Arahants versus fully enlightened beings

[Michel]

Jhananda, I and some others here seem to be somewhat confused about the difference, if there is one, between an Arahant as opposed to a fully enlightened being. You are an Arahant, and sometimes you say that you are going to return to Samsara to help others along the path to enlightenment. But in my studies, Arahants are described as fully enlightened beings who go directly to Nibanna after death, and it is impossible for them to take rebirth in any of the other realms, physical or immaterial. Is this view incorrect?

[Jhanananda]

When you are truly enlightened, then you can do anything you want to.

[Michel]

OK. I understand an Arahant to be someone who has overcome the ten fetters. By this definition is an Arahant fully enlightened?

[Jhanananda]

Well, we have discussed this before.  Someone who has mastered the first 4 stages of the religious experience (jhana) ends up free of the ten fetters, which makes them an Arahant; however, there are 8 stages of samadhi, and the upper 7 are all called liberations in the suttas.  Full liberation comes after the 8th samadhi.  But, who is counting? 

Master the first 4 and you are as good as done.  You need them to master the upper 4 anyway.  When you have mastered the lower 4 stages of the religious experience (jhana) you will be free of craving.  If you get more than the 4, then that is just icing on the cake.

[Jhanon]

When you are truly enlightened, then you can do anything you want to.

Can you explain to me how this is accurate? What are the details of what you have experienced or come to know that has you make that statement?

And, can you tell me in detail what you currently intend to after this lifetime?

This does have a motivational purpose for me.

[Jhanananda]

OK. I understand an Arahant to be someone who has overcome the ten fetters. By this definition is an Arahant fully enlightened?

If we define full enlightenment as full liberation, then it is defined in several suttas, but MN-26 is a good one to look at.  There we see all 8 stages of the religious experience (samadhi) described, then it goes into extinction (nirodha-samápatti), aka Cessation (saññá-vedayita-nirodha) aka Nibbana.  In my experience there is still a lot of liberating to do after the 4th jhana; however, from 4th jhana mastery on, one is no longer a material being, and has mastered one's self.

Can you explain to me how this is accurate? What are the details of what you have experienced or come to know that has you make that statement?

I have spent 40 years meditating deeply through the 8 stages of the religious experience (samadhi), and being lucid 24-7.  You do not have to believe me.  All you need do is meditate with depth every day for the rest of your life, and you will find out for yourself.

And, can you tell me in detail what you currently intend to after this lifetime?

This does have a motivational purpose for me.

I really do not have an intention.  My preference is the 8th samadhi; however, having no volition, means I go where I am called. I am constantly called in the immaterial domains to being who need me, so I am there.

[Jhanon]

I really do not have an intention.  My preference is the 8th samadhi; however, having no volition, means I go where I am called. I am constantly called in the immaterial domains to being who need me, so I am there.

Okay, so when this body comes to an end, do you become a new being, or are you some kind of transcendent "thing" that doesn't have the limitations of ordinary beings? You can go here, you can go there, without having to return to a plane (such as now when you have to return to earth), and you can at any time enter Nibbana? I have to at least ask. I'm concerned that maybe even the Buddha mis-calculated how much is possible through Enlightenment. I mean, how could he know for sure until the body actually died? And then once the body was dead, how could he inform others that his statements were proven accurate?

[Jhanananda]

Okay, so when this body comes to an end, do you become a new being, or are you some kind of transcendent "thing" that doesn't have the limitations of ordinary beings? You can go here, you can go there, without having to return to a plane (such as now when you have to return to earth), and you can at any time enter Nibbana? I have to at least ask.

No being, no thing, no attainment; just all encompassing transcendental awareness

I'm concerned that maybe even the Buddha mis-calculated how much is possible through Enlightenment. I mean, how could he know for sure until the body actually died? And then once the body was dead, how could he inform others that his statements were proven accurate?

I am not sure if Siddhartha Gautama miscalculated anything; however, one cannot know for sure.  Nonetheless, I would prefer to have bliss, joy and ecstasy in the hear and now, than believe I might have it because I bought into some bogus belief system about the there and then.