful meditation experience (dare I say life experience) in a group at Shambhala.  Since then I always see lights when I meditate and experience rapture and happiness and have experienced a level of peace in my life which I never thought possible.  (Although I still have a long long long way to go).

I went on a search of my local area  for instruction.  I thought I would start with Shamballa since I already knew them.  In private interviews I got quite a hard time for my experiences and interests.  The three teachers I got responses from:

1.)  You are being disrespectful to the tradition by mixing in Hinayana stuff.  If you want to study Hinayana get a Theravada teacher, but you are disrespecting both traditions by mixing them here.

2.)  I had an experience like that once on retreat and then experienced “no mind” for a few hours.  Trungpa told me that was a very bad thing, and I realized there was no goal to meditation.  It’s a huge problem and you should stay away from it--because it will only cause craving--and striving.  The Buddha’s highest teaching was basic goodness--not Jhana or anything like that. 

When I replied where in the Suttas or Chinese Agamas did Siddhartha Gautama say that? I really offended the fellow.

3.) (my favorite) You are meditating to help other people, not bliss out.  That is a small Hinayana view.  That is why we are superior to Hinayana.

Also, I have gotten in trouble for mentioning anything from the Sutta Pitaka.

That being said, everyone there is very friendly and the volunteers sure are dedicated.  My impression is the group has reformed from truly scandalous behavior.  One of the new leader’s books did get both my mother and an aunt of mine to start a very very small daily meditation practice a day, which doesn't sound like much, but take my word for it -- it’s a miracle.

There was a bit of a scandal that the new leader even said the attainment of no mind was possible in his latest book.  The new guard is generally trying there best to play down Trungpa and talk about Pema Chodron as much as possible.  As her celebrity is what gets nearly every newcomer in the door.

I think for absolute beginners in most of the USA you are better off going to a group Shambhala class than a Zen center.  The Zen centers have larger problems and most of the students are just interested in self abuse.  The Shambhala centers have very short meditation sessions and everything is super gentle--I think that is probably more helpful for the absolute beginner.

But in the unlikely scenario that there is a reader who is aspiring to be a serious contemplative and wants to learn Jhana and was perhaps considering investing in their “Warrior Level” classes, I would certainly advise NOT spending money on their very expensive courses are retreats. 

Of course, if such a reader exists, I’m sure they have figured that out by now...as everything I am reporting is rather obvious.

[Jhanananda]

Hello,

I guess this one is pretty obvious.  I know this has been touched on elseware, but I thought I would add to the collection of consumer warnings on this thread.

I have found Trungpa’s books nothing more than sophistry but since Shambhala  is clearly the most popular Buddhist group in the west I think it’s worth talking about him.

Thank-you Luke, for your recent contributions to this forum.  I found most of Trungpa’s books were ghost written or transcripts from taped dialogs.  I agree with you, since Shambhala is one of the largest Buddhist movements in the west, then we really need to unpack it.  I did not get much out of Trungpa’s writing, but there are a lot of people who started out in the contemplative life having read one or more of his books, so the many errors in his philosophy frequently have to be corrected.

I think I know most of the famous stories of Trungpa’s poor behavior.  I.e. Sleeping with many students, forcing students to have sex with other students, forcing a student to impregnate another student (both were already married to different people) then demanding the father move to Canada, ostracizing the mother from the group--leaving her without any means of financial support-- then forbidding any of his students from assisting her.  Encouraging his successor to have unprotected sex with many many students, even though they both knew he was HIV positive.   Clearly a deeply deluded and addicted man obsessed with his own power.

Does anyone have anything else? Jeffrey, did you ever meet him? I know you met a lot of these guys back in the day.

Trungpa was so ill behaved that the stories are endless.  So, I agree with your assessment of him.  No, I did not meet him, because I had no interest in meeting him.  Some of the stories of his ill-behavior came my way, so I knew better than to waste my time with him.

I have been thinking about Mr. Trungpa as I attended a long and bizzare “Tibetan New Year’s Dinner” in his honor last night.   The meditation teachers were gulping down glasses of Scotch.  Bizarre fancy plaque  awards were given out to “best meditators”, which is strange enough on it’s own, but to folks who I know don’t have much of a practice and were bragging about getting drunk before meditation courses in their acceptance toasts.  ect.

Many other bizarre toasts were made.  My two favorites were 1.) the lead teacher was clearly very advanced just because he goes on ski trips with Trungpa's son. 2.) I am so grateful for Trungpa showing us a path to awakening that is not very demanding. 3.) Trungpa son has given up everything in life to spread the Dharma (really? He inherited a large financial empire, leads a jet set lifestyle, and is adored and worshiped by countless followers).

Excuses for bad behavior

Clearly Shambhala is for the naive.

I once had a very long conversation with a teacher(one of the most charismatic people I have ever met) who was one of Trungpa's long time body guards.  A very nice man, but I couldn't possibly understand how anyone could excuse Trungpa’s behavior.  He claimed since Trungpa was enlightened he had no interest in drugs or sex.  The drugs were only so he could understand where his students (who were mostly hippies) were coming from, and the sex was an opportunity for his female students to be close to him.  He of course never experienced any erotic desire or attachment.  The male students were very jealous that the females got this opportunity to be close to him.

Trungpa's long time body guard is a classic example of how naive people are about their religion and their teachers.

But I had, perhaps the most powerful meditation experience (dare I say life experience) in a group at Shambhala.  Since then I always see lights when I meditate and experience rapture and happiness and have experienced a level of peace in my life which I never thought possible.  (Although I still have a long long long way to go).

I am confident that you understand that just because you had a profound religious experience at a Shambhala retreat does not mean that they had any influence upon the reasons why you had that experience.  People have profound religious experiences when they are ready, not due to set and setting, or due to methodology.

I went on a search of my local area  for instruction.  I thought I would start with Shamballa since I already knew them.  In private interviews I got quite a hard time for my experiences and interests.  The three teachers I got responses from:

1.)  You are being disrespectful to the tradition by mixing in Hinayana stuff.  If you want to study Hinayana get a Theravada teacher, but you are disrespecting both traditions by mixing them here.

2.)  I had an experience like that once on retreat and then experienced “no mind” for a few hours.  Trungpa told me that was a very bad thing, and I realized there was no goal to meditation.  It’s a huge problem and you should stay away from it--because it will only cause craving--and striving.  The Buddha’s highest teaching was basic goodness--not Jhana or anything like that. 

When I replied where in the Suttas or Chinese Agamas did Siddhartha Gautama say that? I really offended the fellow.

3.) (my favorite) You are meditating to help other people, not bliss out.  That is a small Hinayana view.  That is why we are superior to Hinayana.

Also, I have gotten in trouble for mentioning anything from the Sutta Pitaka.

As we can see the teachers of Shambhala are clueless, therefore their students are clueless.

That being said, everyone there is very friendly and the volunteers sure are dedicated. 

The members of all cults are friendly.

My impression is the group has reformed from truly scandalous behavior. 

We can only hope, but people swilling booze while receiving rewards for being "advanced" meditators, when they obviously have no idea what meditation is or what it can lead to, does not sound to me like a reformed group, on the other hand, they are probably no longer renting big houses in and around Boulder, CO and trashing them with month-long binges.

One of the new leader’s books did get both my mother and an aunt of mine to start a very very small daily meditation practice a day, which doesn't sound like much, but take my word for it -- it’s a miracle.

The sad part is those who know nothing about meditation and what it leads to get their books published; whereas, the serious contemplatives who experience profound religious experiences do not get their books published.

There was a bit of a scandal that the new leader even said the attainment of no mind was possible in his latest book. 

It might be the reason why we are now hearing that no-mind is possible along with bliss, etc. is because people like you and I are starting to have an influence, but if we do not support each other, then chances are we all will be forgotten, while the fraud keeps going on.

The new guard is generally trying there best to play down Trungpa and talk about Pema Chodron as much as possible.  As her celebrity is what gets nearly every newcomer in the door.

While I get that Pema Chodron is a popular writer in western Buddhism, she was; nonetheless, a student of Trungpa's, which means she was part of the debauchery that went on continuously all around him.

I think for absolute beginners in most of the USA you are better off going to a group Shambhala class than a Zen center. 

To me they are both as fraudulent as Insight Meditation Society, Spirit Rock, Goenka, TM, etc.  None of them have any attainment, and they are part of the disempowerment of everyone who has had any attainment whatsoever in their meditation organizations. And, the major religions are just as guilty.

The Zen centers have larger problems and most of the students are just interested in self abuse.  The Shambhala centers have very short meditation sessions and everything is super gentle--I think that is probably more helpful for the absolute beginner.

But in the unlikely scenario that there is a reader who is aspiring to be a serious contemplative and wants to learn Jhana and was perhaps considering investing in their “Warrior Level” classes, I would certainly advise NOT spending money on their very expensive courses are retreats. 

Of course, if such a reader exists, I’m sure they have figured that out by now...as everything I am reporting is rather obvious.

Well, that is it, the serious, disciplined contemplatives would soon find Shambhala, Zen, Insight Meditation Society, Spirit Rock, Goenka, TM, and the major religions are all just frauds.  So, they would end up here.  But, since so few have made it here, then we can conclude that there are very few people who meditate deeply.

[Luke Avedon]

Thank you for your replies Jeffrey.

I am confident that you understand that just because you had a profound religious experience at a Shambhala retreat does not mean that they had any influence upon the reasons why you had that experience.  People have profound religious experiences when they are ready, not due to set and setting, or due to methodology.

Yes, indeed.  I find that for many people if they have a profound experience with a particular group they become life long devotees of that group--which is quite dangerous.  I.e. I believe some of the accounts I have read of people becoming born again Christians fall into this category.  During a weekend intensive prayer/retreat/whatever they accidentally fell into a Jhana and are so impressed that they become devoted to the group for life without question.

I am finding it increasingly difficult to visit the Shambhala people for these reasons, even though they are right down the street.   I think the only reason I ever sit with them is my own pathetic vanity as I don't like people in the group assuming that I have quit my meditation practice when I have only found there methods no longer profitable to my development.

[Jhanananda]

Thank you for your replies Jeffrey.

Yes, indeed.  I find that for many people if they have a profound experience with a particular group they become life long devotees of that group--which is quite dangerous.  I.e. I believe some of the accounts I have read of people becoming born again Christians fall into this category.  During a weekend intensive prayer/retreat/whatever they accidentally fell into a Jhana and are so impressed that they become devoted to the group for life without question.

This is a good point.  I believe what is behind most conversions to most religions is a religious experience, and in most cases it appears to be the first jhana.  People get so overwhelmed by the experience that they tend to reify the experience and confuse the organization as the only, or best, means to that experience.

I am finding it increasingly difficult to visit the Shambhala people for these reasons, even though they are right down the street.   I think the only reason I ever sit with them is my own pathetic vanity as I don't like people in the group assuming that I have quit my meditation practice when I have only found there methods no longer profitable to my development.

Well, I agree with your social conflict, on the other hand every time you show up there you are casting a vote for them; whereas, if all of the people who realized how deeply flawed Trungpa was never returned to a Shambhala meeting, then Shambhala would disappear along with Trungpa the fraud.

Sadly, there is so little support for the GWV we hardly can offer an alternative.  It would be nice if we could have just one urban practice center where people can go, but the people who value the work of the GWV generally do not live in the same town.  So, the frauds win again, lifetime, after lifetime, after lifetime.

[Luke Avedon]

Good point Jeffrey:

Well, I agree with your social conflict, on the other hand every time you show up there you are casting a vote for them; whereas, if all of the people who realized how deeply flawed Trungpa was never returned to a Shambhala meeting, then Shambhala would disappear along with Trungpa the fraud.

You are correct, and I had not thought about that before.  Part of my problem is I get enthusiastic about anyone persuading people who never have practiced to meditate at all that I overlook the glaring faults.  They are certainly skilled at that in my local center.  However, Chogyam Trungpa's legacy is too much of a problem to divorce from their intro meditation instruction.  I sometimes forget that the cult in Japan that carried out those horrific subway nerve gas attacks recruited through beginner meditation instruction classes.  Although I shouldn't compare Shambalah's current activities to something like that.

Once I came to my view on Shambalah I decided to be sure never to support them with donations or buying anything, but as you point out, just my presence is support.  I found out the other day that the space we sit in, the electricity, and liability insurance are all donated by a local charity due to attendance being so high.

I would also have no problem with meditation groups that only teach beginning meditation.  For example, if they said we are agnostic about what to do after you start sitting and relaxing and focusing on your breath.... look around for further instruction yourself...but then again meditation instruction that does not include a description to expect piti and sukkah to arise at some point is doing a great disservice.

On the other hand, I would never have started meditating if it wasn't for the book Meditation For Dummies No mention of Jhana or Buddhism there.  It took me a few years to be open to learning something from Buddhism and even more time to be open to the existence of Jhana.

I have a problem when a group says if you want to go further it is about studying these rituals and not Jhana.  I have a further problem with a group if they tell people they are becoming extremely advanced by setting up a shrine in their home with a picture of Chogram Trungpa on it and revering him like some sort of demi-god.

Sorry to ramble as you can see it is something I ponder.

Sadly, there is so little support for the GWV we hardly can offer an alternative.  It would be nice if we could have just one urban practice center where people can go, but the people who value the work of the GWV generally do not live in the same town.  So, the frauds win again, lifetime, after lifetime, after lifetime.

A great shame for sure.

[Jhanananda]

Good point Jeffrey:

Well, I agree with your social conflict, on the other hand every time you show up there you are casting a vote for them; whereas, if all of the people who realized how deeply flawed Trungpa was never returned to a Shambhala meeting, then Shambhala would disappear along with Trungpa the fraud.

You are correct, and I had not thought about that before.  Part of my problem is I get enthusiastic about anyone persuading people who never have practiced to meditate at all that I overlook the glaring faults.  They are certainly skilled at that in my local center.  However, Chogyam Trungpa's legacy is too much of a problem to divorce from their intro meditation instruction.  I sometimes forget that the cult in Japan that carried out those horrific subway nerve gas attacks recruited through beginner meditation instruction classes.  Although I shouldn't compare Shambalah's current activities to something like that.

I do not think we should get too excited about any old organization that teaches meditation, after all most people who teach meditation had not idea what jhana is, so apparently most people who teach meditation do not experience anything from it.  And, as you pointed out, sociopaths teach meditation as well.

I have a problem when a group says if you want to go further it is about studying these rituals and not Jhana.  I have a further problem with a group if they tell people they are becoming extremely advanced by setting up a shrine in their home with a picture of Chogram Trungpa on it and revering him like some sort of demi-god.

Well, you bring up some good points, but sadly it seems no meditation organization today understands what meditation can lead to, or otherwise all this stuff I am talking about would be well understood by all.