Greetings to all fellow contemplatives

[Michel]

Greetings to all fellow contemplatives,

I'd like to introduce myself. My name is Michel. I'm 61-years-old. I live in Ottawa, Canada and I live alone on a small disability pension. This is good, since I can devote myself 24/7 to practicing the Noble Eightfold Path and meditation, which I have been doing for just over a year now. So I'm a beginner and I'm all ears. I have absolutely no interest in doing anything else.

Most of the details of my life are of little interest, just the same samsara as everyone else. But what really defines me was my main interest and passion for both the classical and steel string guitar.  For over the last fifty years I put in a lot of discipline, time and effort into music. My interest in music has completely subsided. I now put all my energies into practicing the path.

I am currently practicing anapanasati meditation. I meditate on average three hours per day, forty-five  minutes per session. In the last year, I have not missed a single day. I have not yet been able to still the mind. Perhaps with your help one day this will happen. Will be posting in detail about my meditation experiences later.

I'm glad to have come across this site. What I like about Jhananda's approach is the scientific documentation of the religious experience.  This is really something considering the diversity of opinions on the matter. I also think it would be good to have a different take on the Pali suttas.

Kindest regards,
Michel

[Alexander]

Welcome to the forum Michel =)

As you've probably figured out by now, our thesis is that when we spend long periods of time in meditation (prior to the stilling of the mind) it has the effect of bringing to the surface a large variety of uncomfortable, unhappy or contradictory memories, which have, until that time, existed in the unconscious mind. As these memories, pains, and incongruities get integrated into our conscious mind, we experience a large amount of turmoil, and this painful period is what is called the first "dark night of the soul."

However, after this experience is gone through, one gains the ability to access the 1st and 2nd jhanas (joy and relative silence), which become established both in meditation sessions, and, also, come to remain with you throughout the day.

Important, also, in developing these first two jhanas is the cultivation of vitarka (applied attention) and vicara (sustained attention).

Finally, if we become very adept as contemplatives, having remained with the still mind (the 2nd jhana) at many hours of the day, this can have the effect of provoking a -second- "dark night of the soul." In this experience, we again are transformed in a dramatic way, and come to reap the charisms, the later jhanas, and many other strange phenomena.

[Michel]

Hello aglorincz,

Thank you for your thoughtful comments. I've read some of your very interesting posts on this forum, and I look forward to future discussions with you.

Yes I'm familiar with whether it's "applied and sustained attention" verses the "applied and sustained thought" controversy.

Of course, I know nothing from direct experience of the "dark night of the soul". I have read what Jeffrey Brooks and Michael Hawkins and others have said about it. That's all. But what really strikes me is that  I've never read or heard anybody from the Theravada crowd acknowledge that it even exists. I've read all of their books: Thanissaro, Brahm, Sujato, Chah, Bodhi, Khema, Sona,Vimalaramsi, etc. Not a single word. What I've come to the conclusion, from reading all of them, is that they all disagree, to various degrees, on interpretations of the suttas and meditation methods, and that some think the jhana states are sublime, heavenly states with no unpleasant side effects such as the dark night of the soul, and no pleasant side effects such as the charisms.

So who are the charlatans? I hope to find out one day.

I  want to thoroughly investigate Jhananda's approach. I take him seriously. His approach seems to make sense. But only through my own direct experience will I be able to tell if his approach works. So I'm going to take it one step at a time.

There's no turning back for me. I'm willing to come face to face with my demons.

Here's a rather romantic interpretation of the dark night of the soul I got from the Web:

"The dark night of the soul is an overall beautiful experience where a person’s ego/false self is “dying” to their true Self which is LOVE or in other words one is realizing the ego self is false and never really existed."

Cute isn't it?

[Jhanananda]

Welcome, Michel, I am glad to see that you have posted your first message and you are now participating in this small but intense community of contemplatives.  It is also good that you have read widely on the dhamma and found that there are many perspectives on it, and that some, or possibly most, might be incorrect; and that you are reserving judgement until you test it with your own experience, which, to me, is what the dhamma should be all about.

On the difficult stages of the dark night of the soul, not every one goes through the deep emotional trauma to get to the peace of mind, but some do, and, I believe, a meditation teacher who does not prepare people for possible difficulties is irresponsible.  So, you may have an easy time of it.  It is good that you are practicing diligently.  I might just add that you might want to work on living in the moment, which helps still the mind.

Also, when you engage in mediation practice an important part of that practice is learning to relax deeply, and being responsive to the arising of subtle characteristics of deeper levels of meditation.  Some of those subtle characteristics of deeper levels of meditation are just relaxation, others are observing the arising of pleasant feelings, as our other new member, Ichigo, has expressed that he does.

[Michel]

Thank for your comments and advice, Jhanananda. It is so good to hear the words of a wise mystic.

As you suggest here, one should  learn to be, as you put it, "living in the moment".  If I understand correctly, this means  being self-aware of the body, feelings, emotions and thoughts as they happen in the present. I guess another way of putting it is being self aware of one's own five aggregates. Is this the idea?

I might add that when I do this I feel very relaxed.

I'm curious, and I'm sure that I'm not the only one, based on your case histories, etc., what is the ratio of those who go through the dark night of the soul experience vs. those who have "an easy time of it"?

[Jhanananda]

Thank for your comments and advice, Jhanananda. It is so good to hear the words of a wise mystic.

As you suggest here, one should  learn to be, as you put it, "living in the moment".  If I understand correctly, this means  being self-aware of the body, feelings, emotions and thoughts as they happen in the present. I guess another way of putting it is being self aware of one's own five aggregates. Is this the idea?

Being self-aware, or aware of the 5 aggregates is most certainly a requirement to living in the moment; but I meant not dwelling upon the past or the future, but living in the "now" as Tolle uses that term of being in the present or living in the moment.

I might add that when I do this I feel very relaxed.

Yes, being in the "now," or being in the present, or living in the moment is very relaxing.

I'm curious, and I'm sure that I'm not the only one, based on your case histories, etc., what is the ratio of those who go through the dark night of the soul experience vs. those who have "an easy time of it"?

About 99% go through at least one spiritual crisis on their way to the religious experience.  Some people, like myself, have a spiritual crisis for every stage of the religious experience; and some people seem to just get there with little effort.

[Michel]

About 99% go through at least one spiritual crisis on their way to the religious experience.  Some people, like myself, have a spiritual crisis for every stage of the religious experience; and some people seem to just get there with little effort.

At what stages do these 99% experience a spiritual crisis?

[pj]

I hit such a crisis recently, but thankfully it only lasted for two weeks.  During those weeks I felt dull and heavy, in public I often had to prevent myself from crying (I didnt want others to worry), and I had intense headaches.  This occurred to me when I firmly decided that buddhism was what I wanted to live my life for (after experiencing the first jhana- by Jhananda's definition), and realized the full implications of that: 1.My current schooling seemed pointless 2. Playing piano was a subtle form of suffering and 3. The realization that a wife and children would be more of a hindrance to my happiness than a gain.  Essentially, it was if two parts of me were fighting for dominanace, and the dhamma won.

However, while this did suck, I have experienced the third jhana -once again by Jhananda's definition- (after a very long day of meditation) once, and have not encountered another crisis.  In all honesty, I feel and think that I do not have any others lying in wait.

What seemed to really push me quickly through this was metta meditation.

Also, in the above when I say by Jhananda's definition I mean no disrespect.  I would simply like to clarify that I am not talking about Ajahn Brahm's, or Thanisarro Bhikku's, or Jack Kornfield's... etc definition.  (Since they can be described very differently)

[Jhanananda]

At what stages do these 99% experience a spiritual crisis?

The spiritual crises

1) The first spiritual crisis is the adolescent rebellion, sometimes when people get through it, the adolescent rebellion takes us into the spiritual aspiration.  Some find the first jhana, whether through meditation practice, or religious ritual.  If the adolescent rebellion does not propel us into a spiritual/contemplative life, then there is always the 7 year itch, which is really the Saturn Return.  If that does not do it, then there is the mid-life crisis, and so on.

2) The second spiritual crisis occurs for some people who they take up a contemplative life and stumble upon the still mind.  This experience is often non-dual, which frightens some people.

3) After we become established in living in the moment, and stilling the mind, and we keep meditating, then we start becoming aware of the charisms, which require hypersensitivity.  For some this hypersensitivity sends them off into the wilderness, such as it did for me.  We simply cannot be around all of the negativity that everyone caries around with them buried under a facade of calm and success.

4) The next spiritual crisis can occur when we become established in the 3rd stage of the religious experience (3rd jhana).  Here we have the charisms full on 24/7.  This can creep some people out.  The so-called kundalini crisis is all about this.

I will stop here, because it gets too abstract, but anyone who bumps into spiritual crises from meditating at greater depths is certainly welcome to post an inquiry on that subject.

For anyone who is interested we do have a whole section on this forum on the subject of the spiritual crisis.

[Alexander]

To quote Jhananda from another post he did today:

One of the most profound meditation practices I did about 10 years ago was to pray for death.  I would lie down every night and say, "I am ready, please take me."  I had profound religious experiences, OOBEs, other worlds, planes of exists, etc.  But, I was always disappointed to find myself back on this planet the next morning.  Anyway, real depth in meditation requires that level of letting go, and even more.

Jhananda is obviously much farther down the road than I am, but this is really what we're discussing here requires.

Your whole world must come crashing down. The cites you've built have to be set on fire. Your house which you've lived in your whole life - like in the stories of Gilgamesh and Noah - must be torn down so you have the material with which you can build the 'ark' (that is, if you'd like to survive the 'flood').

It may not be accessible to some people, but I tried to explain why I think the crises are essential in this post here:

http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php?topic=384.0

Basically, I would argue that the different crises facilitate the construction of a 'spiritual body.' (Obviously, for a modern person who does not believe in the non-material, this is a hard sell.) But, the way I understand it, is this spiritual body is still made up out of 'matter.' But, the 'matter' of this body is the same 'matter' that constitutes the superior worlds. So to us, we cannot see it/feel it/experience it, or fathom the 'matter' which constitutes it.

Again I am not saying this conclusively but I would argue that this body can have 3 levels of refinement, which incidentally correspond with the 3 highest noble persons:

refinement 1 (jhana 1) - possessed by the once-returner - someone who has gone through the first dark night - after death is reincarnated? with some continuity of former consciousness (unlike laypersons)

refinement 2 (jhana 2) - possessed by the non-returner - after death is reborn in superior worlds

refinement 3 (jhanas 3+) - possessed by the arahant - someone who has gone through the second dark night - after death reborn ?? a completely unintelligible state of being/mahasamadhi

[stugandolf]

I am sure that I am not the only one who has experienced clearly all the jhanas who bounces around them and sometimes out of them all together... Comments?  Stu P.S. most of the time I am in the jhanas.

[Michel]

Well it's a wrap for me. Thanks for posting comments, all of you. 

Hello to Stu. I kind of know you from the YouTube retreats. Looking forward to your future posts.

[stugandolf]

In as much as I came from the Zen tradition,  the Ox Herding, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Bulls -  wikipedia  must be read with a grain of salt. The  story is that a 10 can bounce back to a 1 or none - I see a parallel with the jhanas...  Stu

[Jhanananda]

In as much as I came from the Zen tradition,  the Ox Herding, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Bulls -  wikipedia  must be read with a grain of salt. The  story is that a 10 can bounce back to a 1 or none - I see a parallel with the jhanas...  Stu

Thank-you Stu. I too spent some time in Zen; however, I found little evidence within Zen that they ever understood the 8 stages of samadhi, but surely they made it to the 2nd stage of jhana, because it is no-mind, and Zen literature is full of references to no-mind.  Here is the wiki on it, I have made comments within[]

The Ten Bulls
Ten Bulls (by Tokuriki Tomikichiro, 1902–99).

The pictures, poems and short pieces of prose tell how the student ventures into the wilderness in his search for "the Bull" (or "Ox"; a common metaphor for enlightenment, or the true self, or simply a regular human being), and how his efforts prove fruitless at first. Undeterred, he keeps searching and eventually finds footprints on a riverbank. When he sees the bull for the first time he is amazed by the splendour of its features ('empty and marvellous' is a well known phrase used to describe the perception of Buddha nature). However, the student has not tamed the bull, and must work hard to bring it under control. Eventually he reaches the highest Enlightenment, returns to the world and 'everyone I look upon becomes enlightened'.

Common titles of the pictures in English, and common themes of the prose, include:

1)      In Search of the Bull (aimless searching, only the sound of cicadas) [seeking]
2)      Discovery of the Footprints (a path to follow) [finding the first jhana]
3)      Perceiving the Bull (but only its rear, not its head) [occasional glimpses of the 2nd jhana]
4)      Catching the Bull (a great struggle, the bull repeatedly escapes, discipline required) [learning how to establish the 2nd jhana take great commitment, struggle and discipline]
5)      Taming the Bull (less straying, less discipline, bull becomes gentle and obedient) [learning to relax, surrender, let go one learns to master the 2nd jhana]
6)      Riding the Bull Home (great joy) [too soon the seeker returns home, thinking that he has found the ultimate enlightenment when all he found was the 2nd jhana]
7)      The Bull Transcended (once home, the bull is forgotten, discipline's whip is idle; stillness) [thinking he has the ultimate enlightenment when all he found was the 2nd jhana, he becomes lazy]
      Both Bull and Self Transcended (all forgotten and empty) [the emptiness of the 2nd jhana leds to loss of volition. Not knowing there is more, he remains there]
9)      Reaching the Source (unconcerned with or without; the sound of cicadas) [Seasons and years go by with no more progress]
10)    Return to Society (crowded marketplace; spreading enlightenment by mingling with humankind) [Eventually he gets old and fat and people start to show him some respect, which is all Zen ever got]