Rougeleader (beginner)

[Jhanananda]

In most cases when people get tired during meditation, or start to blackout, they are just falling asleep.  However, it sounds to me, rougeleader115, that at these times you are entering the immaterial domains, which is difficult to do if you are sitting up in meditation.  At that time I would suggest that you lie down in meditation and go out of body. On the other hand, if you meditate mostly lying down, then it might be the time to sit up and meditate, or stand or walk in meditation.

[rougeleader115]

Okay thank you for the suggestions, I hope I am not just falling asleep. I will continue to experiment with the basic meditation postures. I have not really ventured into standing or walking meditation since I have only recently began sitting upright more often. I saw a video from you a while back for walking meditation, so I will watch it again to refresh myself.

[Jhanon]

Hola hola,
Over the past 2 weeks when I sit to meditate, I sometimes find after about 45 mins or so that I start blacking out after the sensations intensify. I catch my head just as it is falling forward and it brings me back before I fall over. I was thinking I was just tired, but it keeps happening and it doesn't seem to matter whether I am fatigued before meditation or not. This sometimes happens during lying down meditation as well, but should I push to stay alert or is it fine for this to happen?

From how you describe it, this is also happening to me. I think it might be leaving the body, but our awareness is not intense enough to recall anything much other than "blacking out". But I am unsure.

[rougeleader115]

From how you describe it, this is also happening to me. I think it might be leaving the body, but our awareness is not intense enough to recall anything much other than "blacking out". But I am unsure.

I am unsure as well, but your explanation sounds reasonable to me. It has helped me to stay alert if I switch to open eye meditation for a few minutes when I feel myself slipping. After one or two times, I just close my eyes and either bathe in sensations the rest of the time, or blackout/sleep. Maybe after some time  I will either be alert enough not to fall asleep, or the blacking out might be replaced with lucid dreaming or an OOBE.

[rougeleader115]

Hi Jhanon,

It has been some time since I have seen a post from you. But I wanted to let you know that I came across a quote on the Jhana Support Group from Jhanananda in response to Kimo that supports your last reply:

"The blackout that you are experiencing is you entering the void, but
you are losing consciousness at that time. I can only say that with
more meditation practice you will eventually remain conscious through
the void. At that point you will be able to OOB consciously."

http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Jhanas/conversations/topics/15212  Dec.23.2008

[Jhanon]

Hi Jhanon,

It has been some time since I have seen a post from you. But I wanted to let you know that I came across a quote on the Jhana Support Group from Jhanananda in response to Kimo that supports your last reply:

"The blackout that you are experiencing is you entering the void, but
you are losing consciousness at that time. I can only say that with
more meditation practice you will eventually remain conscious through
the void. At that point you will be able to OOB consciously."

http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Jhanas/conversations/topics/15212  Dec.23.2008

Hi Rougeleader,

I have been constantly busy taking care of my newborn. I barely find time to meditate. Sometimes I drink coffee just before bed so that I can meditate while everyone else sleeps. Lol. This is why I've not interacted as much lately. I will however be available and active until Friday.

I'm glad you found some contextual evidence to make sense of our experiences. I am still learning how to access the old forum archives. Perhaps I will try your eye-opening method next time.

[rougeleader115]

I have been constantly busy taking care of my newborn. I barely find time to meditate. Sometimes I drink coffee just before bed so that I can meditate while everyone else sleeps. Lol. This is why I've not interacted as much lately. I will however be available and active until Friday.

I am amazed to know you have a newborn (though not exactly certain why). I am sorry to hear that that interferes with your time to meditate, but hopefully with the beginning of your mendicant life, you will find much time to make up for it. I am sorry not to have dialoged much on your plans to leave, but I am not very knowledgeable on what would even be helpful. But I want you to know I wish the very best for you. I am hoping Friday is not the last time we will hear from you.

Annnd, this morning I came across this video again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5s5FNK6jX0

I wasn't looking for more support on what you said, but I heard Jhanananda bring it up at the end of this video while talking with Karen, and I thought it might be worth noting. Where he was talking about the "blackness" or "flash of black" being the 5th Samahdi.

[Jhanon]

I am also amazed to know I have a newborn---LOL. Trust me, I never intended it. My childhood was so traumatic, and my whole life so difficult, that I long ago lost count of how many times I told myself I would never have children. And yet I did.

How it happened was a perfect storm, but I won't get into that too much. I've spoke about it elsewhere, I think. But this is my reason, in other posts today, for urging the beginner to avoid long-lasting responsibility as much as possible. I love my child, and my partner, but I am weary of life. I long for the release of enlightenment.

And in my experience, worldly desires like romantic relationships and child-bearing are merely shadows of the ecstasy, bliss, and satisfaction of union with God/Emptiness/whatever you want to call it. Ideally, I will pull off a Rumi or Jhananda (Rumi was married, and Jhananda raised children.)

I feel strongly that you will not cease to hear from me. This community uplifts, supports, understands, and is a safe haven for me. I gain strength from you all, and that is precious to me.

That video reminded me of many excellent points, and made sense of my most recent deep experience. Thank you, Rougeleader. But what they discuss at the end is not exactly what I experience. I think I detailed it wrong. What usually happens is like a sudden loss of consciousness. I'll be in 2nd or 3rd jhana, and then suddenly I'm realizing I've been meditating. I check the time, and often as much as 30 or 45 minutes has gone by. This even happens in the middle of the day when I'm totally awake, so I struggle to see how it could be sleep. I don't know--it's like a seeming lapse in experience continuity.

And thank you for your well wishes.

[rougeleader115]

I am also amazed to know I have a newborn---LOL. Trust me, I never intended it. My childhood was so traumatic, and my whole life so difficult, that I long ago lost count of how many times I told myself I would never have children. And yet I did.

How it happened was a perfect storm, but I won't get into that too much. I've spoke about it elsewhere, I think. But this is my reason, in other posts today, for urging the beginner to avoid long-lasting responsibility as much as possible. I love my child, and my partner, but I am weary of life. I long for the release of enlightenment.

This matches with how I have felt so far. I have a long time partner who wishes to have children one day( but thankfully not at all right now). I have let it be known that I am not certain I wish to take on such a task for many reasons besides just the material responsibilities. I won't get into more because I am finding it hard to explain my feelings through typing this morning.

And in my experience, worldly desires like romantic relationships and child-bearing are merely shadows of the ecstasy, bliss, and satisfaction of union with God/Emptiness/whatever you want to call it. Ideally, I will pull off a Rumi or Jhananda (Rumi was married, and Jhananda raised children.)

I feel strongly that you will not cease to hear from me. This community uplifts, supports, understands, and is a safe haven for me. I gain strength from you all, and that is precious to me.

That video reminded me of many excellent points, and made sense of my most recent deep experience. Thank you, Rougeleader. But what they discuss at the end is not exactly what I experience. I think I detailed it wrong. What usually happens is like a sudden loss of consciousness. I'll be in 2nd or 3rd jhana, and then suddenly I'm realizing I've been meditating. I check the time, and often as much as 30 or 45 minutes has gone by. This even happens in the middle of the day when I'm totally awake, so I struggle to see how it could be sleep. I don't know--it's like a seeming lapse in experience continuity.

And thank you for your well wishes.

What you say here again matches the way I would try to explain it. So maybe I am the one who has not detailed correctly. I find there is a definite loss of conciousness for some meditations and the time I am gone varies greatly. Its just me being aware of the charismatic sensations swelling over my bodily sensations and then boom, it is like I am waking up from a surgery or deep sleep without the heavy medicatied/groggy feeling. I find it doesn't always matter if I am tired or not, I may feel alert and rested and still find a lapse in my awareness for a non-specific amount of time. I've had it happen for seconds, minutes, and halfhour times like you describe, but nothing over 1 1/2  hours. Sometimes I lucid dream, but mostly it is nothing. So without an exact understanding of what is happen, I continue on and try to keep a still mind and to stay alert and aware of the charisms as long as I can, just in case it's nothing but sleep.

On a side note to all of this, I began journaling my dreams on my mobile device whenever I wake up almost two weeks ago now. This has been coupled with at least a night and morning meditation. I still have no idea I am dreaming in a dream, but I am mostly aware of my own thoughts and actions in the dream as if it were my daily life. It feels funny experiencing this because it feels like I don't really sleep, its like I go from my regular day life, then have a couple hours of weird and sometimes unpleasant dreams (haven't experienced anything necessarily pleasurable yet), and then I am back here to the daily life again. I wonder if I am jumping the gun by lucid dreaming before I have mastered the material jhanas? I didn't expect to find progress this quickly, but I have seen else where that one may have no attainment but still be able to lucid dream, so should I put the brakes on or just go for it?

[Jhanon]

I am also amazed to know I have a newborn---LOL. Trust me, I never intended it. My childhood was so traumatic, and my whole life so difficult, that I long ago lost count of how many times I told myself I would never have children. And yet I did.

How it happened was a perfect storm, but I won't get into that too much. I've spoke about it elsewhere, I think. But this is my reason, in other posts today, for urging the beginner to avoid long-lasting responsibility as much as possible. I love my child, and my partner, but I am weary of life. I long for the release of enlightenment.

This matches with how I have felt so far. I have a long time partner who wishes to have children one day( but thankfully not at all right now). I have let it be known that I am not certain I wish to take on such a task for many reasons besides just the material responsibilities. I won't get into more because I am finding it hard to explain my feelings through typing this morning.

Well, that was basically where my partner and I stood as well. Be careful (unless your partnership is same sex--hey, I don't assume one way or the other). Even two methods of birth control used together aren't 100 percent. That's all I'll say.

And in my experience, worldly desires like romantic relationships and child-bearing are merely shadows of the ecstasy, bliss, and satisfaction of union with God/Emptiness/whatever you want to call it. Ideally, I will pull off a Rumi or Jhananda (Rumi was married, and Jhananda raised children.)

I feel strongly that you will not cease to hear from me. This community uplifts, supports, understands, and is a safe haven for me. I gain strength from you all, and that is precious to me.

That video reminded me of many excellent points, and made sense of my most recent deep experience. Thank you, Rougeleader. But what they discuss at the end is not exactly what I experience. I think I detailed it wrong. What usually happens is like a sudden loss of consciousness. I'll be in 2nd or 3rd jhana, and then suddenly I'm realizing I've been meditating. I check the time, and often as much as 30 or 45 minutes has gone by. This even happens in the middle of the day when I'm totally awake, so I struggle to see how it could be sleep. I don't know--it's like a seeming lapse in experience continuity.

And thank you for your well wishes.

What you say here again matches the way I would try to explain it. So maybe I am the one who has not detailed correctly. I find there is a definite loss of conciousness for some meditations and the time I am gone varies greatly. Its just me being aware of the charismatic sensations swelling over my bodily sensations and then boom, it is like I am waking up from a surgery or deep sleep without the heavy medicatied/groggy feeling. I find it doesn't always matter if I am tired or not, I may feel alert and rested and still find a lapse in my awareness for a non-specific amount of time. I've had it happen for seconds, minutes, and halfhour times like you describe, but nothing over 1 1/2  hours. Sometimes I lucid dream, but mostly it is nothing. So without an exact understanding of what is happen, I continue on and try to keep a still mind and to stay alert and aware of the charisms as long as I can, just in case it's nothing but sleep.

On a side note to all of this, I began journaling my dreams on my mobile device whenever I wake up almost two weeks ago now. This has been coupled with at least a night and morning meditation. I still have no idea I am dreaming in a dream, but I am mostly aware of my own thoughts and actions in the dream as if it were my daily life. It feels funny experiencing this because it feels like I don't really sleep, its like I go from my regular day life, then have a couple hours of weird and sometimes unpleasant dreams (haven't experienced anything necessarily pleasurable yet), and then I am back here to the daily life again. I wonder if I am jumping the gun by lucid dreaming before I have mastered the material jhanas? I didn't expect to find progress this quickly, but I have seen else where that one may have no attainment but still be able to lucid dream, so should I put the brakes on or just go for it?

Exactly the same for me, in regards to your comment about the apparent consciousness loss.

Yeah, the continuity that increased awareness during dreaming can bring is a little strange at first. Jhananda has talked at length about the impact of increased awareness and OOBE during sleep. There are benefits like improved equanimity and dispassion.

I can't journal like that anymore, because I wake up to my child and have like 20 things to do right away, so I don't experience much OOBE/Lucid Dreaming. Maybe you'll thank me later for mentioning things like that ^_^

Lucid dreaming progress happens really fast, in my experience. It's really up to you if you want to dive in or not. But eventually on this path you will begin OOBE/lucid dreaming when you sleep, anyway. That's just what happens when you begin to increase your awareness.

Other than the above mentioned obstacles to journaling and working on lucid dreaming, I also began to experience terrifying dreams. At least one of them was re-living a past death. But I also had some tremendously magical and pleasurable ones--like flying through a fantasy world where almost all my fantasies were being fulfilled--or having "intimate" encounters with angels.

The cons are only short-term, and the pro's are long-term--REALLY long term. As far as I understand and have reasoned, there is an obvious big pro that you will be moving closer and faster toward enlightenment. And that you'll have to experience all these things at some point or another on the path of enlightenment anyway.

[rougeleader115]

I apologize ahead of time for any errors in this post. I am limited to a mobile device right now and I am sure I will miss something.

I just wanted to update and once again ask for guidance. I have found my dreams progressively becoming more lucid to the point it is like living a day of life. though these do not at all resemble what I would expect a past lifetime experience to be like, they are still very engaging. I have found that what feels like 2 days can pass in my dreams, while only a few hours pass in real life. Also the amount/accuracy of experience and content that occur in the dreams really leave me confused when I wake up. these are the first few dreams of my life that I would live a day, go to sleep, and then wake up and live another day all in the span of a few hours.

I wake up every few hours and sometimes it is also very difficult to sleep unless I meditate to sleep because of the energy I feel throughout my body. I worry I am creating a problem by meditating these extra hours in the night, since I already do right before bed and when I wake up in the morning. Any recommendations for sleep?

Lastly, there has been awareness of a tremendously deep emotional pain inside of me for what feels like months now that I don't know how to release. At random times I want to cry and ball, but I do not entirely, tears may roll but I never feel like I am in a place to just let it all go. It is the same with a deep rage I feel inside as well. the charisms help me feel I am doing something right because the ringing in my ears has gotten progressively louder, though not uncomfortable, as well as the depth of energy I feel during my meditations and daily life have increased. what am I to do with these strong mostly unprovoked emotions? will allowing them to express fully help me or hurt me?

[Jhanananda]

I apologize ahead of time for any errors in this post. I am limited to a mobile device right now and I am sure I will miss something.

I just wanted to update and once again ask for guidance. I have found my dreams progressively becoming more lucid to the point it is like living a day of life. though these do not at all resemble what I would expect a past lifetime experience to be like, they are still very engaging. I have found that what feels like 2 days can pass in my dreams, while only a few hours pass in real life. Also the amount/accuracy of experience and content that occur in the dreams really leave me confused when I wake up. these are the first few dreams of my life that I would live a day, go to sleep, and then wake up and live another day all in the span of a few hours.

Gaining lucidity in the sleep state is a characteristic of intensified meditation practice, which transforms one into a mystic.  When the level of lucidity of the sleep state gets to be equal to the lucidity of the waking state we can call that the deathless state (amatta) that Siddhartha Gautama reported.  It is called 'eternal life' in Christianity.

I wake up every few hours and sometimes it is also very difficult to sleep unless I meditate to sleep because of the energy I feel throughout my body. I worry I am creating a problem by meditating these extra hours in the night, since I already do right before bed and when I wake up in the morning. Any recommendations for sleep?

This is why becoming a mystic is a full-time occupation, because we tend to rest in short snatches, and need to rest when we feel like it, not when it is socially acceptable, or fits our work schedule.

Lastly, there has been awareness of a tremendously deep emotional pain inside of me for what feels like months now that I don't know how to release. At random times I want to cry and ball, but I do not entirely, tears may roll but I never feel like I am in a place to just let it all go. It is the same with a deep rage I feel inside as well. the charisms help me feel I am doing something right because the ringing in my ears has gotten progressively louder, though not uncomfortable, as well as the depth of energy I feel during my meditations and daily life have increased.

I too found strong mostly unprovoked emotions arising when I deepened my meditation practice.  I am certain that most of these strong emotions are rising up from the depths of our subconscious because of the depth of our meditation practice.  Also, these deep emotions are often times the product of a mystic who lives in a world that completely rejects its mystics.

what am I to do with these strong mostly unprovoked emotions? will allowing them to express fully help me or hurt me?

I took them as spontaneous expressions, like a kriya.  In that case I just step back and let it happen.  It does create some confusion for the non-mystics in one's life, so it can help to retreat into the wilderness, where one can roar (cry) like a lion, as John the Baptist did.

[rougeleader115]

Gaining lucidity in the sleep state is a characteristic of intensified meditation practice, which transforms one into a mystic.  When the level of lucidity of the sleep state gets to be equal to the lucidity of the waking state we can call that the deathless state (amatta) that Siddhartha Gautama reported.  It is called 'eternal life' in Christianity.

This is again one of the most encouraging things for me to read. I know there is much much more to explore and I am only cracking the door, but I am still enthused by this progress and your words.

Sadly all of my dreams for the past week or so have been rather disturbing. I awoke yelling this morning, from having been yelling at someone who was trying to harm me in my dream. In the second dream, I was being attacked/robbed by some men with guns. The day before, I dreamed coyotes came for my partner and I as we wandered into our surrounding woods. And the last one I can quickly recall from earlier this week involved me going to jail for two days. Went to jail and was booked, but no mugshot or fingerprint. Had to stay in there with my brother for those two days and was extremely embarrassed and worried about our safety incessantly.

The main reason for me saying that , especially when I first wake up, has to do with the trauma and emotions that follow me very seamlessly from the dreams. Even though I realize I am back, like this morning, I was so infuriated at being attacked that I was shaking and unable to calm down for a good while. I'm sure it is normal to feel this way after an unpleasant dream, but I just felt the need to say what my experience has been lately.

This is why becoming a mystic is a full-time occupation, because we tend to rest in short snatches, and need to rest when we feel like it, not when it is socially acceptable, or fits our work schedule.

This is constantly becoming more apparant to me as I continue on. I'm glad to finding these things out with your guidance, instead of fighting to figure out every single step.

I too found strong mostly unprovoked emotions arising when I deepened my meditation practice.  I am certain that most of these strong emotions are rising up from the depths of our subconscious because of the depth of our meditation practice.  Also, these deep emotions are often times the product of a mystic who lives in a world that completely rejects its mystics.

These are very reasonable explainations for me as to why I would be experiencing these emotions.   

I took them as spontaneous expressions, like a kriya.  In that case I just step back and let it happen.  It does create some confusion for the non-mystics in one's life, so it can help to retreat into the wilderness, where one can roar (cry) like a lion, as John the Baptist did.

This also sounds like an incredibly good way to get this out of me. I had been feeling such an urge to do so, but I wanted to make sure it would be a good way to deal with it. I got a good laugh from your use of "roar(cry) like a lion". I really mean it Jeffrey, thank you.

[Jhanananda]

This is again one of the most encouraging things for me to read. I know there is much much more to explore and I am only cracking the door, but I am still enthused by this progress and your words...I'm glad to finding these things out with your guidance, instead of fighting to figure out every single step...These are very reasonable explainations for me as to why I would be experiencing these emotions.   

A good teacher encourages, a mediocre teacher does not know, a poor teacher misdirects.  We know a tree by its fruit.

Sadly all of my dreams for the past week or so have been rather disturbing. I awoke yelling this morning, from having been yelling at someone who was trying to harm me in my dream. In the second dream, I was being attacked/robbed by some men with guns. The day before, I dreamed coyotes came for my partner and I as we wandered into our surrounding woods. And the last one I can quickly recall from earlier this week involved me going to jail for two days. Went to jail and was booked, but no mugshot or fingerprint. Had to stay in there with my brother for those two days and was extremely embarrassed and worried about our safety incessantly.

The main reason for me saying that , especially when I first wake up, has to do with the trauma and emotions that follow me very seamlessly from the dreams. Even though I realize I am back, like this morning, I was so infuriated at being attacked that I was shaking and unable to calm down for a good while. I'm sure it is normal to feel this way after an unpleasant dream, but I just felt the need to say what my experience has been lately.

The lower astral is full of drama.  If you just rise to a higher level, then you will find untold bliss.

This also sounds like an incredibly good way to get this out of me. I had been feeling such an urge to do so, but I wanted to make sure it would be a good way to deal with it. I got a good laugh from your use of "roar(cry) like a lion". I really mean it Jeffrey, thank you.

Most mystics find what they are looking for in the solitude of the wilderness.  The urge for that solitude, becomes paramount.

Yes, the bible is translated as John was a 'cry in the wilderness;' however, I am quite sure it was a roar.

[Jhanon]

Wow, Rougeleader. You've been a busy body since I was away. Such tremendous progress! I heartily congratulate you I am personally familiar with the experiences you're describing, although your comment about feeling as though you live one complete day and then wake up and live another, is a claim that I cannot make.

I am making my way back to you lovely folks here. Life has been busy, but it's begun to make sense and now all is coming together.