Was the Buddha a "super-arahant"?

[Michel]

Hello Jhananda.

Was the Buddha a "super-arahant" compared to other arahants?

The suttas describe all kinds fantastic supernatural feats. Do arahants possess supernatural abilities?

Why is it that you always refer to the Buddha by his common name, Siddhartha Gautama?

[Jhanananda]

Hello Jhananda.

Was the Buddha a "super-arahant" compared to other arahants?

This is a good question.  From the sttuas we see that the 4th jhana is defined in terms of being free of suffering (adukkha).  It is being free of suffering that defined the 4 Noble Truths; and what defined an arahant was not just being free of suffering, but being liberated from the 10 fetters.  What we have found both from personal experience and the suttas is, one experience of th 4th jhana does not free one from either suffering (dukkha), nor the fetters; however, developing one's contemplative life to the point that one can meditate consistently to the 4th jhana definitely does free one from both suffering (dukkha), and the fetters.

However, what characterized Siddhartha Gautama, and what made him a Buddha, was his ability to recognize the significance of all 8 stages of the religious experience, as well as the fruit of the contemplative life.  So, to me, what makes a Buddha, Avatar, Messiah, Christ, is the ability to see the whole package, not just a part of it; and Siddhartha Gautama saw the whole package.  It is possible that other mystics, such as: Patanjali, John the Baptist, Jesus, Mohamed, Rumi, Kabir, Teresa of Avila, and others, might very well have understood the whole package, but had no student capable of understanding it, or recording.

The suttas describe all kinds fantastic supernatural feats. Do arahants possess supernatural abilities?

It depends upon what you mean by "fantastic supernatural feats."  If you mean; levitating, walking on water, parting the seas, raising the dead, turning into a rainbow, and other violations of the laws of physics, then, no.  No one can violate the laws of physics in the physical dimension.

However, if you are speaking of the non-physical fruit of the contemplative life, such as: the 8 stages of the religious experience; OOBEs; virtue/kundalini; being free of the addictions/fetters/sins; intuition and insight; sensing non-physical phenomena, such as the charisms, etc., then there are lots of fantastic phenomena, which we discuss on a regular basis on this forum, and I help people to sense them.

Why is it that you always refer to the Buddha by his common name, Siddhartha Gautama?

According the the suttas, Siddhartha Gautama, was not the only Buddha to have come along, nor the last; therefore, I refer to him by his name, so that I do not reinforce the rayification of Siddhartha Gautama, nor Jesus, as the only begotten, or last messiah/buddha, etc.

Buddhahood, or messiahship, is available to anyone who lives the lifestyle that produces all 8 stages of the religious experience; as well as all of the fruit of the contemplative life; as well as freedom from all of the sins/fetters/addictions.

[Alexander]

Was the Buddha a "super-arahant" compared to other arahants?

From the suttas it does seem like the Buddha tries to frame himself as being special. Although, whenever he's offered a claim to divinity, he rejects it. So it's up to you if you want to think he's the extra super special arahant of this world age (which he certainly is for founding Buddhism - but at the same time he is really no different from any other arahant).

We can try to humanize Siddharta, by fitting him into the world in which we lived. By comparing the 8 fold path of the Buddha with Patanjali's 8 fold path, we see the similarities and borrowing. And we also see that the Buddha lived in a context in which there were many other sahdhus and ascetics and yogis who were trying to figure out what this nirvana business was, and how to attain it.

The Buddha additionally references many other sages (for example in the "rock that eats saints" sutta). We also see him diffusing his specialness when he gives the analogy about the "Ancient Path" and the "Ancient City." These were metaphors the Buddha used in the suttas for the Way and for Nirvana. Meaning: "Aryans" have and always will seek the way. And some will follow it to fruition (Nirvana). These People, the Path, & Nirvana have always been there and always will for the human race.

Keep in mind I do believe in avatars. Personally I distinguish them based on their having a special mission or purpose in the -profane- world. Thus they are arahants of a specific kind. So avatars would be Christ, Krishna, & Bhishma. A prophet would be another, different kind of arahant. One who founds a religion and makes a -lesser- claim to divinity than an avatar does. So an example would be Mohammed.

The suttas describe all kinds fantastic supernatural feats. Do arahants possess supernatural abilities?

I am a bit more liberal about them than Jhananda is, but I honestly don't know. The powers of contemplatives are definitely real. There may also be other powers beyond them, like intuitions/premonitions; or others like healing, charisma, etc. Personally I tired one experiment several years ago about telekinesis. I tried to flip a coin and "will" that it land on one side more than the other. (Obviously I felt very silly doing this.) It had some suspicious results. But, when I went to try to do the experiment again, I was filled with doubt. So, if those powers are real, they are extremely difficult, and like Jesus says based on -faith-. Their rarity would also be understandable, because probably the only people who could acquire such powers would be contemplatives. And generally speaking we're an impassive lot. :)

[Michel]

Quote from: Michel on October 16, 2013, 06:17:18 AM

The suttas describe all kinds fantastic supernatural feats. Do arahants possess supernatural abilities?

Algorincz:

I am a bit more liberal about them than Jhananda is, but I honestly don't know. The powers of contemplatives are definitely real. There may also be other powers beyond them, like intuitions/premonitions; or others like healing, charisma, etc.

The only way to find out if arahants possess supernatural abilities is to see it clearly demonstrated, or to become an arahant oneself. All else is speculation, and  is a complete waste of time, in my view. Since no one has clearly demonstrated these supernatural abilities, and all we have to go on is hearsay, then one must find out for one's self through one's own direct experience.

I'm happy with Jhananda's view, that arahants are confined by the laws of physics within the material realms. That I can buy. The immaterial realms and their "fantastic phenomena" will reveal themselves by cultivating the religious experience, we are told. But if one can become an arahant by achieving freedom from suffering by mastering the 4th jhana, and becoming liberated from the 10 fetters through following the eightfold path -  then that for me is almost a supernatural feat. What more would one want, it's what we're all after.