First post and some questions

[Peace]

Hello Jhananda and All,

This is my first post. I am interested in these discussions. I have read around this forum and GWV website, and I have some questions. First, if I have misunderstood something or misstated something, please correct me otherwise. I am flexible!

Jhananda, you have mentioned that upon complete mastery of the 4 jhanas, one is an Arahant, thus having uprooted all 10 fetters and ending the cycle of samsara. Is my understanding correct so far?

However, the Suttas state that an Arahant is one whose mental fermentations have ended and mental fermentations end upon attainment of "cessation of perception and feeling." See following:

AN 6.49 Khema Sutta: ""When a monk is an arahant, with his fermentations ended— one who has reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, totally destroyed the fetter of becoming, and is released through right gnosis..."

AN 9.42 Pancala Sutta: "Then there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended. Even this much is described by the Blessed One as the attaining of an opening in a confining place, without a sequel."

I was wondering if you may answer this. If I have misunderstood, please correct otherwise.

Other questions:
What is your view on present day Vinaya rules (eating once a day and others...)?
What is the relationship between Mahavira and Jainism with Buddhism and mysticism?
Why didn't Buddha include the immaterial attainments in the Noble Eight Fold Path (only the four jhanas)?
What exactly ends samsara: mastery of four jhanas or attainment of Nirodha Samapatti/Nibbana (cessation of perception and feeling)?

I appreciate the opportunity to post on this form.
Kind & happy wishes.

[Jhanananda]

Hello Jhananda and All,

This is my first post. I am interested in these discussions. I have read around this forum and GWV website, and I have some questions. First, if I have misunderstood something or misstated something, please correct me otherwise. I am flexible!

Jhananda, you have mentioned that upon complete mastery of the 4 jhanas, one is an Arahant, thus having uprooted all 10 fetters and ending the cycle of samsara. Is my understanding correct so far?

Welcome Peace, and thank-you for posting your inquiry.  In answer to your question, yes.

However, the Suttas state that an Arahant is one whose mental fermentations have ended and mental fermentations end upon attainment of "cessation of perception and feeling." See following:

AN 6.49 Khema Sutta: ""When a monk is an arahant, with his fermentations ended— one who has reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, totally destroyed the fetter of becoming, and is released through right gnosis..."

AN 9.42 Pancala Sutta: "Then there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended. Even this much is described by the Blessed One as the attaining of an opening in a confining place, without a sequel."

I was wondering if you may answer this. If I have misunderstood, please correct otherwise.

Why didn't Buddha include the immaterial attainments in the Noble Eight Fold Path (only the four jhanas)?
What exactly ends samsara: mastery of four jhanas or attainment of Nirodha Samapatti/Nibbana (cessation of perception and feeling)?

I believe that you just answered your question.  In the suttas there are a number of descriptions of the 8th fold of the N8P.  Most of them only describe the 4 jhanas, however, a small number describe all 8 stages of the religious experience (samadhi).  It is my experience, and supported by the many case histories that have come into the GWV, that the 4th jhana is all that is needed for Arahantship; however, in my experience there is indeed a higher level of attainment, which I believe is full Buddhahood.  That level is Nirodha Samapatti/Nibbana, and that comes after mastering all 8 levels of samadhi see MN 26.

Other questions:
What is your view on present day Vinaya rules (eating once a day and others...)?

Well, there are lots of Vinaya rules.  The vinaya regarding eating only states that one will stop begging for food by noon.  It does not state how often one should eat.  It is common practice in Theravadan Buddhism that the monks are fed once a day, and they are given a "bowl" to put that offering in; however, that "bowl" is not just a little soup bowl.  In most cases it is a tera cotta urn that would hold about a 1-2 gallons (4-8L) of material, so that the monk could theoretically fill it up to the brim, if he was so inclined. 

There are in fact cases of obese Theravadan monks.  How does a Theravadan monk get obese?  In part through filling that 1-2 gallon (4-8L) bucket with food, and the other way is, believe it or not, chocolate is considered "medicine" in Theravadan Buddhism; and medicine is not restricted.  This means a Theravadan monk could eat 5lbs (2KG) of chocolate every day if he so wanted, and that is how you get obese monks in Theravadan Buddhism.

On the other hand, I have also read, and been inspired by, a wide range of contemplative and mystical literature.  If I recall correctly, the Bagavad Gita states something like, "Eat when you are hungry, drink when you are thirsty, rest when you are tired."  That seemed like wise advice to me, and I have followed it for about 40 years.

What is the relationship between Mahavira and Jainism with Buddhism and mysticism?

I appreciate the opportunity to post on this form.
Kind & happy wishes.

The subject of Mahavira in Jainism, verse Siddhartha Gautama in Buddhism is a very interesting subject.  In the suttas, Mahavira and Jainism are dumped on all of the time; however, Mahavira was known as the "Nigantha," which means "without clothes," because he had given up everything, even clothes.  Which seemed to me to be consistent with much of Siddhartha Gautama's lifestyle of wondering and begging. 

I would have expected that Siddhartha Gautama, who appears to have come after Mahavira, would have been a follower of Mahavira.  But, Indian history is highly fragmented, because they did not keep track of the year, until only a few centuries ago, so we cannot be clear who came first.  It would make sense, if Mahavira came a few years after Siddhartha Gautama had begun his teaching, but then it would be reasonable then, if Mahavira was then a student of Siddhartha Gautama's.

It is just a very interesting question worth investigating, and if I ever get the time to do so, then I plan to dig into it.

[Peace]

Thank you for answering my inquires, Jhananda. I appreciate it. But I am still unsure about Arahantship and mastery of the four jhanas. I base this off the following Sutta passage:

AN 4.123 Jhana Sutta Mental Absorption (1): "Again, there is the case where an individual, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. He savors that, longs for that, finds satisfaction through that. Staying there — fixed on that, dwelling there often, not falling away from that — then when he dies he reappears in conjunction with the Vehapphala[4] devas. The Vehapphala devas, monks, have a life-span of 500 eons. A run-of-the-mill person having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, goes to hell, to the animal womb, to the state of the hungry shades. But a disciple of the Blessed One, having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, is unbound right in that state of being. This, monks, is the difference, this the distinction, this the distinguishing factor, between an educated disciple of the noble ones and an uneducated run-of-the-mill person, when there is a destination, a reappearing."

So, how are we sure that we are not "run of the mill" versus"disciple of the Blessed One" to prevent rebirth into lower realms?

In addition, if an Arahant is one who has ended his mental fermentations (which is the result of Nibbana/ cessation), then it would seem that the fourth jhana would not equate to Arahantship. I was wondering if you can input on this especially.

I ask these questions because you have direct knowledge of deep meditative attainments and various nonphysical phenomena. I am simply curious to know.

Thank you again and kind regards.

[Jhanananda]

Thank you for answering my inquires, Jhananda. I appreciate it. But I am still unsure about Arahantship and mastery of the four jhanas. I base this off the following Sutta passage:

AN 4.123 Jhana Sutta Mental Absorption (1): "Again, there is the case where an individual, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. He savors that, longs for that, finds satisfaction through that. Staying there — fixed on that, dwelling there often, not falling away from that — then when he dies he reappears in conjunction with the Vehapphala[4] devas. The Vehapphala devas, monks, have a life-span of 500 eons. A run-of-the-mill person having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, goes to hell, to the animal womb, to the state of the hungry shades. But a disciple of the Blessed One, having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, is unbound right in that state of being. This, monks, is the difference, this the distinction, this the distinguishing factor, between an educated disciple of the noble ones and an uneducated run-of-the-mill person, when there is a destination, a reappearing."

So, how are we sure that we are not "run of the mill" versus"disciple of the Blessed One" to prevent rebirth into lower realms?

I had scoured the suttas that I had for a direct reference to jhana and the levels of superior beings, and found no direct correlation, but I had not examined the Angutara.  One should; however, keep in mind that all religious doctrine is an anthology of literature that was inspired by a common religion.  This means that in every religious doctrine are competing concepts.  For instance I do not at all accept all suttas unconditionally; nonetheless, this sutta quote should be considered.

I have already stated; how I came to my conclusion was from direct religious experience (samadhi) and the intuitive, revelatory insight (vipassana) that comes with it.  Those who master only the 4th jhana seem to be free of the hindrance; therefore, by definition in the suttas, they are arahatts.  However, do not believe.  Find out for yourself through leading a rigorous, self-aware contemplative life, that bares the superior fruit (maha-phala), then let us know.

In addition, if an Arahant is one who has ended his mental fermentations (which is the result of Nibbana/ cessation), then it would seem that the fourth jhana would not equate to Arahantship. I was wondering if you can input on this especially.

If that is indeed the definition as you find it.

I ask these questions because you have direct knowledge of deep meditative attainments and various nonphysical phenomena. I am simply curious to know.

Thank you again and kind regards.

Thank-you for asking your most interesting question, and providing and interesting sutta quote to support your question.

[Peace]

"I had scoured the suttas that I had for a direct reference to jhana and the levels of superior beings, and found no direct correlation, but I had not examined the Angutara.  One should; however, keep in mind that all religious doctrine is an anthology of literature that was inspired by a common religion.  This means that in every religious doctrine are competing concepts."

I understand. This is true.

"However, do not believe.  Find out for yourself through leading a rigorous, self-aware contemplative life, that bares the superior fruit (maha-phala), then let us know."

Indeed, I admit that I have not achieved anything significant in my meditation, yet. Like many other people on this forum, I too am seeking attainment of the highest. In the near future, I do plan to live a serious contemplative life grounded in deep meditation and mindfulness until the goal is reached. Nibbāna is literally at the tip of our nose!

With kindness & respectfully,
Peace

[Jhanon]

Welcome Peace. I am pleased to see you here and investigating.

However, do not believe.  Find out for yourself through leading a rigorous, self-aware contemplative life, that bares the superior fruit (maha-phala), then let us know.

For me, it is often that I question any kind of teacher. I believe this is paramount, despite how much trouble it got me with those with authority complexes, like school teachers and parents when I was young. You can see me questioning Jhananda on here quite often.

It is highly tempting to try and ascertain the truth with the intellectual mind, but I have found that in the end I simply go in circles without finding the depths of what the Buddha and other mystics were talking about. No different than the majority of scholarly commentaries and monasteries which failed to give me the samadhi guidance I sought.

I had scoured the suttas that I had for a direct reference to jhana and the levels of superior beings, and found no direct correlation, but I had not examined the Angutara.  One should; however, keep in mind that all religious doctrine is an anthology of literature that was inspired by a common religion.  This means that in every religious doctrine are competing concepts.  For instance I do not at all accept all suttas unconditionally; nonetheless, this sutta quote should be considered.

On the subject of what is in bold, Peace, there is even a sutta I found which says women cannot attain enlightenment. I highly doubt the Buddha said this, so I have learned to exercise discernment with the suttas. The best way, also in my experience, is to practice jhana and the rest of the noble eight-fold path, and discuss my findings with others who practice similarily. Once I began reaching past 3rd jhana, things really started coming together as discernment and wisdom gained great depth and fortitude. It is then that the Buddha's teachings really begin to take on profound meaning, and one finds confidence in walking the Path. It's also when we start learning things we previously didn't understand, AND things we never knew about. So far I have found it to all come together, especially with the help and context of jhana and daily saturation in its gifts.

It seems anyone practicing the noble eightfold path and who has a hunger for truth and enlightenment can attain jhana, and it is more profound than I ever imagined. This coming from someone diagnosed with ADHD Quality guidance and companionship i have also found to be a tremendous help. I hope you stick around and put this all to the test.

I hope you don't mind my joining in the discussion to offer perspective, friend. Take it for what it's worth. I hope it was of use to hear my personal perspective.

[Sam Lim]

Hi all and welcome Peace. I for one does not read the suttas. Not that I am very accomplished or arrogant but the jhanas can lead one forward if one is sensitive enough. That's how I go through. Not all written suttas, bible or any other holy books can be interpreted correctly. One should use one's discernment. If it's not joyous, happy and bring equanimity, then probably it's not worth following. Cheers. 

[Jhanananda]

For me, it is often that I question any kind of teacher. I believe this is paramount, despite how much trouble it got me with those with authority complexes, like school teachers and parents when I was young. You can see me questioning Jhananda on here quite often.

I think critical thinking is as important as rigorous meditation practice, and self-awareness.  Where I have a problem with criticism is when someone posts a link to a long line of lies, which was done recently.  It does not reveal critical thinking.  It reveals a profound lack of it.

It is highly tempting to try and ascertain the truth with the intellectual mind, but I have found that in the end I simply go in circles without finding the depths of what the Buddha and other mystics were talking about. No different than the majority of scholarly commentaries and monasteries which failed to give me the samadhi guidance I sought.

This is a good point.  While we do not need to exercise critical thinking, we could all too easily err on the side of too much intellectualism, that is why I also emphasize finding out for our selves through leading a contemplative lifestyle.

This means that in every religious doctrine are competing concepts.  For instance I do not at all accept all suttas unconditionally; nonetheless, this sutta quote should be considered.

On the subject of what is in bold, Peace, there is even a sutta I found which says women cannot attain enlightenment. I highly doubt the Buddha said this, so I have learned to exercise discernment with the suttas.

I was specifically thinking of this sutta at the time.  Sadly the sutta has parts that are critical in supporting mystics, like us, so we cannot just throw out a whole sutta.  We may have to throw out parts.

The best way, also in my experience, is to practice jhana and the rest of the noble eight-fold path, and discuss my findings with others who practice similarily. Once I began reaching past 3rd jhana, things really started coming together as discernment and wisdom gained great depth and fortitude. It is then that the Buddha's teachings really begin to take on profound meaning, and one finds confidence in walking the Path. It's also when we start learning things we previously didn't understand, AND things we never knew about. So far I have found it to all come together, especially with the help and context of jhana and daily saturation in its gifts.

That is why this forum is here, because I am sure we have all had the experience of telling meditation teachers, or priests, or psychiatrists about our experiences and ending up either marginalized, or medicated.

It seems anyone practicing the noble eightfold path and who has a hunger for truth and enlightenment can attain jhana, and it is more profound than I ever imagined. This coming from someone diagnosed with ADHD Quality guidance and companionship i have also found to be a tremendous help. I hope you stick around and put this all to the test.

This is precisely my premise, and, so far, everyone who has posted a case history here has proven that premise is correct.

I hope you don't mind my joining in the discussion to offer perspective, friend. Take it for what it's worth. I hope it was of use to hear my personal perspective.

...Not all written suttas, bible or any other holy books can be interpreted correctly. One should use one's discernment. If it's not joyous, happy and bring equanimity, then probably it's not worth following. Cheers. 

Wise advice.

[Peace]

Thanks Jhanon and gandarloda for the welcome.
Jhanaon, I don't mind at all. Your remarks were insightful, I shall keep them in mind when I practice.
gandarloda, I agree, that mastery of jhana is the path to wisdom and freedom.

I have spent quite some time researching and gathering information from the Suttas and other internet resources, and, truthfully, I am starting to get a headache just continuously reading! There is a limit to this intellectual work and there needs to come a time to actually do the work: living the Noble Eight Fold Path daily and seriously. So, I agree with Jhananda, Jhanon, and others about actually practicing the N8FP to realize Buddhas' Teachings.

[Jhanon]

Thanks Jhanon and gandarloda for the welcome.
Jhanaon, I don't mind at all. Your remarks were insightful, I shall keep them in mind when I practice.
gandarloda, I agree, that mastery of jhana is the path to wisdom and freedom.

I have spent quite some time researching and gathering information from the Suttas and other internet resources, and, truthfully, I am starting to get a headache just continuously reading! There is a limit to this intellectual work and there needs to come a time to actually do the work: living the Noble Eight Fold Path daily and seriously. So, I agree with Jhananda, Jhanon, and others about actually practicing the N8FP to realize Buddhas' Teachings.

.
You're most welcome, Peace.

I am happy to read the response you provided.

I think most of us have to traverse the tendency to intellectualize. I think it is even more challenging in the information age, especially for westerners. I look back on all the books I read, and realize that most of it was just entertaining and motivating. But once I found jhana, and this group/material, I threw the stack of commentaries I had still to read into a bag and am taking them back to the Monastery. I honestly don't feel any need for them anymore, and have much more confidence in the suttas and sangha. The confidence and direction which comes with jhana and a skillful sangha is remarkable. Every now and then, I just read over the suttas while saturated--and as others have reported, it makes it much easier to understand the mis-translated, and throw out the garbage (like that women cannot attain enlightenment--hahahaha! That's just laughable).

I look forward to reading your experiences soon. You know the funny thing, is that I had actually touched jhana and saturation a few times before I found my way here. I think most dedicated practitioners can relate to this. Perhaps you can as well?

Let me just say that, from my perspective, we've all come across a unique and powerful gift here with the forum and GWV. Because it has been so for me. Some truly remarkable, inspiring, and confirming things continue to happen on this forum, daily life, and practice. I hope you experience that as well

PS Jhananda, that sure is interesting about you and I in regards to the women enlightenment sutta. It was the first thing I saw when I opened the suttas to where I left off. It was also my first time reading the suttas while saturated. I do not recall reading any mention of the women enlightenment sutta on the forum. I agree with your observations.

Apologies for not using quotes. I have things to do at the same time.

I hope your practice goes well, Peace. Please feel free to post your experiences and questions.