Spontaneous movement

[Jhanananda]

I post this here (kriya thread) because I don't know where a better spot would be.

Since spontaneous movement was a feature of your religious experience, then this thread was as good as any to start with.  However, since you refer to the Sanskrit term 'kundalini', then you could have put it under that thread.  Nonetheless, all of these terms simply refer to specific features of the religious experience,

Being new here, looking around to learn, I see you value highly the term "Mystic."  I haven't found a place here where that term is defined.  From context, it seems descriptive of an outsider's realm, but should be the center, the norm.  So, "mystic" seems to don a robe of rebellion against the mainstream.

My definition of the term 'Mystic' is not mainstream.  My definition of the term 'Mystic' is someone who cultivates, and has, religious experiences.

In fact there is nothing mainstream about me or this forum.  So, the mainstream is going to feel a sense of rebellion here; and arguably we frequently point out the differences between the mainstream point of view on mysticism, verses an "insider's" point of view.

On another thought, from your Samadhi thread, it seems I am experiencing jhanas 2 through 4 in recursive waves, but moving to the edge of #5, which I felt briefly last week at the end of a 2 hr session.  That feeling of floating without context was a bit scary, so I fell out of it fast. But the peace of it stayed with me afterwards, and I want to go back there, and not fall out of it so quickly.

It is understandable that anyone will become frightened about deep religious experiences, partly because the deeper we go the more profound they are.  The other reason why there can be fear about these experiences is because the religious experience is not understood, or valued, by the mainstream.

I know I can't rush things.  So I just continue.  Sometimes the kundalini is almost painful, but not if I relax in trust.  And the bliss is full body waves of orgasm.  Who knew sex was spiritual?  This bliss/pain cycle keeps going, but is never the same as last time.  It isn't boring, but it would be if it didn't keep moving forward.  I feel fortunate to have landed in this place of practice, and want to go as far as I can.

One moves through the stages of the religious experience as quickly as one wants to, and invests the time and effort to do so.  It is understandable that once one taps into the religious experience one wants to make a career out of cultivating them, which makes one a mystic.

The religious experience is often related to the sexual experience, but to me the only thing that makes them similar is they can be profound pleasures.

Thanks for this forum and your perspective.
David Morris

You are welcome, and please do keep filing reports of any progress you make.

[bodhimind]

While maintaining mindfulness of the body, I felt energetic flow through my body... And when it reached my arms yesterday, my right hand suddenly jumped into a strange mudra (like an "OK" sign) from the samadhi pose. The strange thing was that it lasted a few seconds then jumped back to exactly where it was. I could feel as if there was some ironing out of energy causing the muscle spasm.

[Jhanananda]

Yes, blocked energy suddenly releasing does explain in part the various spontaneous movements that are part of the kriya.  However, when the body moves into a mudra, or a yoga posture on its own, then we cannot explain it by simply blocked energy suddenly releasing.  So, we have to accept that there are multiple phenomena that fall under this class of religious experience.

[Jhanek]

I wonder if rapid eye movements like those in REM state or those in deep samadhi like presented here are within this subject:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv0_njLTfy8&t=1s 1:02

Here Sri Chinmoy 'presents' nirvikalpa samadhi - he can maintain overview effect and his eyes are following the mind issuing thoughts, although he does not need eyes to see it.

Conclusion: Chinmoy is having quasi-spontanous eye movements; sometimes  for minutes.

Additional question: is this state or developping and managing this state is awakening factor? I assume so, because sutras say one have to remain equanimous to body and mind. Please correct me.

Can we say that bodily reactions like some of You guys mentioned are sort of necessary while progressing?

[Jhanananda]

I wonder if rapid eye movements like those in REM state or those in deep samadhi like presented here are within this subject:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv0_njLTfy8&t=1s 1:02

Here Sri Chinmoy 'presents' nirvikalpa samadhi - he can maintain overview effect and his eyes are following the mind issuing thoughts, although he does not need eyes to see it.

Conclusion: Chinmoy is having quasi-spontanous eye movements; sometimes  for minutes.

It is possible.  We would have to investigate his life more closely to see if he manifested the superior fruit of attainment.  We should not assume, just because some claims to be enlightened, and may have a lot of followers, does not necessitate that the individual is indeed enlightened.

Additional question: is this state or developping and managing this state is awakening factor? I assume so, because sutras say one have to remain equanimous to body and mind. Please correct me.

I do not recall at this time the Pali term for the "awakening factor."  However, I do recall that all of the awakening factors are indeed components of the deep meditation experience, or the product there of.

Can we say that bodily reactions like some of You guys mentioned are sort of necessary while progressing?

I believe that we should all come to accept that the phenomena that we have been discussing here are shared experiences in deep meditation.

[Jhanek]

I do not recall at this time the Pali term for the "awakening factor."  However, I do recall that all of the awakening factors are indeed components of the deep meditation experience, or the product there of.

I mean by that the final liberation achieved by Gotama the Buddha is called awakening which is different state than those reached by others. So I am looking for the missing factor or procedure that is responsible for awakening state. State between Arhat's nirodha samapatti [8th jhana?] and samma sambuddha - final result, 100% purity.

Maybe calling it 'factor' is wrong. I am doing research to be sure how the path looks further, how to prepare for it.

[Jhanananda]

Janek, the 8th stage of samadhi is called "Nevasannanasannnayatana" in the suttas.

Whereas, nirodha samapatti is full liberation, which occurs after mastering all 8 stages of samadhi.  It is a state in which one has no craving; therefore, one is fully liberated, or enlightened.

[zenbooster]

Yesterday, for the first time, I experienced involuntary rocking while meditating. Rocked forward - backward, and even up - down! With a frequency of ~ 1.5 - 2 times per second. Sometimes I even doubted whether my physical body makes these movements, but I did not open my eyes. Does this have anything to do with the phantom swaying through which one can get an OBE, or is it just the spontaneous movements that are normal during meditation?

[Jhanananda]

In my experience, zenbooster, depth in meditation depends upon depth in relaxation, so when I relax deeply I notice my body starts to rock and with several decades of observation of this phenomena I believe it is caused by the pumping of blood along the aorta, while the body is relaxed so that the oscillation is simply a natural phenomena associated with depth in relaxation.

[zenbooster]

After observing myself a little more, I was convinced that the reason was not the pumping of blood through the aorta. Too distinct and amplitude movements. Previously, I experienced goose bumps (some call them an autonomous sensory meridian response), now these movements occur much more often.

[zenbooster]

Just keeping you posted, if anyone is interested, or maybe someone is going down a similar path...

For two months now, almost as soon as I start meditating, I start experiencing jolts and jerks. Quite strong. Sometimes with pauses, sometimes continuously. You could even say that I'm shaking. Sometimes at such moments I try to relax more. If I stop the shaking with an effort of will, after relaxing it spontaneously starts again. Sometimes I feel increasing tension in my abdominal muscles. I can't say that it's painful or unpleasant, but I hope that in the future it will transform into the right direction. I just try to keep my focus on my breathing.
This can happen even with my eyes open, if you concentrate on your breathing!
10 months ago I started attending hatha yoga once a week, and recently my teacher and I started organizing 30-minute meditation sessions also once a week, but on a different day. There is no shaking in such sessions. Perhaps because in a group it is more difficult to let yourself go as much as it happens at home.

[Jhanananda]

Thank you, zenbooster, for posting your interesting question. The first thing that we have to establish is whether this is a kriya, or a neurological condition. If your mind is still, and you are experiencing the recognizable components of depth in meditation before these spontaneous movements occur, then it is reasonable to accept that they are indeed kriyas. How often do you meditate? How long is your typical meditation session? How long have you been meditating? Based upon the criteria here what depth in the meditation experience do you believe you are at when these spontaneous movements occur?

[zenbooster]

I have been meditating since June 2022. There have been a couple of breaks, but overall I try to meditate at least once a day. Sometimes 2 times a day. With my lifestyle, it is difficult to find time so that you are not disturbed during the time allocated for meditation, or so that you do not fall off your feet from fatigue. Usually I meditate for 20 minutes. I don’t think I have ever gone further than the 3rd jhana. Yes, at the beginning my mind is restless, but after a while I become more and more peaceful while staying on the object of meditation. I also hear tinnitus, and earlier I switched to it as an object of meditation more often than lately. Perhaps it is worth paying more attention to it again... A couple of days ago I again tried to gently stop the shaking, forming in return the intention to remain even more relaxed and at the same time maintaining attention to how the air comes into contact with my nostrils. And it seemed to improve the situation.

[zenbooster]

Now after I sent the message I meditated, and there was almost no shaking at all. Probably your forum had a beneficial effect

[Jhanananda]

I have been meditating since June 2022. There have been a couple of breaks, but overall I try to meditate at least once a day. Sometimes 2 times a day.

This is a very good practice strategy, and supports you experiencing jhana; however, we have to also be making an effort to follow the whole of the Noble Eightfold path, not just part of it, because the Noble Eightfold path is a lifestyle not a belief system that produces jhana.

With my lifestyle, it is difficult to find time so that you are not disturbed during the time allocated for meditation, or so that you do not fall off your feet from fatigue.

Do you only practice meditation standing? The suttas describe meditation practice in the 4 basic postures of sitting, standing, walking and lying down. I regularly practice in all four postures and find them useful and productive.

Usually I meditate for 20 minutes.

Most people take 20 minutes of meditation just to get to the first jhana, and I find meditating in hour long intervals fruitful, so it is hard to argue you are experiencing any level of jhana with only a 20 minute meditation session, but it is not impossible.

I don’t think I have ever gone further than the 3rd jhana. Yes, at the beginning my mind is restless, but after a while I become more and more peaceful while staying on the object of meditation. I also hear tinnitus, and earlier I switched to it as an object of meditation more often than lately. Perhaps it is worth paying more attention to it again...

If you are finding peacefulness during meditation then this is the second jhana, and the charismatic sound is the third jhana, so it sounds like you are indeed experiencing depth in meditation, so the spontaneous movements that you are experiencing could be indeed kriya.

A couple of days ago I again tried to gently stop the shaking, forming in return the intention to remain even more relaxed and at the same time maintaining attention to how the air comes into contact with my nostrils. And it seemed to improve the situation.

The point of the charisms, such as kriya is not to stop them, but to allow them to occur naturally, which leads to greater depth in meditation.

Now after I sent the message I meditated, and there was almost no shaking at all. Probably your forum had a beneficial effect

I hope that we have been of some help to you. It does sound like you are experiencing depth in meditation. I hope you keep up your practice and consider intensifiying it when you are comfortable doing so.