Enriching the Religious Experience

[Michel]

Jhananda, you responded to 7 questions "regarding the mysteries of the Universe" asked  by xebiche in a post show below.

In order to enrich my meditations I am trying to fabricate in my mind the idea that I'm communing with the sacred, the holy and the sublime while I'm in meditation. I find in your seven answers a framework model for doing this. I also viewed your video "enriching the religious experience", although it introduces the basic idea well, it doesn't seem to go into much depth on how to do this. See here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lrotmQkPvI

I want my meditations to be saturated with a feeling that I'm communing with the sacred, that I'm in the presence of the sublime. I've tried this in my most recent meditations, and it seems to work a bit, but needs lots of refining. Any suggestions?  Can you expand on your 7 answers about the nature of the spiritual domain? It would be good to have the view of a mystic about the experience of communing with the divine. Can you attempt to describe this ineffable experience perhaps by writing a poem about it?

xebiche:
Re: Science Verses Religion
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2012, 08:34:19 PM »

The design of religion is to answer the tough questions regarding the mysteries of the Universe:

Is there a Creator?
What characteristics does he/she embody?
What happens when we die?
Is there and afterlife?
What does it mean to be human?
Are we alone in the Universe?
Does God love us?

Jhananda:
Re: Science Verses Religion
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2012, 08:34:19 PM »

1) No, there is no creator, nor is there a "big bang," which is just creation "science" masquerading as science.
2) There is a God, but god, is not a he, or she, or it, or entity.  God is the sum total of the spiritual dimension, which pervades the physical universe, but does not direct, control or create, or modify or destroy it.
3) When we die we travel out of body into the spiritual dimension, which is as infinite as the physical universe is infinite.
4) Yes, there is an "after life".  It is the spiritual dimension.
5) Humans are an animal with certain characteristics, not unlike other animals.  We are spirit beings housed in a human body.
6) No, we are not alone in the universe.  Life pervades the physical universe and will arise wherever the conditions for life arise long enough for life to arise there.  And, life will evolve to fill every ecological niche as long as the conditions for life persist long enough, and are diverse enough to form niches.
7) God is not a being, so asking whether a being loves us is not relevant; however, the beings in the spiritual dimension are love itself, and communicate constantly with each other on a "carrier wave" of love.  We are essentially love itself, but most of us do not know it, or act like it.

[Jhanananda]

Hello Michel, here is where we move out of Buddhism and into a theistic framework, such as Christianity or Hinduism. All of the charisms (jhana-nimitta) that this entire forum is about, is the religious experience, and the religious experience is the direct experience of the sacred. 

Some call the sacred, god, YHWH, Shekinah, Shakti, Brahma, Allah, and so many other names. 

I attempted to describe the religious experience in poetry.  It is the last chapter or two in my book Stone Worn to Sand.

What I mean by Enriching the Religious Experience is treating all of the odd non-physical phenomena of the religious experience, as if one is in the presence of god when one is having a religious experience.  It is simply cultivating an attitude of reverence for the religious experience.  Otherwise it is just a collection of odd sensations.  I hope this helps.

[Alexander]

Jhananda:
Re: Science Verses Religion
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2012, 08:34:19 PM »

1) No, there is no creator, nor is there a "big bang," which is just creation "science" masquerading as science.
2) There is a God, but god, is not a he, or she, or it, or entity.  God is the sum total of the spiritual dimension, which pervades the physical universe, but does not direct, control or create, or modify or destroy it.
3) When we die we travel out of body into the spiritual dimension, which is as infinite as the physical universe is infinite.
4) Yes, there is an "after life".  It is the spiritual dimension.
5) Humans are an animal with certain characteristics, not unlike other animals.  We are spirit beings housed in a human body.
6) No, we are not alone in the universe.  Life pervades the physical universe and will arise wherever the conditions for life arise long enough for life to arise there.  And, life will evolve to fill every ecological niche as long as the conditions for life persist long enough, and are diverse enough to form niches.
7) God is not a being, so asking whether a being loves us is not relevant; however, the beings in the spiritual dimension are love itself, and communicate constantly with each other on a "carrier wave" of love.  We are essentially love itself, but most of us do not know it, or act like it.

Jhananda have you understood a lot of these topics? What do you make of:

-The Buddha says even devas/heavenly beings must fall and be reborn in lower worlds
-The spiritual world: does it have a beginning and an end (as in time) like our world does?

[pj]

From what I can tell from the suttas, when the body dies, if the mind continues grasping then it is reborn in a new body.  That is, it enters the "spiritual realm" briefly, and then the force of its craving will cause it to seek a new body whether it be a formless body as with devas, or a material body as with humans.  Remaining in the "spiritual realm" permanently requires that one be an arahant. 
Although, I too am curious what Jhananda's ideas are.

[Michel]

Jhananda:

I attempted to describe the religious experience in poetry.  It is the last chapter or two in my book Stone Worn to Sand.

Last week I read your book of poems, "Stone Worn to Sand". Thank-you for sharing these deeply personal experiences.  I liked the poems very much. I got to know you better through them. I could relate to the early poems, they were of a mundane nature. I believe the later poems are of your supramundane experiences realized through the samadhi states, and for me, were more difficult to relate to. I'll need to read them many times, as I develop my own religious experiences, before I can fully appreciate them.

This is the one I like the best:

La Corpa Dia
(My Body) for Rumi   

At my birth, time and space began.
When I choose to cease my existence, time and space will end.
Space is the extent of my body.
Time is the span of my life.     

I am everything, Space, Time, Light and Gravity.
Nothing has come into existence except through me.
There is nothing that is not me.   
I am all that is, and all that will ever be.   

Beyond the death of this body I alone exist.   

The cells of my body
are galactic clusters made up of sub-atomic solar systems.   
The expansion of galaxies is like the blossoming of flowers,
and supernova are like shooting stars.
To me, the Human life span is as brief as the sub-atomic particle’s. 

I am consciousness.
There is nothing in my body I am not conscious of.
My consciousness pervades even to the smallest particle.   

I am the silent ocean.
I am darkness waiting
endlessly to embrace you wholly. 

Bottomless and with no shore.
In me, you will have no foothold, and no place to grasp.
I will embrace you totally.   

If you struggle against me
you will only become exhausted.
I will hold you up,
and when you reach for the density of Earth
I will not hold you back.   

I am yielding.
When you come out of me
I will fall away, brooding your inevitable
return.   

I am the pull of emptiness.

Brooks, Jeffrey (2013-01-28). a Stone Worn to Sand, Thirty years of contemplative and mystical poetry (Kindle Locations 1918-1932). Great Western Vehicle. Kindle Edition. 

[Jhanananda]

Hello again aglorincz, it is good to hear from you again.  I was starting to miss dialoging with you.

Jhananda have you understood a lot of these topics?

If you are speaking of my responses up thread that you quote, yes, I do understand them, that is why I responded the way I did.

What do you make of:

-The Buddha says even devas/heavenly beings must fall and be reborn in lower worlds

Yes, of course.  Where do you think the mystics, and their students come from?

-The spiritual world: does it have a beginning and an end (as in time) like our world does?

The immaterial domains (spiritual world) is infinite, with no beginning and no end, just as the physical universe is infinite, with no beginning and no end.

The Big Bang theory is just Abrahamic religion masquerading as science.

From what I can tell from the suttas, when the body dies, if the mind continues grasping then it is reborn in a new body.  That is, it enters the "spiritual realm" briefly, and then the force of its craving will cause it to seek a new body whether it be a formless body as with devas, or a material body as with humans.  Remaining in the "spiritual realm" permanently requires that one be an arahant. 
Although, I too am curious what Jhananda's ideas are.

Yes, I agree, PJ; however, the mystics are most often arahants before they come back.  They come back to the material plane to help the beings here progress toward liberation and enlightenment.  That is the idea of the avatar.

Last week I read your book of poems, "Stone Worn to Sand". Thank-you for sharing these deeply personal experiences.  I liked the poems very much. I got to know you better through them. I could relate to the early poems, they were of a mundane nature. I believe the later poems are of your supramundane experiences realized through the samadhi states, and for me, were more difficult to relate to. I'll need to read them many times, as I develop my own religious experiences, before I can fully appreciate them.

This is the one I like the best:

La Corpa Dia
(My Body) for Rumi   

I am honored, Michel, that you would read my poetry.  Yes, La Corpa Dia, is one of my favorite poems.  The first half of the book is my dark night of the soul, so I can see how it might be difficult to read.  The poem is one of my attempts to described the 8th stage of the religious experience (Nevasannanasannnayatana).  The poem has numerous tropes in it that repeat throughout the book from beginning to end.  And the book, Stone Worn to Sand, is meant to be a poetic description of the path to liberation and enlightenment.

[Michel]

Quote from: pj on October 12, 2013, 06:50:01 AM

From what I can tell from the suttas, when the body dies, if the mind continues grasping then it is reborn in a new body.  That is, it enters the "spiritual realm" briefly, and then the force of its craving will cause it to seek a new body whether it be a formless body as with devas, or a material body as with humans.  Remaining in the "spiritual realm" permanently requires that one be an arahant. 
Although, I too am curious what Jhananda's ideas are.

Jananada:
Yes, I agree, PJ; however, the mystics are most often arahants before they come back.  They come back to the material plane to help the beings here progress toward liberation and enlightenment.   That is the idea of the avatar.

This is interesting. I thought arahants after they die could only be reborn in Nibbana; it is impossible for them to take rebirth in any other realm. Would then the Buddha be able to take on human form if he wished? This sounds like Mahayana Buddhism. The Buddha said, I believe, that after he died he would not be seen by gods and men.

I must confess I haven't yet read the entire Pali Canon from cover to cover. But it's on my do list.

[Jhanananda]

This is interesting. I thought arahants after they die could only be reborn in Nibbana; it is impossible for them to take rebirth in any other realm. Would then the Buddha be able to take on human form if he wished? This sounds like Mahayana Buddhism. The Buddha said, I believe, that after he died he would not be seen by gods and men.

I must confess I haven't yet read the entire Pali Canon from cover to cover. But it's on my do list.

When you are a Buddha, then you have no limits.  On the other hand, the aggregates that were associated with Siddhartha Gautama are gone.  That does not mean that the awareness domain that animated the aggregates that were associated with Siddhartha Gautama is gone; nor that it might not come back to help other.  That  awareness domain would just not be Siddhartha Gautama any more.

[Jhanon]

Firstly, I want to express my sincere gratitude to Michel for all the excellent questions he asks, and his relentlessness in getting a satisfactory answer. Also, thanks to Jhananda for offering answers to those of us who have searched for so long. And I would also like to apologize for how many questions I have. It took me a long time to format and compose this entire response. However, these are all very important questions to me.

1) No, there is no creator, nor is there a "big bang," which is just creation "science" masquerading as science.

Finally, someone has said it. Why do humans insist on shrinking down reality? Egoic fear?

2) There is a God, but god, is not a he, or she, or it, or entity.  God is the sum total of the spiritual dimension, which pervades the physical universe, but does not direct, control or create, or modify or destroy it.

I thought God was every"thing". I am surprised to hear you say that God is the sum total of the spiritual dimension, and not also the physical dimension--although I do see you say God "pervades the physical universe". So what IS the physical dimension?

3) When we die we travel out of body into the spiritual dimension, which is as infinite as the physical universe is infinite.
4) Yes, there is an "after life".  It is the spiritual dimension.
5) Humans are an animal with certain characteristics, not unlike other animals.  We are spirit beings housed in a human body.
6) No, we are not alone in the universe.  Life pervades the physical universe and will arise wherever the conditions for life arise long enough for life to arise there.  And, life will evolve to fill every ecological niche as long as the conditions for life persist long enough, and are diverse enough to form niches.

Have you ever visited other physical realm planets that were inhabited? What I mean is an "alien" that could hypothetically travel to Earth and ordinary humans would be able to see them.

7) God is not a being, so asking whether a being loves us is not relevant; however, the beings in the spiritual dimension are love itself, and communicate constantly with each other on a "carrier wave" of love.  We are essentially love itself, but most of us do not know it, or act like it.

It will take more experience and time for me to actualize and fully understand this last point.

What I mean by Enriching the Religious Experience is treating all of the odd non-physical phenomena of the religious experience, as if one is in the presence of god when one is having a religious experience.  It is simply cultivating an attitude of reverence for the religious experience.  Otherwise it is just a collection of odd sensations.  I hope this helps.

Thank you for posting this. I have recently forgotten to do this. You advised I do so when I complained of not experiencing enough joy/awe/satisfaction in samadhi. It is incredibly hard for me to not be objective in samadhi. I think objectivity has become a sort of intellectual shield for me. A couple years ago, after my first intense ecstatic bliss kundalini rush, I did have a stint of viewing charismatic phenomena as divine.

La Corpa Dia
(My Body) for Rumi   

At my birth, time and space began.
When I choose to cease my existence, time and space will end.
Space is the extent of my body.
Time is the span of my life.     

I am everything, Space, Time, Light and Gravity.
Nothing has come into existence except through me.
There is nothing that is not me.   
I am all that is, and all that will ever be.   

Beyond the death of this body I alone exist.   

The cells of my body
are galactic clusters made up of sub-atomic solar systems.   
The expansion of galaxies is like the blossoming of flowers,
and supernova are like shooting stars.
To me, the Human life span is as brief as the sub-atomic particle’s. 

I am consciousness.
There is nothing in my body I am not conscious of.
My consciousness pervades even to the smallest particle.   

I am the silent ocean.
I am darkness waiting
endlessly to embrace you wholly. 

Bottomless and with no shore.
In me, you will have no foothold, and no place to grasp.
I will embrace you totally.   

If you struggle against me
you will only become exhausted.
I will hold you up,
and when you reach for the density of Earth
I will not hold you back.   

I am yielding.
When you come out of me
I will fall away, brooding your inevitable
return.   

I am the pull of emptiness.

Wow. This is one of those things one immediately slows down reading when come across. Perhaps I am jumping to conclusions, but my intuition tells me that you KNOW this from direct experience. Just the thought of such an experience is so inspiring. Thank you, Michel, for sharing this. And thank you, Jhananda, for writing it. I intend to pick up your book when I next have some money.

I do have one question about your poem. You say "When I choose to cease my existence, time and space will end." Do you mean, regardless of how vast amount of time it might be, that even God will at some point end?

-The Buddha says even devas/heavenly beings must fall and be reborn in lower worlds

Yes, of course.  Where do you think the mystics, and their students come from?

Do you mean that all mystics first spend time living in heavenly realms? Could this be the longing for "Home" I so often feel? If one's previous life was as a heavenly being, perhaps one of the higher heavens, it seems logical that upon return to the human realm a severe sense of dissatisfaction could occur, thus propelling the mystic.

From what I can tell from the suttas, when the body dies, if the mind continues grasping then it is reborn in a new body.  That is, it enters the "spiritual realm" briefly, and then the force of its craving will cause it to seek a new body whether it be a formless body as with devas, or a material body as with humans.  Remaining in the "spiritual realm" permanently requires that one be an arahant. 
Although, I too am curious what Jhananda's ideas are.

Yes, I agree, PJ; however, the mystics are most often arahants before they come back.  They come back to the material plane to help the beings here progress toward liberation and enlightenment.  That is the idea of the avatar.

If this is so, does that mean the awareness which inhabited the Buddha could be among us today?

Additionally, does a Buddha, upon returning to Earth, need to re-attain or re-awaken their Buddha-ship? I've not ever heard of a single Buddha that was re-born on Earth already enlightened.

And lastly, based on my understanding of what a Buddha is, it appears you qualify as one. Is that correct, Jhananda?

THANK YOU FOR SUCH AN EXCELLENT THREAD!

[Jhanananda]

Firstly, I want to express my sincere gratitude to Michel for all the excellent questions he asks, and his relentlessness in getting a satisfactory answer. Also, thanks to Jhananda for offering answers to those of us who have searched for so long. And I would also like to apologize for how many questions I have. It took me a long time to format and compose this entire response. However, these are all very important questions to me.

Questions are meant to be answered

1) No, there is no creator, nor is there a "big bang," which is just creation "science" masquerading as science.

Finally, someone has said it. Why do humans insist on shrinking down reality? Egoic fear?

I think the mind simply cannot grasp infinity, so it invents beginning and ends for it.

2) There is a God, but god, is not a he, or she, or it, or entity.  God is the sum total of the spiritual dimension, which pervades the physical universe, but does not direct, control or create, or modify or destroy it.

I thought God was every"thing". I am surprised to hear you say that God is the sum total of the spiritual dimension, and not also the physical dimension--although I do see you say God "pervades the physical universe". So what IS the physical dimension?

For the scientist, the universe measures and documents its variables, and calculating its properties.  For the philosopher it is coming up with an explanation for those variables and properties. For the poet it is reflecting upon the beauty of those variables and properties, and the artist reproduces it in media.  For the mystic there is no explaining it.  It just is. 

3) When we die we travel out of body into the spiritual dimension, which is as infinite as the physical universe is infinite.
4) Yes, there is an "after life".  It is the spiritual dimension.
5) Humans are an animal with certain characteristics, not unlike other animals.  We are spirit beings housed in a human body.
6) No, we are not alone in the universe.  Life pervades the physical universe and will arise wherever the conditions for life arise long enough for life to arise there.  And, life will evolve to fill every ecological niche as long as the conditions for life persist long enough, and are diverse enough to form niches.

Have you ever visited other physical realm planets that were inhabited? What I mean is an "alien" that could hypothetically travel to Earth and ordinary humans would be able to see them.

While out-of-body I traveled to many alien worlds, some of them had space travel capability.  While I used to believe in space travel through deep space, I no longer do, because the distance are vast, and there are so many random bits of matter in between that the further and faster a space ship travels the more likely it is going to bump into a rock moving at relative velocities at 10s of thousands to hundred of thousands of miles per hour.  It simply would not take much of a rock at the velocity to break a hole in the hardest materials, and no vehicle could detect those rocks in sufficient time to make maneuvering around them meaningful.  Even a space ship moving at hundred of thousands of miles per hour would take lifetimes to complete the journey, so it would be easier and more efficient to traveling out-of-body to other star systems than to do so in a machine.

The fundamental Occum's Razor questions and answers for alien life are:
1) The fact that life exists here is sufficient proof that life exists elsewhere.
2) The fact that an "intelligent" life form on this planet developed space travel is proof "intelligent" life forms on other planet have developed space travel.
3) The only reasonable way for an "intelligent" life form to travel from one star system to another would be to travel through space time, such that one's physical mater ceases to exist in one space/time loci and reappear in another.  Doing so would require breaking most of the laws of the physical universe.
4) The reason why life arises wherever the conditions for life are supported is because micro-organisms must be preserved in stasis on comets, where they are protected from excess conditions until they arrive on another planet to reanimate and begin reproduction cycles, and evolve to fill all of the ecological niches.
5) The fundamental Occum's Razor question is: If "intelligent" alien life forms can travel from from one star system to another in a machine, then where are they?

7) God is not a being, so asking whether a being loves us is not relevant; however, the beings in the spiritual dimension are love itself, and communicate constantly with each other on a "carrier wave" of love.  We are essentially love itself, but most of us do not know it, or act like it.

It will take more experience and time for me to actualize and fully understand this last point.

It was 1974 when I had several religious experiences that revealed this to me, and I came from a family who never expressed love or appreciation for me, so I had no real world experience of love, until I experienced it in several religious experiences. So, you too can have this experience if you learn to meditate deeply.

What I mean by Enriching the Religious Experience is treating all of the odd non-physical phenomena of the religious experience, as if one is in the presence of god when one is having a religious experience.  It is simply cultivating an attitude of reverence for the religious experience.  Otherwise it is just a collection of odd sensations.  I hope this helps.

Thank you for posting this. I have recently forgotten to do this. You advised I do so when I complained of not experiencing enough joy/awe/satisfaction in samadhi. It is incredibly hard for me to not be objective in samadhi. I think objectivity has become a sort of intellectual shield for me. A couple years ago, after my first intense ecstatic bliss kundalini rush, I did have a stint of viewing charismatic phenomena as divine.

Well, see how it goes.

La Corpa Dia
(My Body) for Rumi   
by Jeffrey Brooks

At my birth, time and space began.
When I choose to cease my existence, time and space will end.
Space is the extent of my body.
Time is the span of my life.     

I am everything, Space, Time, Light and Gravity.
Nothing has come into existence except through me.
There is nothing that is not me.   
I am all that is, and all that will ever be.   

Beyond the death of this body I alone exist.   

The cells of my body
are galactic clusters made up of sub-atomic solar systems.   
The expansion of galaxies is like the blossoming of flowers,
and supernova are like shooting stars.
To me, the Human life span is as brief as the sub-atomic particle’s. 

I am consciousness.
There is nothing in my body I am not conscious of.
My consciousness pervades even to the smallest particle.   

I am the silent ocean.
I am darkness waiting
endlessly to embrace you wholly. 

Bottomless and with no shore.
In me, you will have no foothold, and no place to grasp.
I will embrace you totally.   

If you struggle against me
you will only become exhausted.
I will hold you up,
and when you reach for the density of Earth
I will not hold you back.   

I am yielding.
When you come out of me
I will fall away, brooding your inevitable
return.   

I am the pull of emptiness.

Wow. This is one of those things one immediately slows down reading when come across. Perhaps I am jumping to conclusions, but my intuition tells me that you KNOW this from direct experience. Just the thought of such an experience is so inspiring. Thank you, Michel, for sharing this. And thank you, Jhananda, for writing it. I intend to pick up your book when I next have some money.

Yes, I know it from personal experience.  Mystics often resort to poetry to describe their religious experiences, because normal modes of communication are grossly inadequate to do so.

I do have one question about your poem. You say "When I choose to cease my existence, time and space will end." Do you mean, regardless of how vast amount of time it might be, that even God will at some point end?

At the time I confused that fact the the entire physical universe is pervade by the spiritual dimension, as proof that there was a causal relationship from one to the other.  I no longer subscribe to that belief system, but it makes good poetry.

-The Buddha says even devas/heavenly beings must fall and be reborn in lower worlds

Yes, of course.  Where do you think the mystics, and their students come from?

Do you mean that all mystics first spend time living in heavenly realms? Could this be the longing for "Home" I so often feel? If one's previous life was as a heavenly being, perhaps one of the higher heavens, it seems logical that upon return to the human realm a severe sense of dissatisfaction could occur, thus propelling the mystic.

There is no "first."  When one becomes a mystic, then one ascends to heavenly realms upon death, and often resides in them, while out-of-body.  Sure, our true home is the heavenly realms, because we are spirit residing in a beast's body.  And, the heavenly realms are love itself. Yes, the mystic does not find fulfillment in material existence, but only finds it in the heavenly realms.

From what I can tell from the suttas, when the body dies, if the mind continues grasping then it is reborn in a new body.  That is, it enters the "spiritual realm" briefly, and then the force of its craving will cause it to seek a new body whether it be a formless body as with devas, or a material body as with humans.  Remaining in the "spiritual realm" permanently requires that one be an arahant. 
Although, I too am curious what Jhananda's ideas are.

Yes, I agree, PJ; however, the mystics are most often arahants before they come back.  They come back to the material plane to help the beings here progress toward liberation and enlightenment.  That is the idea of the avatar.

If this is so, does that mean the awareness which inhabited the Buddha could be among us today?

While out-of-body I had many teaching sessions with past mystics, such as Siddhartha Gautama, Jesus, Teresa of Avila, and many more who never entered the historic record.  If mystics exist today, then one of them might be the awareness domain that was once called "Siddhartha Gautama," or "Jesus," or "Teresa of Avila," ad infinitum.

Additionally, does a Buddha, upon returning to Earth, need to re-attain or re-awaken their Buddha-ship? I've not ever heard of a single Buddha that was re-born on Earth already enlightened.

All those who are born must go through the same process to become enlightened; therefore, there was never anyone who was "born enlightened."

And lastly, based on my understanding of what a Buddha is, it appears you qualify as one. Is that correct, Jhananda?

Claiming to be a Buddha, or an avatar, or a Christ only leads to further marginalization of a mystic in any culture.  Just apply the method (magga) and interpretation (dhamma) and see what it does for you.  If you find this method and interpretation works to bring you to bliss, joy, ecstasy and fulfillment (phala), then it is sufficient proof.

THANK YOU FOR SUCH AN EXCELLENT THREAD!

You are welcome.

[Jhanon]

While out-of-body I traveled to many alien worlds, some of them had space travel capability.  While I used to believe in space travel through deep space, I no longer do, because the distance are vast, and there are so many random bits of matter in between that the further and faster a space ship travels the more likely it is going to bump into a rock moving at relative velocities at 10s of thousands to hundred of thousands of miles per hour.  It simply would not take much of a rock at the velocity to break a hole in the hardest materials, and no vehicle could detect those rocks in sufficient time to make maneuvering around them meaningful.  Even a space ship moving at hundred of thousands of miles per hour would take lifetimes to complete the journey, so it would be easier and more efficient to traveling out-of-body to other star systems than to do so in a machine.

The fundamental Occum's Razor questions and answers for alien life are:
1) The fact that life exists here is sufficient proof that life exists elsewhere.
2) The fact that an "intelligent" life form on this planet developed space travel is proof "intelligent" life forms on other planet have developed space travel.
3) The only reasonable way for an "intelligent" life form to travel from one star system to another would be to travel through space time, such that one's physical mater ceases to exist in one space/time loci and reappear in another.  Doing so would require breaking most of the laws of the physical universe.
4) The reason why life arises wherever the conditions for life are supported is because micro-organisms must be preserved in stasis on comets, where they are protected from excess conditions until they arrive on another planet to reanimate and begin reproduction cycles, and evolve to fill all of the ecological niches.
5) The fundamental Occum's Razor question is: If "intelligent" alien life forms can travel from from one star system to another in a machine, then where are they?

Wow, it is really inspiring for me to see that you've experienced other physical dimension beings on other planets. I wasn't much concerned with humans interacting with them--I was just making sure to clarify the question. However, You make good points about space debris. The only way I could imagine physical space travel from one inhabited planet to another is with some kind of energy shield technology we don't have. That's of course not even taking into account how to travel at the speeds necessary.

This next question is again aimed at finding inspiration. Would it be possible for you to come back with information about planets or stars that scientists have not yet been able to discover due to lack of technology? Like some special physical feature of a planet that has not yet been discovered, but could if you were able to direct a scientist accordingly. Not that it would necessarily do any good, but I wonder if this could be used to hypothetically "prove" the existence of OOB travel.

7) God is not a being, so asking whether a being loves us is not relevant; however, the beings in the spiritual dimension are love itself, and communicate constantly with each other on a "carrier wave" of love.  We are essentially love itself, but most of us do not know it, or act like it.

It will take more experience and time for me to actualize and fully understand this last point.

It was 1974 when I had several religious experiences that revealed this to me, and I came from a family who never expressed love or appreciation for me, so I had no real world experience of love, until I experienced it in several religious experiences. So, you too can have this experience if you learn to meditate deeply.

[/quote]

Based on your childhood history you mentioned, I suspect you may have often returned to your physical body with tears in your eyes? Was this healing for you? It may sound odd, but I have a recurring fantasy of experiencing tears of relief and healing through samadhi experiences.

I do have one question about your poem. You say "When I choose to cease my existence, time and space will end." Do you mean, regardless of how vast amount of time it might be, that even God will at some point end?

At the time I confused that fact the the entire physical universe is pervade by the spiritual dimension, as proof that there was a causal relationship from one to the other.  I no longer subscribe to that belief system, but it makes good poetry.

Forgive me, but I do not understand your response. It sounds like you're answering "No, that's an outdated belief. But it makes good poetry."

Additionally, does a Buddha, upon returning to Earth, need to re-attain or re-awaken their Buddha-ship? I've not ever heard of a single Buddha that was re-born on Earth already enlightened.

All those who are born must go through the same process to become enlightened; therefore, there was never anyone who was "born enlightened."

Wow. So, that basically means even a Buddha can opt to re-live this hell!? WHY!? As much as I want to help others escape the tyranny of the physical realm, I find it hard to believe I could get myself to come back after ascending/enlightenment. I think I would need to bliss out for a looooooong time before even considering a return. But, then again, I know how easy it is to be noble when one is in a position of peace, ecstasy and happiness. Or what I will perhaps begin to call Ecsteaceness 

And lastly, based on my understanding of what a Buddha is, it appears you qualify as one. Is that correct, Jhananda?

Claiming to be a Buddha, or an avatar, or a Christ only leads to further marginalization of a mystic in any culture.  Just apply the method (magga) and interpretation (dhamma) and see what it does for you.  If you find this method and interpretation works to bring you to bliss, joy, ecstasy and fulfillment (phala), then it is sufficient proof.

[/quote]

I read ya loud and clear ^_<


Outstanding and inspiring responses, Jhananda. Thank you for taking the time to enlighten us.

[Jhanananda]

Wow, it is really inspiring for me to see that you've experienced other physical dimension beings on other planets. I wasn't much concerned with humans interacting with them--I was just making sure to clarify the question. However, You make good points about space debris. The only way I could imagine physical space travel from one inhabited planet to another is with some kind of energy shield technology we don't have. That's of course not even taking into account how to travel at the speeds necessary.

This next question is again aimed at finding inspiration. Would it be possible for you to come back with information about planets or stars that scientists have not yet been able to discover due to lack of technology? Like some special physical feature of a planet that has not yet been discovered, but could if you were able to direct a scientist accordingly. Not that it would necessarily do any good, but I wonder if this could be used to hypothetically "prove" the existence of OOB travel.

Theoretically it is indeed possible for a skilled mystic to travel out-of-body to distant worlds and report back on them to scientists here; however, a mystic who is sufficiently skilled is not likely to be sufficiently motivated to visit worlds, just for curiosity.  They are more likely to be utterly and completely compelled by the pursuit of bliss, joy and ecstasy instead.

There is also the problem that when one travels out-of-body one is no longer functioning on the physical plane, even though on the lower levels it looks like the physical universe.  Therefore, one is not going to acquire data that is going to be as reliable as space probe data.

I will use as an example a so-called UFO researcher in the 50s, George Adamski. He claimed to have traveled in space ships to other planets in this solar system, and described what he saw there.  When NASA and the Russian Space agency began to send probes to those worlds they found a different place than George Adamski described.  At first I discounted him as a fraud, but after I began to fly out-of-body I too found similar experiences on the planets of this solar system as George Adamski described, so I concluded that he may very well have been an out-of-body traveler who was using the UFO as a metaphor for describing his out-of-body experiences.  And, arguably, if he was traveling out-of-body, he may very well have thought that his experiences visiting other planets would be validated by future space programs.

Based on your childhood history you mentioned, I suspect you may have often returned to your physical body with tears in your eyes? Was this healing for you? It may sound odd, but I have a recurring fantasy of experiencing tears of relief and healing through samadhi experiences.

Weeping is common for mystics.  We weep for various reasons.  Possibly some of that weeping is due to expressing childhood traumas upon reentry into the body.  Part of what deep meditation did for me was to hone my memory, so that I had a clear recollection of my childhood, which was a complete horror.  Fortunately another aspect of deep meditation is the development of equanimity, so that one can have a lucid recollection of the horror of childhood, and not be driven mad by the recollection.

Forgive me, but I do not understand your response. It sounds like you're answering "No, that's an outdated belief. But it makes good poetry."

Correct.

Wow. So, that basically means even a Buddha can opt to re-live this hell!? WHY!? As much as I want to help others escape the tyranny of the physical realm, I find it hard to believe I could get myself to come back after ascending/enlightenment. I think I would need to bliss out for a looooooong time before even considering a return. But, then again, I know how easy it is to be noble when one is in a position of peace, ecstasy and happiness. Or what I will perhaps begin to call Ecsteaceness 

It is indeed hard to imagine why any Buddha/Christ/Messiah/Avatar would keep returning after being tortured and burned at the stake, lifetime after lifetime.

Outstanding and inspiring responses, Jhananda. Thank you for taking the time to enlighten us.

It is what I do.  I cannot think of anything else I would prefer to do.

[Jhanon]

Wow, it is really inspiring for me to see that you've experienced other physical dimension beings on other planets. I wasn't much concerned with humans interacting with them--I was just making sure to clarify the question. However, You make good points about space debris. The only way I could imagine physical space travel from one inhabited planet to another is with some kind of energy shield technology we don't have. That's of course not even taking into account how to travel at the speeds necessary.

This next question is again aimed at finding inspiration. Would it be possible for you to come back with information about planets or stars that scientists have not yet been able to discover due to lack of technology? Like some special physical feature of a planet that has not yet been discovered, but could if you were able to direct a scientist accordingly. Not that it would necessarily do any good, but I wonder if this could be used to hypothetically "prove" the existence of OOB travel.

Theoretically it is indeed possible for a skilled mystic to travel out-of-body to distant worlds and report back on them to scientists here; however, a mystic who is sufficiently skilled is not likely to be sufficiently motivated to visit worlds, just for curiosity.  They are more likely to be utterly and completely compelled by the pursuit of bliss, joy and ecstasy instead.

There is also the problem that when one travels out-of-body one is no longer functioning on the physical plane, even though on the lower levels it looks like the physical universe.  Therefore, one is not going to acquire data that is going to be as reliable as space probe data.

I will use as an example a so-called UFO researcher in the 50s, George Adamski. He claimed to have traveled in space ships to other planets in this solar system, and described what he saw there.  When NASA and the Russian Space agency began to send probes to those worlds they found a different place than George Adamski described.  At first I discounted him as a fraud, but after I began to fly out-of-body I too found similar experiences on the planets of this solar system as George Adamski described, so I concluded that he may very well have been an out-of-body traveler who was using the UFO as a metaphor for describing his out-of-body experiences.  And, arguably, if he was traveling out-of-body, he may very well have thought that his experiences visiting other planets would be validated by future space programs.

Wow, that is fascinating, and answers my question really well. I find it easy to believe that a mystic would be more inclined to pursue ecstasy and bliss rather than probe around the solar system.

Based on your childhood history you mentioned, I suspect you may have often returned to your physical body with tears in your eyes? Was this healing for you? It may sound odd, but I have a recurring fantasy of experiencing tears of relief and healing through samadhi experiences.

Weeping is common for mystics.  We weep for various reasons.  Possibly some of that weeping is due to expressing childhood traumas upon reentry into the body.  Part of what deep meditation did for me was to hone my memory, so that I had a clear recollection of my childhood, which was a complete horror.  Fortunately another aspect of deep meditation is the development of equanimity, so that one can have a lucid recollection of the horror of childhood, and not be driven mad by the recollection.

Oh, God. NO. I have to eventually recall my childhood? No. I really don't want that. I remember about 1 memory per year of my childhood, and I suspect it is for a good reason. Around what point does that occur? Or is it just a gradual thing--as I have been slowly experiencing memories I forgot about. I sure hope it isn't a hyper-real re-living of it.

I didn't mean to hijack this thread with these questions. They keep coming up.

[Jhanananda]

Oh, God. NO. I have to eventually recall my childhood? No. I really don't want that. I remember about 1 memory per year of my childhood, and I suspect it is for a good reason. Around what point does that occur? Or is it just a gradual thing--as I have been slowly experiencing memories I forgot about. I sure hope it isn't a hyper-real re-living of it.

I didn't mean to hijack this thread with these questions. They keep coming up.

I found recollection of childhood, as well as past lifetimes, was mostly a gradual process, which tended to occur after I developed the 3 jhanas, which means equanimity was well established by then.

[Jhanon]

Hello Michel, here is where we move out of Buddhism and into a theistic framework, such as Christianity or Hinduism. All of the charisms (jhana-nimitta) that this entire forum is about, is the religious experience, and the religious experience is the direct experience of the sacred. 

Some call the sacred, god, YHWH, Shekinah, Shakti, Brahma, Allah, and so many other names. 

I attempted to describe the religious experience in poetry.  It is the last chapter or two in my book Stone Worn to Sand.

What I mean by Enriching the Religious Experience is treating all of the odd non-physical phenomena of the religious experience, as if one is in the presence of god when one is having a religious experience.  It is simply cultivating an attitude of reverence for the religious experience.  Otherwise it is just a collection of odd sensations.  I hope this helps.

I have not yet gained mastery over enrichment. However, I have made some observations. In psychedlic commmunities, everyone knows "set and setting" (your mindset and your physical surroundings) are paramount factors in determining the nature of an experience. Likewise, it has been shown to be the same when it comes to meditative absorption.

This is evidenced by the many profound, deep and ecstatic experiences in meditative absorption I've had in THE PAST. Since I gained a deep intellectual understanding, and can access absorption whenever I want; I have gained a greater challenge. In the Psychedelic community they used to say "You have to have fun. Otherwise it won't go deep and it won't be fulfilling." Again, this is also true of meditative absorption.

In closing, one should try to enjoy, have fun with, revere, have gratitude for or otherwise hold sacred meditative absorption. I continue to have difficulty with this. I can have visions of angels, and use siddhi's, but it doesn't really matter, because I'm still waiting and looking for the excellent experiences I had in the beginning of my meditative absorption days. In other words, I'm not utilizing my "set and setting" adequately enough. Indeed, this "set and setting" matters throughout daily life as well. There's a lot of New Age hippie wisdom out there right now regarding this.

It is one of the greatest challenges for me at present. All of my life was positively impacted by this "set and setting" understanding, and I lived in a state of bliss and ecstasy for about 3 years. Then, it just fizzled away. Like the romance of a relationship. We're expecting everything else to do all the work to bring back the romance. But it is us, or me, that needs to.