Understanding Dependent Origination

[rougeleader115]

Identity, which is formed by the five aggregates, is what people most often think of as "self."  Meditating deeply into the 8 stages of the religious experience (samadhi), sheds the identity, which is formed by the five aggregates, and brings one to pure consciousness, which is spirit or soul, or bodhi, or whatever term you like.

So what happens when you come back from shedding, do the aggregates still function to form an identity? If not, how can you tell you are still Jeffrey?

No, because you are not an arahant yet.

How will we know if we have reached that level? Was there anything specific for you personally?


I know that you said you do not mind, but thank you again for answering our many questions.

[Michel]

We have established that 'consciousness' or'bodhi' is bare awareness, which, in your own words, is an altered state of consciousness that occurs during meditation where the subject is not aware of anything, but is nonetheless aware, where consciousness does not need an object, nor does it need the senses, nor the mental processes.

Another type of subjective experience is objective consciousness, where the subject is aware of objects, sensations, and thoughts, as opposed to bare awareness (bodhi). What term should we apply to describe this state of objective awareness? Is there a distinction made in the suttas of the various types of consciousness?


The GWV defines 'cognition' partially in terms of 'awareness'. But we have established that consciousness is awareness. Is there a subtle nuance that I'm not getting? See below.

"cognition  n.

1. The mental process or faculty of knowing, including aspects such as awareness, perception, reasoning, and judgment.

2. That which comes to be known, as through perception, reasoning, or intuition; knowledge. [Middle English cognicioun, from Latin cognitia, cognitian-, from cognitus, past participle of cognoscere, to learn : co-, intensive pref.; see CO- + gnoscere, to know—cognitional adj."

How would you define cognition (vinnana) in terms of Dependent Origination?

Why is cognition listed separately by itself in the factors of Dependent Origination? It is after all a component part of the Five Aggregates which are closely related to 'concepts and appearances' (nama-rupa).

[Jhanananda]

So what happens when you come back from shedding, do the aggregates still function to form an identity? If not, how can you tell you are still Jeffrey?

If you live in the moment with a still mind, then there is no identity, this is why people describe the experience in non-dual terms.

How will we know if we have reached that level? Was there anything specific for you personally?

One is an arahant, when one is free of the 10 fetters.  One becomes free of the 10 fetters by saturation in the 8 stages of the religious experience (samadhi).

I know that you said you do not mind, but thank you again for answering our many questions.

I am here to teach.  When there is no one to teach, then there is no reason for me to be here any longer.

We have established that 'consciousness' or'bodhi' is bare awareness, which, in your own words, is an altered state of consciousness that occurs during meditation where the subject is not aware of anything, but is nonetheless aware, where consciousness does not need an object, nor does it need the senses, nor the mental processes.

Another type of subjective experience is objective consciousness, where the subject is aware of objects, sensations, and thoughts, as opposed to bare awareness (bodhi). What term should we apply to describe this state of objective awareness? Is there a distinction made in the suttas of the various types of consciousness?

This is called normal dualistic mind of suffering.

The GWV defines 'cognition' partially in terms of 'awareness'. But we have established that consciousness is awareness. Is there a subtle nuance that I'm not getting? See below.

"cognition  n.

1. The mental process or faculty of knowing, including aspects such as awareness, perception, reasoning, and judgment.

2. That which comes to be known, as through perception, reasoning, or intuition; knowledge. [Middle English cognicioun, from Latin cognitia, cognitian-, from cognitus, past participle of cognoscere, to learn : co-, intensive pref.; see CO- + gnoscere, to know—cognitional adj."

How would you define cognition (vinnana) in terms of Dependent Origination?

[/quote]

Awareness, consciousness makes all of the cognitive processes function.  Without Awareness, consciousness, then one is unconscious.

Why is cognition listed separately by itself in the factors of Dependent Origination? It is after all a component part of the Five Aggregates which are closely related to 'concepts and appearances' (nama-rupa).

This is a good question.  I am just trying to find a cognitive term that is not consciousness that will fit the definition of vinnana.  It seems to me that cognition was reasonable.  Because cognition is a mental process that combines sensing, perception, reasoning, identity, etc. into the mental processes.

[Jhanon]

"Michel: "How will we know if we have reached that level? Was there anything specific for you personally?"

Jhananda: "One is an arahant, when one is free of the 10 fetters.  One becomes free of the 10 fetters by saturation in the 8 stages of the religious experience (samadhi).""


This is also a question I continue to ask. In the sutta's it talks about a knowing that the holy life has been lived, the burden laid down. Or something like that. I want to be able to confirm with an arahant that there is a point where one attains unshakable and complete confidence that one has become am arahant or Buddha.

So in your personal experience, was there a sudden and lasting insight that you were an arahant? Or was it simply a conclusion you arrived at through deduction, such as "well I've been hitting the 8th stage often, and I don't appear to have any fetters, so I guess I'm an arahant?"

I'm interested in the details of your personal moment when you came to the conclusion or knowing that you were an arahant--however that happened.

Great discussion, chaps.

[Jhanananda]

How will we know if we have reached that level? Was there anything specific for you personally?

This is also a question I continue to ask. In the sutta's it talks about a knowing that the holy life has been lived, the burden laid down. Or something like that. I want to be able to confirm with an arahant that there is a point where one attains unshakable and complete confidence that one has become am arahant or Buddha.

So in your personal experience, was there a sudden and lasting insight that you were an arahant? Or was it simply a conclusion you arrived at through deduction, such as "well I've been hitting the 8th stage often, and I don't appear to have any fetters, so I guess I'm an arahant?"

I'm interested in the details of your personal moment when you came to the conclusion or knowing that you were an arahant--however that happened.

Great discussion, chaps.

Due to profound childhood abuse that was specifically targeted at undermining my self confidence it took me decades to develop the confidence that I had indeed found the path to liberation and enlightenment.  Along the way I kept thinking that one day I would find a guru, or mystic, or priest in some religion who would be able to confirm my attainment, and possibly guide me further, but I never met one.

By 1974 I was confident that laying down the burden of worldly attachments, and leading a full-time contemplative life, was liberating to the point that I was free of substance abuse, and other fetters, but I found no way to support myself, so I returned to getting jobs, but I maintained a dedicated contemplative life that consistently produced at least the first three stages of the religious experience (jhana/samadhi); however, I was not fully free of all of the other fetters until about 2000.  By then I also had the self confidence to accept that the world truly is utterly and completely corrupt. So, by definition in the suttas, when one is free of all of the fetters, then one is an arahant.

[Jhanon]

How will we know if we have reached that level? Was there anything specific for you personally?

This is also a question I continue to ask. In the sutta's it talks about a knowing that the holy life has been lived, the burden laid down. Or something like that. I want to be able to confirm with an arahant that there is a point where one attains unshakable and complete confidence that one has become am arahant or Buddha.

So in your personal experience, was there a sudden and lasting insight that you were an arahant? Or was it simply a conclusion you arrived at through deduction, such as "well I've been hitting the 8th stage often, and I don't appear to have any fetters, so I guess I'm an arahant?"

I'm interested in the details of your personal moment when you came to the conclusion or knowing that you were an arahant--however that happened.

Great discussion, chaps.

Due to profound childhood abuse that was specifically targeted at undermining my self confidence it took me decades to develop the confidence that I had indeed found the path to liberation and enlightenment.  Along the way I kept thinking that one day I would find a guru, or mystic, or priest in some religion who would be able to confirm my attainment, and possibly guide me further, but I never met one.

By 1974 I was confident that laying down the burden of worldly attachments, and leading a full-time contemplative life, was liberating to the point that I was free of substance abuse, and other fetters, but I found no way to support myself, so I returned to getting jobs, but I maintained a dedicated contemplative life that consistently produced at least the first three stages of the religious experience (jhana/samadhi); however, I was not fully free of all of the other fetters until about 2000.  By then I also had the self confidence to accept that the world truly is utterly and completely corrupt. So, by definition in the suttas, when one is free of all of the fetters, then one is an arahant.

I can relate, and am sorry about your childhood trauma.

I agree that the world is utterly and completely corrupt, which only propels one more earnestly into the N8P. Lately, things continue to happen in this life where I hear the Buddha's words "I do not quarrel with the world, the world quarrels with me." (or something to that effect). Even those who I've held in high esteem have shown clear signs of delusion and corruption.

So according to your response, at some point you reflected that in 2000 you became free of the ten fetters?

I find it difficult to evaluate this, because it seems some of the fetters rarely make themselves evident unless specific life-situations occur. But perhaps this is another function of the 8 stages of samadhi>? That seems very logical. Like how I become afraid when the white-wall of annihilation appears, or I can feel identity being ripped from me and I become frightened. That would be identity view, or attachment to material existence?

So then it seems if one can smoothly glide through all 8 stages, then one is an arahant? 

Apologies for high-jacking the thread. I merely want to know how one can be sure they have attained arahantship.

[Jhanananda]

I can relate, and am sorry about your childhood trauma.

I agree that the world is utterly and completely corrupt, which only propels one more earnestly into the N8P. Lately, things continue to happen in this life where I hear the Buddha's words "I do not quarrel with the world, the world quarrels with me." (or something to that effect). Even those who I've held in high esteem have shown clear signs of delusion and corruption.

I believe that this is a necessary preparatory stage for taking up the Noble Eightfold Path with the intention of enlightenment in this very lifetime.

So according to your response, at some point you reflected that in 2000 you became free of the ten fetters?

Correct.  It was around March 1st 2000.

I find it difficult to evaluate this, because it seems some of the fetters rarely make themselves evident unless specific life-situations occur. But perhaps this is another function of the 8 stages of samadhi>? That seems very logical. Like how I become afraid when the white-wall of annihilation appears, or I can feel identity being ripped from me and I become frightened. That would be identity view, or attachment to material existence?

More precisely I would call this clinging to your identity, and when you are free of what binds you to identity, then you are free, and in my experience this is the last fetter.

So then it seems if one can smoothly glide through all 8 stages, then one is an arahant? 

Correct.

Apologies for high-jacking the thread. I merely want to know how one can be sure they have attained arahantship.

I do not see this as hijacking the Dependent Origination thread, but exactly on target.

[Jhanon]

Many thanks for explaining further. I hope Michel found this as useful as I did.

[Michel]

Many thanks for explaining further. I hope Michel found this as useful as I did.

Yes, this is a very interesting discussion, Jhanon.  I'm getting all these little pieces of the jigsaw puzzle together, and hopefully the big picture will start to emerge one day.

PS - I really hope you find a monastery somehow. You are so gifted and have great potential.  I wish you the best of luck.

[Michel]

Thank-you so much, Jhananda, for your help in understanding this complex subject of Dependent Origination. I plan to go on a solo retreat shortly for an indefinite period of time. I find posting on the forum distracting. So I like to keep my mind as quiet as possible. But when I'm through, we can continue this discussion on Dependent Origination. Or, perhaps some others can take it from where we've left off.

[Michel]

What happens to a being's five aggregates when they die? Are they effaced?

Does a beings spiritual consciousness take on a new set of different aggregates when conception occurs in the womb?

Why does consciousness seek physical form in a living being? Why does it not remain as pure spiritual consciousness?

[Jhanananda]

What happens to a being's five aggregates when they die? Are they effaced?

The physical 5 aggregates die with the body; however, if any of the fetters remain, then there is an immaterial representation of the 5 aggregates on the immaterial planes, which correlate to the remaining fetters.  There the individual rises to whatever level of the immaterial domains that one's fetters will allow.

Does a beings spiritual consciousness take on a new set of different aggregates when conception occurs in the womb?

Yes.

Why does consciousness seek physical form in a living being?

Craving

Why does it not remain as pure spiritual consciousness?

The fetters.  When one is fully liberated, then one has no need to come back to the material existence.

[Michel]

What happens to a being's five aggregates when they die? Are they effaced?

The physical 5 aggregates die with the body; however, if any of the fetters remain, then there is an immaterial representation of the 5 aggregates on the immaterial planes, which correlate to the remaining fetters.  There the individual rises to whatever level of the immaterial domains that one's fetters will allow.

You haven't mentioned the material domains? Does this mean one is reborn in the immaterial domains after death, and then if the fetters remain, later, they can be reborn in the material domain, if that is their karmic fate?

Does a beings spiritual consciousness take on a new set of different aggregates when conception occurs in the womb?

Yes.

Would an individual's personality and physical characteristics be similar when they are reborn? 

Why does consciousness seek physical form in a living being?

Craving

I'm a little confused here. Up thread you mentioned it was one's aggregates that craves rebirth. If consciousness seeks physical form, then this would imply consciousness craves? Is it consciousness that craves rebirth, or is it the aggregates that crave rebirth, or is it both?

Why does it not remain as pure spiritual consciousness?

The fetters.  When one is fully liberated, then one has no need to come back to the material existence.

Do all beings possess the same undifferentiated spiritual consciousness? (i.e., that your spiritual consciousness is the same as mine.) If this is so, would this be a prime example of non-duality?

[Jhanon]

Many thanks for explaining further. I hope Michel found this as useful as I did.

Yes, this is a very interesting discussion, Jhanon.  I'm getting all these little pieces of the jigsaw puzzle together, and hopefully the big picture will start to emerge one day.

PS - I really hope you find a monastery somehow. You are so gifted and have great potential.  I wish you the best of luck.

Thank you, Michel. That actually helps me grow confidence in making the necessary sacrifices to pursue it.

And by the way, your discussion here has gotten quite intricate and complex. I'm enjoying sitting back and watching the back and forth

[Jhanananda]

You haven't mentioned the material domains? Does this mean one is reborn in the immaterial domains after death, and then if the fetters remain, later, they can be reborn in the material domain, if that is their karmic fate?

I think you mean immaterial domains.  In Buddhism they speak of taking birth on another plane of existence after death.  That is one way to speak of what happens.  I prefer the soul/astral body explanation, because that described better the experience of leaving the body in an OOBE, or after death. So, after death we leave the body and move to some part of the immaterial domains where we reside for a while before taking birth again in another physical body.  What goes on for most people in between lifetimes is dream-like.

Would an individual's personality and physical characteristics be similar when they are reborn? 

There will be a number of similarities psychologically, and possibly even physically, from one lifetime to the next.  I once saw a book about a Spanish mystic from the 19th century, and it had a photograph of the mystic.  The mystic looked just like Michael Hawkins, so it is possible that was one of Michale's previous lifetimes.

I'm a little confused here. Up thread you mentioned it was one's aggregates that craves rebirth. If consciousness seeks physical form, then this would imply consciousness craves? Is it consciousness that craves rebirth, or is it the aggregates that crave rebirth, or is it both?

This makes for an interesting chicken and egg style philosophical argument that could entertain philosophers for a few centuries.  So, let us boil it down to the question, "What craves?'  The identity is made up of the 5 aggregates.  Consciousness animates the identity.  The identity defines itself by its cravings.  When craving and identification ceases, then one become pure consciousness, Budha.

Do all beings possess the same undifferentiated spiritual consciousness? (i.e., that your spiritual consciousness is the same as mine.) If this is so, would this be a prime example of non-duality?

This makes for another interesting chicken and egg style philosophical argument that could entertain philosophers for a few centuries.  At the point of the 8th samadhi, one becomes everything, thus "all beings possess the same undifferentiated spiritual consciousness."There are seven non-dual stages before that.  There is a saying in Advaita, "Atman es Brahman."  It means "soul, is god."