Understanding Piti and Sukkha, or bliss and joy

[Michel]

Jhananda:

"...we might be willing to accept that the word "bliss" is simply the English word for pleasure of a spiritual origin, such as what one would expect from meditation.  Thus I believe "bliss" might be the most appropriate term to translate the Pali term "piti" as it is used as a factor in the jhanas..."

"... It is possible that the Pali terms "piti" and "sukha" may actually be synonyms..." - from the essay, Understanding Piti and Sukha, written by Jhananda. See at GWV site

Just finished reading your most excellent, well researched essay titled Understanding Piti and Sukkha based on five Pali to English dictionaries. Thank-you.

I understand that you mean piti to be pleasureable sensations, and sukha is possibly a synonym for bliss. In one of your videos you say that sukha is joy.  Could you explain both of these terms as one experiences them during meditation. Could you describe in detail or elaborate what exactly bliss feels like when one meditates? Defining it as pleasant sensations is too broad a definition. Would you do the same for joy?

No one seems to agree what these terms mean. I think you said in one of your videos that perhaps we should invent a new terminology in modern English based on your case histories of the meditation experience, one where everyone can agree. Well, you've got my vote on this one. All of these Pali terms are driving everyone nuts with confusion. How can we communicate with one another?

I've come to this conclusion: we should maybe trash the Pali Canon as well, and just let the contemporary, enlightened mystics explain in contemporary English all of what is necessary to understand for one to become enlightened. I bet it doesn't take six thousand pages in five volumes, along with an army of scholars to try and decipher it.

Essay on Understanding Piti and Sukkha, see here: http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/pitisukha.htm

[Jhanananda]

Jhananda:

"...we might be willing to accept that the word "bliss" is simply the English word for pleasure of a spiritual origin, such as what one would expect from meditation.  Thus I believe "bliss" might be the most appropriate term to translate the Pali term "piti" as it is used as a factor in the jhanas..."

"... It is possible that the Pali terms "piti" and "sukha" may actually be synonyms..." - from the essay, Understanding Piti and Sukha, written by Jhananda. See at GWV site

Just finished reading your most excellent, well researched essay titled Understanding Piti and Sukkha, based on five Pali to English dictionaries. Thank-you.

I understand that you mean piti to be pleasureable sensations, and sukha is possibly a synonym for bliss. In one of your videos you say that sukha is joy.  Could you explain both of these terms as one experiences them during meditation. Could you describe in detail or elaborate what exactly bliss feels like when one meditates? Defining it as pleasant sensations is too broad a definition. Would you do the same for joy?

While in the suttas many of the terms Siddhartha Gautama used were defined; however, I do not recall a place anywhere in the suttas where the terms 'piiti' and 'sukha' are defined, so we have to either accept the traditional interpretation of them within a Buddhist context, or consider looking outside of Buddhism, at least for a confirmation. 

It turns out that Hindu literature contemporary to the period of Siddhartha Gautama used similar terms in similar ways.  Those terms are 'ananda' and 'sukha.'  Now the interesting thing is Siddhartha Gautama's assistant late in his life was called "Ananda." So, one would think that he would have used the Sanskrit term 'ananda'; however, in the suttas it is only used as a personal name, not an adjective.

Nonetheless, Hindu literature contemporary to the period of Siddhartha Gautama used the terms 'ananda' and 'sukha' in much the same way it appears that Siddhartha Gautama used the terms 'piiti' and 'sukha.' 

The Sanskrit term 'ananda' is typically translated as 'bliss.'  The Sanskrit term 'sukha' is typically translated as 'joy.'  I see no reason not to accept the translation of those terms at this time.  And, I have had to conclude that the correct translation, therefore, of the Pali term 'piiti' should be 'bliss;' and the Pali use of the term 'sukha' is most probably 'joy.'

The experience of joy, within the context of a religious experience (samadhi) is one of an expansive sensation in the chest, proximal to the heart.  It is typically felt as warm, and is often times associated with the feelings that many of us associate with love.

The experience of bliss, within the context of a religious experience (samadhi) is all of the odd charismatic sensations, which have been described under the Fruit of the Contemplative life.

No one seems to agree what these terms mean. I think you said in one of your videos that perhaps we should invent a new terminology in modern English based on your case histories of the meditation experience, one where everyone can agree. Well, you've got my vote on this one. All of these Pali terms are driving everyone nuts with confusion. How can we communicate with one another?

(I've come to this conclusion: we should maybe trash the Pali Canon as well, and just let the contemporary, enlightened mystics explain in contemporary English all of what is necessary to understand for one to become enlightened. I bet it doesn't take six thousand pages in five volumes, along with an army of scholars to try and decipher it.)

Essay on Understanding Piti and Sukkha, see here: http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/pitisukha.htm

You make some powerful points; however, humans seem to think that ancient literature is some how valid, when they are unwilling to believe that people today can have the same experiences that ancient mystics had.  Thus, I believe all mystics should seek to preserve the ancient literature; however, vet the translation of that literature so that it is consistent with the common language of the time.

[Michel]

Thank-you for your interesting comments.
Jhananda:

The experience of bliss, within the context of a religious experience (samadhi) is all of the odd charismatic sensations, which have been described under the Fruit of the Contemplative life.

I just read the essay "Fruit of the Contemplative life".  It lists the eleven fruits of the contemplative life. But what does bliss feel like through the first to fourth jhana?
You've described joy very well, but what is it like through all the jhanas? Is it different shades of grey?
Jhananda:

Thus, I believe all mystics should seek to preserve the ancient literature; however, vet the translation of that literature so that it is consistent with the common language of the time.

And only the mystics alone, or working with the scholars, should do the  translations.

[Jhanananda]

Thank-you for your interesting comments.
I just read the essay "Fruit of the Contemplative life".  It lists the eleven fruits of the contemplative life. But what does bliss feel like through the first to fourth jhana?

I take the term bliss (piiti) to mean the actual sensory charisms, which means they are the manifestations of the signs (nimitta) of the religious experience (jhana).  Thus:

1) The tactile charism is often described as an electric or vibratory sensation on the surface of the body.
2) The auditory charism has a range of sounds from the chirping of crickets to the rushing of the ocean or wind, to a high pitched ringing.
3) The visual charism is luminosity.  It can appear like a kaleidoscope in the background of the visual field.
4) The gustatory charism is often described tasting like honey or ghe.
5) The olfactory charism is often described as smelling like sandal wood, or cedar, or roses
6) The kinesthetic charism is often described like vertigo, or being drunk, or dizzy.

Typically the charism arise in the 3rd stage of the religious experience (3rd jhana).  They just get more intense as the religious experience deepens until they overwhelm our sensory domain.  At which point we call it the 5th stage of the religious experience (5th samadhi).

You've described joy very well, but what is it like through all the jhanas? Is it different shades of grey?

Joy, like bliss, becomes more and more intense as the religious experience deepens until it become excruciating pain, but sweet pain, which one will want to arise again and again.

And only the mystics alone, or working with the scholars, should do the  translations.

I would expect that people would want mystics to translate and interpret their religious literature, but then most people would prefer a lie over the truth.

[Michel]

Interesting descriptions.

How would you describe the bliss and joy one experiences in the first and second jhana?

[Jhanananda]

The level of bliss and joy in the first jhana is not very great; however, it is typically enough to transform a person into a deeply devout person.

The level of bliss and joy in the second jhana is not very great either; however, it is greater than the first, and it is typically even more transformative.  These people often time believe that they are the next coming.  And, just think, there are 6 more stages of the religious experience to go.

[Michel]

Okay, so the level of bliss and joy are relatively low. Would you describe in detail the actual physical sensations of bliss and joy that one typically experiences in the first two jhanas? I'm trying to establish a benchmark so I can communicate my meditation experiences to this forum.

[Jhanananda]

The first jhana is more joy than it is bliss, because, it is here where the heart chakra opens, which drives one to lead a contemplative life and make a life-long commitment to it.

The salient point of the second stage of the religious experience is the stilling of the mind.  Here the subject finds that still mind joyful, to abstraction, which we could call bliss.  it is here where one will make even deeper transformations of one's lifestyle to maximize that still mind, which will be living in the moment.  This often involves giving up the day-job and down-sizing to live in a tiny house, etc.

The 3rd stage of the religious experience is where one begins to lose one self into the religious experience.  This is where the bliss takes off and radically transforms one's life to the point that there is no going back.  Often those in the 3rd stage of the religious experience will be considered by others as one who has gone crazy.

At the 4th stage of the religious experience one gives up everything for bliss.

At the 5th stage of the religious experience one moves into the wilderness.

At the 6th stage of the religious experience one forgets one's name.

At the 7th stage of the religious experience one forgets how to speak.

At the 8th stage of the religious experience one forgets what planet or period one is on.

When one traverse all 8 stages of the religious experience, then one becomes fully liberated.  This one comes back as the Messiah/Christ/Buddha/Prophet/Avatar of the age.  This one would gladly be crucified every day if one person in 500 years realizes that everyone, who is not enlightened, is insane, retarded and addicted.

[Michel]

I'm trying to understand what bliss is. You've described bliss in terms of the charisms. I get that. But could you describe the actual physical sensation of bliss other than the charisms? What I mean is, where does it occur? Is it warm fuzzy feelings? Is it waves of pleasant sensations moving throughout parts of the body? Is it an electromagnetic sensation? That sort of thing. As you see I'm somewhat confused.

[Jhanananda]

I have done my best to describe the experience of bliss.  Now you will just have to experience it for yourself, then maybe describe what you are experiencing, and ask if that is it.

[Michel]

Yes, you're right, that's the best way to go about it. What you've written here on piiti and sukkha is very helpful to my understanding.