Ichigo's Practice Report

[Ichigo]

Hey!

Just recently I came across this site and would like to report my very little
experiences with Anapanasati Meditation.

First of all I haven't really been practicing day by day meditation.. I was
more into Kundalini Yoga (mostly pranayama to raise Kundalini).
anyway, few months ago I practiced maybe for about 2 weeks meditation and at
my very first practice I already had piti and sukha arising, obviously I was
very excited and lost it, I had maybe another 2 sessions the same thing
happening and also a session when hearing buzzing noises inside my head
vibrating.. just small things but still amazing in their own right.

Anyway recently (yesterday) I picked up Anapanasati meditation again and used
a new strategy to intense my concentration more by counting the breaths, on
the inhale 1,1,1,1,1 exhale 2,2,2,2,2 and so on.. I got that part from focused
and fearless book.

after some time i found myself tracing the breaths without any thoughts in my
way I stopped the counting thing and continued following the breath with
intensity then a very intense glowing warm fuzziness started growing in my
body.. I continued the breathing a little bit more to make that sensation grow
even bigger and then I moved my attention to the pleasant sensation and gave
in.. it grew very big and was very intense, my body was vibrating or trembling
and twitching like hell! and there was this force pull from bottom to head, I
tried to stay with the sensations but eventually I lost it to the lost of
concentration.

If I succeed in staying with the pleasant sensations without losing
concentration.. what can I expect to happen? what is suppose to be happen? and
how long do I stay with the pleasant sensation before I return to the breath
again? how do I know if I entered the first jhana or I was ABOUT to enter the
first jhana?

Usually I follow the breath on the inhale and exhale with the air sensations it creates in my nostrils, in and out.

My question is.. some suggest to leave your attention on the point between the nostrils and follow the air sensations there.. does that give different results then the one above?

Another thing is, let's say for a while my attention is at the nostrils and after a few breaths my attention slips to another part of the nose, let's say to the point between the nostrils because sensation is felt there more then the nostrils sometimes.. does this change of focus hinder the progress in getting into a Jhana state?

Reading some of your post I feel you hold a lot of experience and have a
realistic perspective..

Really would like to hear your say about this.

Thanks!

[Jhanananda]

Hey!

Just recently I came across this site and would like to report my very little
experiences with Anapanasati Meditation.

Welcome, Ichigo, and thank-you for posting here your case history report on religious experiences that you had from practicing meditation.

First of all I haven't really been practicing day by day meditation..

Most of the case histories that are posted here come from people who meditate every day.  I found that I needed a daily practice of meditation to develop and hone my religious experiences, so you may find you need to develop some discipline as well.

I was more into Kundalini Yoga (mostly pranayama to raise Kundalini).

One of the common myths in religion is that some meditation technique or ritual practice, such as yoga, pranayama, or Kundalini yoga are designed to specifically raise the kundalini; however, I lived in a Kundalini yoga ashram for 3 months and found I was the only one experiencing kundalini, and I got there through leading a disciplined contemplative life, and not from breathing exercises, or physical exercises, nor prayers or ritual practices.

anyway, few months ago I practiced maybe for about 2 weeks meditation and at
my very first practice I already had piti and sukha arising,

One of the fascinating things for me about the study of the religious experience is most people just stumble upon it, and they often get there quickly.  That was my experience as well.

obviously I was very excited and lost it, I had maybe another 2 sessions the same thing
happening and also a session when hearing buzzing noises inside my head
vibrating.. just small things but still amazing in their own right.

I have found the arising of the charisms, or 'jhana-nimitta' as the suttas call them, are a characteristic of the 3rd and higher levels of the religious experience (3rd jhana).  So, you were doing very well.

Anyway recently (yesterday) I picked up Anapanasati meditation again and used
a new strategy to intense my concentration more by counting the breaths, on
the inhale 1,1,1,1,1 exhale 2,2,2,2,2 and so on.. I got that part from focused
and fearless book.

after some time i found myself tracing the breaths without any thoughts in my
way I stopped the counting thing and continued following the breath with
intensity

Realizing that you had to dump the technique of counting to progress deeper is an example of intuitive, revelatory insight, which one needs to learn to meditate deeply.  When the thoughts stop, then your mind is relatively still, which is the characteristic of the 2nd stage of the religious experience (2nd jhana).  This is very good progress.

then a very intense glowing warm fuzziness started growing in my
body..

This "glowing warm fuzziness" is the beginning of the arising of energy, which was called 'virtue' which is a charism.  Before the term 'kundalini' appeared in Indic literature the term was 'virya' which is related to the English term 'virtue'.

I continued the breathing a little bit more to make that sensation grow
even bigger and then I moved my attention to the pleasant sensation and gave
in..

Realizing that you had to make adjustments in your meditation practice in response to the arising of charisms (jhana-nimtta) to progress deeper is an another example of intuitive, revelatory insight, which one needs to learn to meditate deeply.

it grew very big and was very intense, my body was vibrating or trembling
and twitching like hell! and there was this force pull from bottom to head,

This is proof that making adjustments in your meditation practice in response to the arising of charisms (jhana-nimtta) to progress deeper in meditation worked for you.  It works for me, and my students as well.

Your experience here is a classic description of the rising of the kundalini, and you did it without practicing kundalini yoga.  I am not surprised, since in 2 years of living in and out of kundalini yoga ashrams, and meeting Yogi Bhajan I never saw, nor heard, anyone have this experience; however, I had it on a regular basis, and it was through the practice of meditation, not breath of fire, or yoga postures. 

Just a note here, Yogi Bhajan seemed to be deeply threatened by my presence in his ashrams, which suggests that he was afraid of someone who was the real deal.  That was nearly 40 years ago.

I tried to stay with the sensations but eventually I lost it to the lost of
concentration.

The kundalini does not just stay up forever, nor does the religious experience go on forever, at least not until we are dead.  However, one can hone one's lifestyle to the point that one can have such religious experiences every time one meditates.  In my experience the lifestyle transformation necessary to have such religious experiences every time one meditates tends to be radical.

If I succeed in staying with the pleasant sensations without losing
concentration.. what can I expect to happen? what is suppose to be happen?

In my experience such religious experiences can last up to 3 hours; and the experience can deepen far more than you described here.  Typically there is a profound loss of identity in a brilliant light, and thunderous sound. The result is typically a profound transformational experience in which one will do anything to keep those religious experiences happening.  One typically comes back with no addictions, or bad habits, or sins, or fetters, or hindrances, (or whatever term you like) left.  This is what liberation (vimokha) is all about.

and how long do I stay with the pleasant sensation before I return to the breath again?

Well, that is up to you, but the longer you stay with the charisms (jhana-nimitta) typically the deeper you will go.

how do I know if I entered the first jhana or I was ABOUT to enter the first jhana?

You were way past the first stage of the religious experience (1st jhana).  Piiti and sukha are the characteristics of the 1st jhana.  You started with that; stilled your mind, which is the 2nd jhana; then you kept going to at least the 3rd and possibly the 4th jhana.

Usually I follow the breath on the inhale and exhale with the air sensations it creates in my nostrils, in and out.

My question is.. some suggest to leave your attention on the point between the nostrils and follow the air sensations there.. does that give different results then the one above?

It does not matter what you do, as long as it works.  Whatever you are doing works, so stick with that.

Another thing is, let's say for a while my attention is at the nostrils and after a few breaths my attention slips to another part of the nose, let's say to the point between the nostrils because sensation is felt there more then the nostrils sometimes.. does this change of focus hinder the progress in getting into a Jhana state?

Apparently not for you.  Just follow your intuition (insight), because there is no formula that applies to everyone.

Reading some of your post I feel you hold a lot of experience and have a
realistic perspective..

Really would like to hear your say about this.

Thanks!

Thank-you Ichigo, for posting your case history, and expressing your appreciation for this work.  Keep up the work, and keep going deeper, and keep posting here so that others can learn from you.

[Ichigo]

Thanks a lot for your explanation motivation and inspiration!

I have been practicing meditation at least 3-4 times 45 minutes each session per day since the last mail that I have sent you.

Unfortuenly there isn't much to report, however in some sessions sometimes it feels that the pleasurable sensations are about to rise but just don't make it all the way up to there.

but that's fine! I will just have to continue practicing!

Since then I have also read some more of your post on this site or on youtube and watched some videos to get a greater idea about the whole subject of Jhanas since there are many, well at least it looks like to me misconceptions and non accurate information out there that I can relate enough to unlike to your jhanas which makes much more sense to me even though I hardly hold enough experience.

This "glowing warm fuzziness" is the beginning of the arising of energy, which was called 'virtue' which is a charism.  Before the term 'kundalini' appeared in Indic literature the term was 'virya' which is related to the English term 'virtue'.

2 years ago I used to do a kind of rapid breathing pranayama which made me be able to raise Kundalini up the spine to the head everyday for about 1-2 weeks and explode there, well actually my whole body exploded into an orgasmic kind of state and had many surges going through my spine and body. since then that technique wouldn't work for me anymore. it was more like my system was "activated" and every pranayama probably would have worked since I also did a few sequence breaths of Breath of Fire (Kapalbhati) and had surges going through me.

I forgot to mention that this glowing warm fuzziness I felt mostly on the upper part of the spine which reminded me of some of the effects I had when I had surges going through me.

If you don't mind I got two questions:

1. What's your opinion on the so called Access Concentration, and one pointedness concentration? is that what makes one to experience Jhana eventually? or is it the stilling of the mind? many sites will mention those two things, but is that really so? how can we be sure? and if it's correct or not can you talk about your take on it out from your own experience?

2. I really like meditating but it's really frustrating when one have some degree of control on the breath.. what's your take on this? and how does one change this attitude? when you started out did you had this problem as well? and did it hinder your mystic experiences?

[Jhanananda]

Thanks a lot for your explanation motivation and inspiration!

You are welcome.  Thank-you for participating in this forum for mystics, and those who aspire to become one.

I have been practicing meditation at least 3-4 times 45 minutes each session per day since the last mail that I have sent you.

This is excellent

Unfortuenly there isn't much to report, however in some sessions sometimes it feels that the pleasurable sensations are about to rise but just don't make it all the way up to there. but that's fine! I will just have to continue practicing!

Sorry to hear no attainment has taken place, but good to know that you feel as if some bliss is going to arise.  The trick is to learn to relax deeply, while being sensitive to the arising of bliss, and responding appropriately to its arising to enhance it.

Another thing to keep in mind is ethical discipline is just as important as the daily practice of meditation.  So, do your best to avoid the addictions/sins/hindrances/fetters, while being consistent about your daily mediation practice.

Since then I have also read some more of your post on this site or on youtube and watched some videos to get a greater idea about the whole subject of Jhanas since there are many, well at least it looks like to me misconceptions and non accurate information out there that I can relate enough to unlike to your jhanas which makes much more sense to me even though I hardly hold enough experience.

Good to know that you are using your discrimination, and critical thinking.

2 years ago I used to do a kind of rapid breathing pranayama which made me be able to raise Kundalini up the spine to the head everyday for about 1-2 weeks and explode there, well actually my whole body exploded into an orgasmic kind of state and had many surges going through my spine and body. since then that technique wouldn't work for me anymore. it was more like my system was "activated" and every pranayama probably would have worked since I also did a few sequence breaths of Breath of Fire (Kapalbhati) and had surges going through me.

I forgot to mention that this glowing warm fuzziness I felt mostly on the upper part of the spine which reminded me of some of the effects I had when I had surges going through me.

This is promising.  So, do what you can to enhance the experience through the practice of meditation instead of breathing exercises.

If you don't mind I got two questions:

1. What's your opinion on the so called Access Concentration, and one pointedness concentration? is that what makes one to experience Jhana eventually? or is it the stilling of the mind? many sites will mention those two things, but is that really so? how can we be sure? and if it's correct or not can you talk about your take on it out from your own experience?

Above you mentioned that there seemed to you to be a fair amount of misinformation out there regarding jhana.  In my opinion "Access Concentration, and one pointedness concentration" are among that fetid pile of misinformation.  In most cases I find the experience of jhana is too often misinterpreted as "merely Access Concentration."  Also, jhana and samadhi are commonly misinterpreted as merely  "Concentration."  The practice of Meditation is all about Concentration, and being one pointed; however, samadhi and jhana are religious experiences that are characterized by bliss, joy, ecstasy and an altered state of consciousness that is of heightened awareness.

2. I really like meditating but it's really frustrating when one have some degree of control on the breath.. what's your take on this? and how does one change this attitude? when you started out did you had this problem as well? and did it hinder your mystic experiences?

Well, those who experience the religious experience (jhana) learn to like the practice of meditation, so you might be there already.  The first stage of the religious experience (1st jhana) is not some fantastic experience, it is simply pleasant and enjoyable, which keeps us coming back for more.

I am not sure what you mean by "control on the breath."  One of the things that tends to keep people from experiencing the religious experience (jhana) is a need for control.  Whereas, the religious experience (jhana) is all about letting go, relaxing deeply, and allowing the religious experience (jhana) to arise on its own.

I hope this helps.

[pj]

Depending on which sensations you turn your focus to while meditating you can have different results.  However, I strongly urge you to be certain that the sensations (/charisms if you like) that you turn your focus to are not rooted in craving or desire to enter deeper states.  In my practice I have found that at times I would focus on a sensation of pressure that would intensify, however, I am fairly certain that  the sensation was actually a result of me rejecting other sensations in the body.  As such, focusing on that sensation of pressure actually made my focus worse, and less inclusive/calm.  It wasnt until I started practicing the Brahma-Viharas that I realized my focus was unwholesome.  I highly recommend a little practice with metta, to be sure that you are opening up to these states, rather than clinging to them (and thus preventing further progress).  This sounds kinda strange, but your focus needs to be born from letting go, not from desiring things to be a certain way. 

Also, from what I can tell when I first enter (well more like fall I guess) into a deeper state of meditation than I have ever reached before, it takes me at least a month to be able to enter such a state again.  Longer to reach it consistently.  This time is compounded if the experience has been deeply conceptualized since this will interfere with letting go of expectations during meditation.

[Ichigo]

Thanks for your opinion PJ!

I am not sure what you mean by "control on the breath."  One of the things that tends to keep people from experiencing the religious experience (jhana) is a need for control.  Whereas, the religious experience (jhana) is all about letting go, relaxing deeply, and allowing the religious experience (jhana) to arise on its own.

What I mean is is that when one is trying to be aware of following the breath, usually there is this tendency to control the physical breath.. it's not easy to let the body regulate the breath automatically alone (without me interfering), on autopilot.. so when I am following the breath I feel like to some degree I am pushing on the inhale and on the exhale to some degree. (this is quite a common problem from what I heard).

[Jhanananda]

What I mean is is that when one is trying to be aware of following the breath, usually there is this tendency to control the physical breath.. it's not easy to let the body regulate the breath automatically alone (without me interfering), on autopilot.. so when I am following the breath I feel like to some degree I am pushing on the inhale and on the exhale to some degree. (this is quite a common problem from what I heard).

Oh yes, I agree that meditating upon any object can lead to a sense of control, so one really has to work on letting go of everything, even, as PJ put it, craving for higher states.

One of the most profound meditation practices I did about 10 years ago was to pray for death.  I would lie down every night and say, "I am ready, please take me."  I had profound religious experiences, OOBEs, other worlds, planes of exists, etc.  But, I was always disappointed to find myself back on this planet the next morning.  Anyway, real depth in meditation requires that level of letting go, and even more.

[Ichigo]

Hello,

Today I used a different approach to get one pointed concentration on the breath.

Near the end of my second session which consisted of 45 minutes suddenly pleasant sensations arised, immediately I scanned the body where the sensations are strong enough, I noticed my hands are really feeling good (and just today I have read somewhere that most people feel the pleasant sensation arise at the hands) so I went for the hands and after that on some other places and tried to give in.. for a good few seconds I enjoyed the pleasant sensations in the body.. the sensations were hovering or moving in some kind of pattern from place to place like a wheel.. kinda hard to describe, it's like you feel the pleasurable sensations getting lower at one place and more intensify in another place and I am "following" that pattern. it's a little bit magnetic like actually.

after I got excited and my mental chattery didn't shut it's mouth slowly the sensations faded away but there was some sort of after glow that of the effects in the body.. so it was quite pleasant!

I observed that when the pleasant sensations rise it starts with a very warm feeling at the throat or head like bursting in laughter and then it gets more physical, while there is some emotional pleasure, still it feels like physically you get wrapped by something very nice!

One other thing that I noticed is when I get wrapped in the intensity of the pleasurable feelings, is that it feels as if my breathing gets heavy.. like I need to take in some breaths but I don't really need to.. are you familiar with this?
Also there is some kind of pressure force in the head that's "pushing down"

Another thing is I think I heard some vibration or buzzing when all this firework is going on.. I am not %100 sure, it's quite subtle I think.

Thanks!

[Jhanananda]

Hello,

Today I used a different approach to get one pointed concentration on the breath.

Near the end of my second session which consisted of 45 minutes suddenly pleasant sensations arised, immediately I scanned the body where the sensations are strong enough, I noticed my hands are really feeling good (and just today I have read somewhere that most people feel the pleasant sensation arise at the hands) so I went for the hands and after that on some other places and tried to give in.

In the first year of my contemplative life in 1973 I too noticed pleasant sensations on various parts of the body; and, like you, I found those pleasant sensations frequently in my hands.  Those pleasant sensations were not what I was used to as normal physical and/or emotional sensations.  I still feel very strong pleasant sensations in the hands, both when I meditation and throughout the day.

for a good few seconds I enjoyed the pleasant sensations in the body.. the sensations were hovering or moving in some kind of pattern from place to place like a wheel.. kinda hard to describe, it's like you feel the pleasurable sensations getting lower at one place and more intensify in another place and I am "following" that pattern. it's a little bit magnetic like actually.

Yes, I too feel the sensations as a little electromagnetic in nature, but I doubt if they really are.

Also, I too experience the sensations moving about, but instead of following them around, I in a sense step back from all of he sensations, tactile, auditory, etc. and observe the ever changing nature of them (anicca) as a multi-sensory symphony that I find far more compelling than music, so I do not listen to music anymore, because I have this engaging multi-sensory symphony to observe instead.  And, I find saturating myself in this multi-sensory symphony I am released from any cravings.

after I got excited and my mental chattery didn't shut it's mouth slowly the sensations faded away but there was some sort of after glow that of the effects in the body.. so it was quite pleasant!

Yes, one of the difficulties with the contemplative life is we get so excited when some new charism arises, that we might lose our focus on meditation and come out of the experience.  It just takes practice to the point that we get so familiar with the territory that we no longer loose out equanimity during meditation.

I observed that when the pleasant sensations rise it starts with a very warm feeling at the throat or head like bursting in laughter and then it gets more physical, while there is some emotional pleasure, still it feels like physically you get wrapped by something very nice!

Yes, there is a glow to the charisms, and that glow can be so exciting that we might just burst into laughter.  That glow can also follow us all day long, especially if we can maintain our attention upon it during the day.

The glow of the charisms of the religious experience in meditation can feel like a cloak, or mantel or blanket.  This experience has been reported by many mystics in the past and the present.  We mystics find it comforting.

One other thing that I noticed is when I get wrapped in the intensity of the pleasurable feelings, is that it feels as if my breathing gets heavy.. like I need to take in some breaths but I don't really need to.. are you familiar with this?

Yes, sometimes the breath can become heavy, or it can even take a life of its own, when in a religious experience.  The best thing to do at that time is just sit back and enjoy the ride, because the religious experience is taking over.

Also there is some kind of pressure force in the head that's "pushing down"

This phenomena is also commonly reported by people who learn to meditate deeply.  In Hinduism it is called the crown chakra.  In my experience it typically precedes an explosive kundalini experience.

Another thing is I think I heard some vibration or buzzing when all this firework is going on.. I am not %100 sure, it's quite subtle I think.

Thanks!

At first most of the charisms are so subtle that we are not sure they are arising, but, as we pay attention to them, then they become pronounced.  The best thing is just to relax deeply and enjoy the ride of deep meditation.

Thank-you, Ichigo, for posting your practice report here.  I find discussing a person's practice and attainment helps others understand what is taking place in their meditation practice; and it also serves to inspire others to engage in a rigorous, self-aware, ethical, contemplative life.

[Ichigo]

Thanks a lot Jhanananda! Your words hold so much value that reading books wouldn't fill me as you are.

Looks like I got a good day today?

Sesssion 3:

Around 20 minutes a nice sensation was felt at the base of the spine, I moved attention to there and it spread from the legs up to the upper body and then it faded away slowly from the same path it came up leaving a weak trail behind.
there was a "pushing up force" this time.
 
After that a small buzz was felt at the base of the spine for a couple of minutes.

[Jhanananda]

Thanks a lot Jhanananda! Your words hold so much value that reading books wouldn't fill me as you are.

You are welcome, Ichigo.  Just remember that there are always ups and downs in the contemplative life, so some days are going to be good, and other days are going to be not so good, but if you keep showing up for meditation, then occasionally you will hit the jack pot.  If you keep showing up for meditation, then the jack pots get bigger and bigger.  Overall, by cultivating the religious experience you not only gain in inspiration, but the religious experience burns away the unwholesome habits.

Looks like I got a good day today?

Sesssion 3:

Around 20 minutes a nice sensation was felt at the base of the spine, I moved attention to there and it spread from the legs up to the upper body and then it faded away slowly from the same path it came up leaving a weak trail behind.
there was a "pushing up force" this time.
 
After that a small buzz was felt at the base of the spine for a couple of minutes.

These are all indications of the arising of energy, virtue, virya, kundalini, the Holy Spirit, Shekhinah.  In the way these terms are used in their original literature they are synonyms, and it is arising in you from your rigorous, self-aware, ethical, contemplative life..

[Ichigo]

You are welcome, Ichigo.  Just remember that there are always ups and downs in the contemplative life, so some days are going to be good, and other days are going to be not so good, but if you keep showing up for meditation, then occasionally you will hit the jack pot.  If you keep showing up for meditation, then the jack pots get bigger and bigger.  Overall, by cultivating the religious experience you not only gain in inspiration, but the religious experience burns away the unwholesome habits.

I noticed, for example today in one of my sessions I had to make extra effort of attention on sensation for piti to grow (piti is the warm fuzzy sensation?) and even when it grew it was quite weak and I was like "that's all? give me a break.." there also wasn't any sukha involved.

In another session in about 20 minutes I was able to generate piti and I tried to be as relax as possible and it was more intense then previous time.. but what made it more intense I think was the sukha involved, at least I think there was sukha involved because it felt more blissful in my throat, or more like you feel like you are chocking and you want to explode to be blissed out.. (like a urge your holding against) so this time I was able to hold the feelings a little bit longer even though at the beginning it faded away, but I was trying to "hold" it to make it grow back and in some way I succeeded but eventually everything fades away.

I feel that I am quite familiar now with the arising of these sensations even though there still exist some excitement on some level.. in some way I feel that part of my attention on the breath and my will which helps me generate these sensations.

I feel like I need some clarifications though..

Let's say the pleasurable sensations slowly fade away.. would it be a better approach to return to the breath or keep following these sensations for them to grow back and continue from there?

What kind of sustained attention does it require to stay in the 2nd jhana for a long long time and attain the 3th Jhana?

"And furthermore, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture, so that there is nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture.

I guess in the 3th Jhana the pleasurable sensations (piti and sukha and whatever fireworks) physical and emotional feelings disappear completely?
How can I be sure that I am in the 3th Jhana and didn't just lose the sensations of the 2nd Jhana because of lost of attention? I am not sure that I know what it feels like to attain Equanimity..

If that's really the case, via what did you determinate back then I entered the 3th or 4th jhana?

If it takes about 30 minutes to enter from the 2nd jhana to the 3th Jhana, does that mean one will experience pleasurable sensations the whole 30 minutes until reaching the 3th Jhana?
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In today's practice session 9/18/2013:

Session 2:

It took for the glowing warm sensation a very long time to build up and even when it did it just stopped, it was weak and faded away almost completely.. but maybe this might be the first time that I felt a feeling of tranquillity and my body and breath felt "light" for at least 5-10 minutes after sensations faded away and there might have been a subtle feeling of buzzing remaining in the body.. however I am sure there are levels of tranquility and there might be much much much more deeper levels from what I have felt today.. it was hard for me to choose what to stay with.. the tranquility as an object which means just resting in that or continuing with the breath as an object.. I tried both ways and the breathing felt very light and noticed that my mind is quite still even though the mental chattery sometimes is jumpy but thoughts and images were almost or totally absent.

Session 2:

Same like before but tranquility was present longer and also after thesession for a while. body felt quite light. my mind was pretty sharp and alert.
When I placed my attention on the breath it felt like instant 1 pointed concentration from just placing my mind on it so it felt really effortless smooth and light

Session 3:

It took a while for a nice sensation to pop up and build up a little bit and when it did it stopped and faded slowly away.. however I don't really feel excited anymore in those states, I just give myself in to it yet I have no idea why there is such a lack of piti today.


Kindly,
Ichigo

[Ichigo]

Session Report 9/19/2013:

Worst day ever! in the first 3 sessions not even once did pleasurable feelings arise and my concentration wasn't any worse then previous sessions.. thoughts hardly bothered me.. in fact I felt the concentration and alertness on the object was very high, so it looks to me strange that meditating 45-60 minutes wouldn't bring anything up..

[Jhanananda]

I noticed, for example today in one of my sessions I had to make extra effort of attention on sensation for piti to grow (piti is the warm fuzzy sensation?) and even when it grew it was quite weak and I was like "that's all? give me a break.." there also wasn't any sukha involved.

I just noticed that I must have overlooked this post in your practice report.  Sorry.

Yes, the "warm fuzzy sensation" during meditation is the early stages of piiti (charisms).  We just have to learn to recognize the charisms as soon as we can determine them during our meditation practice and switch our attention from the cognitive meditation object to the charisms (jhana-nimitta), like a practical cook observes the pleasure of his or her guests when eating the chef's meal.

In another session in about 20 minutes I was able to generate piti and I tried to be as relax as possible and it was more intense then previous time.. but what made it more intense I think was the sukha involved, at least I think there was sukha involved because it felt more blissful in my throat, or more like you feel like you are chocking and you want to explode to be blissed out.. (like a urge your holding against) so this time I was able to hold the feelings a little bit longer even though at the beginning it faded away, but I was trying to "hold" it to make it grow back and in some way I succeeded but eventually everything fades away.

I found the choking sensation during meditation is a sign that the throat chakra is opening.  Good work.

Yes, there is a need to learn to hold, and manipulate the charisms, but that is difficult to do, when we are habituated to control.  So, just learning to let go in the beginning is important, then learning to subtly control the religious experience comes later.  You might be at that transition space.

I feel that I am quite familiar now with the arising of these sensations even though there still exist some excitement on some level.. in some way I feel that part of my attention on the breath and my will which helps me generate these sensations.

I feel like I need some clarifications though..

Let's say the pleasurable sensations slowly fade away.. would it be a better approach to return to the breath or keep following these sensations for them to grow back and continue from there?

What kind of sustained attention does it require to stay in the 2nd jhana for a long long time and attain the 3th Jhana?

Learning when to remain attentive to the charisms, verses returning to the cognitive meditation object takes some art.  You will just have to explore what works for you.  However, I just stick with the charisms as long as they remain.  If the charisms subside then I use the still mind as my meditation object.  I only return to the cognitive meditation object when the mind reasserts itself.  There is a video from last summer's retreat in which Michael Hawkins talked about this.

"And furthermore, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture, so that there is nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture.

I guess in the 3th Jhana the pleasurable sensations (piti and sukha and whatever fireworks) physical and emotional feelings disappear completely?
How can I be sure that I am in the 3th Jhana and didn't just lose the sensations of the 2nd Jhana because of lost of attention? I am not sure that I know what it feels like to attain Equanimity..

No, the charisms get more and more profound as we go deeper into the religious experience.  The sutta quote does not seem like my work, but the translation of someone who has never experienced jhana.

If that's really the case, via what did you determinate back then I entered the 3th or 4th jhana?

I do not recall now.  I would have to read through this tread again, and I have a lot of work to do today to prepare for going into retreat with Stu this Monday. However, the characteristics of the 3rd jhana are the arsing of equanimity, and the charisms.

If it takes about 30 minutes to enter from the 2nd jhana to the 3th Jhana, does that mean one will experience pleasurable sensations the whole 30 minutes until reaching the 3th Jhana?

Not really, the 2nd jhana is all about the stilling of the mind.  The charisms generally arise in the 3rd jhana.

In today's practice session 9/18/2013:

Session 2:

It took for the glowing warm sensation a very long time to build up and even when it did it just stopped, it was weak and faded away almost completely.. but maybe this might be the first time that I felt a feeling of tranquillity and my body and breath felt "light" for at least 5-10 minutes after sensations faded away and there might have been a subtle feeling of buzzing remaining in the body.. however I am sure there are levels of tranquility and there might be much much much more deeper levels from what I have felt today.. it was hard for me to choose what to stay with.. the tranquility as an object which means just resting in that or continuing with the breath as an object.. I tried both ways and the breathing felt very light and noticed that my mind is quite still even though the mental chattery sometimes is jumpy but thoughts and images were almost or totally absent.

For the first 3 decades of my meditation practice I just practiced until the charisms subsided.  Then in 2000 I started pushing myself to make sure I sat for at least an hour.  I found then that if I just sat through the lull that can come in the middle of a meditation session, then often I would get the jack-pot and ride the rocket ship to the center of the galaxy.  So, learn to stick with your meditation sessions, regardless of the rising and falling of the charisms.

Session 2:

Same like before but tranquility was present longer and also after the session for a while. body felt quite light. my mind was pretty sharp and alert.
When I placed my attention on the breath it felt like instant 1 pointed concentration from just placing my mind on it so it felt really effortless smooth and light

Session 3:

It took a while for a nice sensation to pop up and build up a little bit and when it did it stopped and faded slowly away.. however I don't really feel excited anymore in those states, I just give myself in to it yet I have no idea why there is such a lack of piti today.

Kindly,
Ichigo

As we gain time in the charisms the excitement of the experience wanes, which is a good thing, because we are developing equanimity, which is needed to go deeper into the meditation experience.

Session Report 9/19/2013:

Worst day ever! in the first 3 sessions not even once did pleasurable feelings arise and my concentration wasn't any worse then previous sessions.. thoughts hardly bothered me.. in fact I felt the concentration and alertness on the object was very high, so it looks to me strange that meditating 45-60 minutes wouldn't bring anything up..

A still mind is enough success.  One does not have to have fireworks every time one meditates.  After all, Zen Buddhism makes a huge deal over just the stilling of the mind.  So, if you can consistently still your mind in meditation, then you are the same as a Zen master.  When you can consistently get beyond that to deeper levels of the meditation experience then you are beyond a Zen master.

[Ichigo]

I am trying different approaches to place my attention on different spots as sometimes the previous spot isn't comfortable anymore or my mind loses sense of location to fix my mind there.

Yesterday I was following the breathing in the throat and felt the urge to explode into bliss.

For some reason there is something pleasant in following the breath in the throat.. I am not sure why, maybe because the throat chakra is located there.