Understanding Dependent Origination

[Michel]

This is all very fascinating to say the least, Jhananda. I thought about what you've said all day. I had a hard time meditating today, the mind went into overdrive on this topic. It just wouldn't shut up.

The physical 5 aggregates die with the body; however, if any of the fetters remain, then there is an immaterial representation of the 5 aggregates on the immaterial planes, which correlate to the remaining fetters.  There the individual rises to whatever level of the immaterial domains that one's fetters will allow.

...  In Buddhism they speak of taking birth on another plane of existence after death.  That is one way to speak of what happens.  I prefer the soul/astral body explanation, because that described better the experience of leaving the body in an OOBE, or after death. So, after death we leave the body and move to some part of the immaterial domains where we reside for a while before taking birth again in another physical body.  What goes on for most people in between lifetimes is dream-like.

Okay, let's say I die. My aggregates are effaced. I am a disembodied spirit floating about in a dream-like state in the immaterial domain. Let us also say that in my immediate prior life I mananged to eliminate the first three fetters: 1) belief that my aggregates constituted my self-identity, 2) doubt about the teachings, 3) attachment to rites and rituals.

Let's see if I understand correctly. Could we say that there is an "imprint" of what were "my former aggregates," and remaining fetters, existing in the immaterial domain?

Could we also say that it is the immaterial spirit body that is imprinted with an image of the former aggregates and remaining fetters?

Would the spirit body crave rebirth? But how could it crave if the aggregates are effaced?

I'm not sure if this is a good question? It may not make sense. I trying to get at something... If one has eliminated the first fetter of belief that the aggregates constitute self-identity, then how can there be craving if there is no self-identity?

Would an individual's personality and physical characteristics be similar when they are reborn? 

There will be a number of similarities psychologically, and possibly even physically, from one lifetime to the next.  I once saw a book about a Spanish mystic from the 19th century, and it had a photograph of the mystic.  The mystic looked just like Michael Hawkins, so it is possible that was one of Michael's previous lifetimes.

Fascinating.  But he is not the same identical person? His aggregates have changed over time.

This makes for an interesting chicken and egg style philosophical argument that could entertain philosophers for a few centuries.  So, let us boil it down to the question, "What craves?'  The identity is made up of the 5 aggregates.  Consciousness animates the identity.  The identity defines itself by its cravings.  When craving and identification ceases, then one become pure consciousness, Budha.

Would our immaterial spirit body be capable of having volitional choice as to whom it chooses to have as mother? Let's say it sees an attractive, intelligent woman with all kinds of desirable qualities, would it not hang around her waiting to enter her womb during conception?

Do all beings possess the same undifferentiated spiritual consciousness? (i.e., that your spiritual consciousness is the same as mine.) If this is so, would this be a prime example of non-duality?

This makes for another interesting chicken and egg style philosophical argument that could entertain philosophers for a few centuries.  At the point of the 8th samadhi, one becomes everything, thus "all beings possess the same undifferentiated spiritual consciousness."There are seven non-dual stages before that.  There is a saying in Advaita, "Atman es Brahman."  It means "soul, is god."

Fascinating stuff.

Those fetters and the self-identity view of the aggregates must be overcome.

Was John Lennon right when he said, "You are me, and I am you. Come together, right now, over me"?

[Jhanananda]

This is all very fascinating to say the least, Jhananda. I thought about what you've said all day. I had a hard time meditating today, the mind went into overdrive on this topic. It just wouldn't shut up.

Sorry to hear that this topic caused some ripples in your mind-stream.  It will settle down again.

Okay, let's say I die. My aggregates are effaced. I am a disembodied spirit floating about in a dream-like state in the immaterial domain. Let us also say that in my immediate prior life I mananged to eliminate the first three fetters: 1) belief that my aggregates constituted my self-identity, 2) doubt about the teachings, 3) attachment to rites and rituals.

Let's see if I understand correctly. Could we say that there is an "imprint" of what were "my former aggregates," and remaining fetters, existing in the immaterial domain?

That is reasonable.

Could we also say that it is the immaterial spirit body that is imprinted with an image of the former aggregates and remaining fetters?

This is also reasonable.

Would the spirit body crave rebirth? But how could it crave if the aggregates are effaced?

It is the imprint, the habit, the karma.

I'm not sure if this is a good question? It may not make sense. I trying to get at something... If one has eliminated the first fetter of belief that the aggregates constitute self-identity, then how can there be craving if there is no self-identity?

Just because you have eradicated some of your belief systems does not mean that you are without identity.  The identity has just become more subtle.

Fascinating.  But he is not the same identical person? His aggregates have changed over time.

Correct.

Would our immaterial spirit body be capable of having volitional choice as to whom it chooses to have as mother? Let's say it sees an attractive, intelligent woman with all kinds of desirable qualities, would it not hang around her waiting to enter her womb during conception?

If craving is what drives you to rebirth, then yes.  If you are already an arahat taking birth for the benefit of others, then you take what you can get, because the choices are limited.

Fascinating stuff.

Those fetters and the self-identity view of the aggregates must be overcome.

Was John Lennon right when he said, "You are me, and I am you. Come together, right now, over me"?

John Lennon was trying, as so many others are.

[Michel]

Today I was reading the Māgandiya sutta MN75, and I thought it showed nicely how the Five Aggregates fit into Dependent Origination.

23...“Māgandiya, suppose there was a man born blind who could not see dark and light forms … or the sun and moon. He might hear a man with good eyesight saying: ‘Good indeed, sirs, is a white cloth, beautiful, spotless, and clean!’ and he would go in search of a white cloth. Then a man would cheat him with a dirty soiled garment thus: ‘Good man, here is a white cloth for you, beautiful, spotless, and clean.’ And he would accept it and put it on. Then his friends and companions, his kinsmen and relatives, would bring a physician to treat him. The physician would make medicine—emetics and purgatives, ointments and counter-ointments and nasal treatment—and by means of that medicine the man’s vision would arise and be purified. Together with the arising of his vision, his desire and liking for that dirty soiled garment would be abandoned; then he might burn with indignation and enmity towards that man and might think that he ought to be killed thus: ‘Indeed, I have long been tricked, cheated, and defrauded by this man with this dirty soiled garment when he told me: “Good man, here is a white cloth for you, beautiful, spotless, and clean.”’

 24. “So too, Māgandiya, if  I were to teach you the Dhamma thus: ‘This is that health, this is that Nibbāna,’ you might know health and see Nibbāna. Together with the arising of your vision, your desire and lust for the five aggregates affected by clinging might be abandoned. Then perhaps you might think: ‘Indeed, I have long been tricked, cheated, and defrauded by this mind. For when clinging, I have been clinging just to material form, I have been clinging just to feeling [sensations], I have been clinging just to perception, I have been clinging just to [mental] formations, I have been clinging just to consciousness [cognition]. With my clinging as condition, being [comes to be]; with being as condition, birth; with birth as condition, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.’

[Jhanananda]

Thanks-you Michel for posting the sutta quote for us to find wisdom, and right guidance toward liberation and enlightenment in this very lifetime.  If we crave for the objects of the senses, then we lose sight of the charisms; whereas, if we lose craving for the senses, then we gain the bliss, joy and ecstasy of the charisms.

[Michel]

Meanwhile, back here on earth...

I'm deep into reading the Book of Causation in the Samyutta Nikaya and came across this sutta. It describes what qualities and knowledges a stream-winner possesses. It also mentions dependent origination as a requisite knowledge for stream-entry. You can skip to my summary below after the sutta.

V. The Householder

41 (1) Five Fearful Animosities (1)
At Savatthi. Then the householder Anathapindika approached
the Blessed One, paid homage to him, and sat down to one side.
The Blessed One then said to him:

"Householder, when five fearful animosities have subsided in
a noble disciple, and he possesses the four factors of streamentry,
and he has clearly seen and thoroughly penetrated with
wisdom the noble method, if he wishes he could by himself
declare of himself: 'I am one finished with hell, finished with the
animal realm, finished with the domain of ghosts, finished with
the plane of misery, the bad destinations, the nether world. I am
a stream-enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in
destiny, with enlightenment as my destination.'1l8

"What are the five fearful animosities that have subsided?
Householder, one who destroys life engenders, on account of
such behaviour, fearful animosity pertaining to the present life
and fearful animosity pertaining to the future life, and he experiences
mental pain and displeasure."g Thus for one who abstains
from destroying life, this fearful animosity has subsided.
"One who takes what is not given .. . [69] . . . who engages in
sexual misconduct . . . who speaks falsely . . . who indulges in wine,
liquor, and intoxicants that are a basis for negligence engenders.
on account of such behaviour, fearful animosity pertaining to the
present life and fearful animosity pertaining to the future life,
and he experiences mental pain and displeasure. Thus for one
who abstains from wine, liquor, and intoxicants that are a basis
for negligence, this fearful animosity has subsided.

"These are the five fearful animosities that have subsided.

"What are the four factors of stream-entry that he possesses?l20
Here, householder, the noble disciple possesses confirmed confidence
in the Buddha thus: 'The Blessed One is an arahant, perfectly
enlightened, accomplished in true knowledge and conduct,
fortunate, knower of the world, unsurpassed leader of persons to
be tamed, teacher of devas and humans, the Enlightened One,
the Blessed One.'

"He possesses confirmed confidence in the Dhamma thus: 'The
Dhamrna is well expounded by the Blessed One, directly visible,
immediate, inviting one to come and see, applicable, to be personally
experienced by the wise.'

"He possesses confirmed confidence in the Sangha thus: 'The
Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples is practising the good way,
practising the straight way, practising the true way, practising
the proper way; that is, the four pairs of persons, the eight types
of individuals-this [70] Sarigha of the Blessed One's disciples is
worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy
of reverential salutation, the unsurpassed field of merit for
the world.'

"He possesses the virtues dear to the noble ones-unbroken,
untorn, unblemished, unmottled, freeing, praised by the wise,
ungrasped, leading to concentration.121

"These are the four factors of stream-entry that he possesses.

"And what is the noble method that he has clearly seen and
thoroughly penetrated with wisdom?l22 Here, householder, the
noble disciple attends closely and carefully to dependent origination
itself thus: 'When this exists, that comes to be; with the arising
of this, that arises. When this does not exist, that does not come to
be; with the cessation of this, that ceases. That is, with ignorance as
condition, volitional formations [come to be]; with volitional formations
as condition, consciousness.. . . Such is the origin of this
whole mass of suffering. But with the remainderless fading away
and cessation of ignorance comes cessation of volitional formations;
with the cessation of volitional formations, cessation of consciousness..
.. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.'

This is the noble method that he has clearly seen and thoroughly
penetrated with wisdom.

"When, householder, these five fearful animosities have subsided
in a noble disciple, and he possesses these four factors of
stream-entry, and he has clearly seen and thoroughly penetrated
with wisdom this noble method, if he wishes he could by himself
declare of himself: 'I am one finished with hell, finished with the
animal realm, finished with the domain of ghosts, finished with
the plane of misery, the bad destinations, the nether world. I am
a stream-enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in
destiny, with enlightenment as my destination."' SN 12:41

In summary, the Stream Winner is a noble person who:

1. Abstains from the  five fearful animosities (the five precepts):

- Killing
- Stealing
- Sexual misconduct
- False speech
- Intoxicants

2. Possesses the four factors of stream-entry:

- Confidence in the Buddha
- Confidence in the Dhamma
- Confidence in the Sangha
- Possesses virtues dear to the Noble Ones. (the five precepts above)

3. Has a thorough understanding of dependent origination (referred to as "the noble method" in the sutta; the noble method also refers to the N8P, according to Bhikkhu Bodhi)

This is one way of describing a stream winner.

The other way of defining a stream winner, commonly found in the suttas, is one who has overcome the first three fetters. Perhaps there are other ways of defining stream-entry?

Did any of you find that you possessed a full understanding of dependent origination when you became stream-winners? Was this an intellectual type of understanding or what? How did you arrive at this understanding?

[Jhanananda]

Good to hear from you, Michel.  Thank-you for the excellent and timely sutta quote.  Your analysis of it seemed very accurate to me.  I agree the noble method also refers to the N8P.  However, the sangha does not seem to be a sangha any more.  So, a new sangha has to form, which is guided by an enlightened understanding of the dhamma.  Not by a sangha who wears the robes only, and pretends to be enlightened, while marginalizing those who have acquired the superior fruit of attainment (maha-phala) by correctly following the Noble Eightfold Path.

[Michel]

Jhananda, did you find that you possessed a full understanding of dependent origination when you became stream-winner? Was this an intellectual type of understanding or was it intuitive? How did you arrive at this understanding?

[Alexander]

Michel here are two passages you may want to read about streamwinners, however they are from the Gurdjieff tradition outside of Buddhism. That said you will find they are referring to the same phenomenon, but the language is very different.

Man no. 4 is not born as such. He is a product of school culture. He differs from man no. 1, no. 2, and no. 3 by his knowledge of himself, by his understanding of his position, and, as it is expressed technically, by his having acquired a permanent center of gravity. The last means that the idea of acquiring unity, consciousness, permanent "I," and will - that is, the idea of his development - has already become for him more important than his other interests.

This is from P. D. Ouspensky's book The Psychology of Man's Possible Evolution, AKA Six Psychological Lectures. Since this book is rare here is a pdf of it that I have. It is from the Second Lecture.

"Man number four is not born ready-made. He is born one, two, or three, and becomes four only as a result of efforts of a definite character. Man number four is always the product of school work. He can neither be born, nor develop accidentally or as the result of ordinary influences of bringing up, education, and so on. Man number four already stands on a different level to man number one, two, and three; he has a permanent center of gravity which consists in his ideas, in his valuation of the work, and in his relation to the school. In addition his psychic centers have already begun to be balanced; one center in him cannot have such a preponderance over others as is the case with people of the first three categories. He already begins to know himself and begins to know whither he is going.

This is from his other book, Fragments of an Unknown Teaching.

To help explain these passages it would help to explain some context.

First, G. I. Gurdjieff took our inner life as a division into the Mind, Emotions, and Body. The ordinary human being is in a dysfunctional state, because either the Mind, Emotions, or Body is in control of the other two. This is what Man no. 1, 2, and 3 refers to. As we enter into the spiritual life, these 3 faculties are put in order; we develop self-awareness and become whole individuals. If we are whole, then we are aware of all these faculties of ourselves, and all our past experiences. After this has happened, our spiritual development proper begins. The four noble ones of Buddhism have their equivalent in Gurdjieff's teaching. He refers to them as:

Man no 4 = streamwinner
Man no 5 = once-returner
Man no 6 = nonreturner
Man no 7 = arahant

I explored this topic in another post here.

[Michel]

Thank-you, Alexander, for introducing me to Gurdjieff and P. D. Ouspensky. My antivirus software advises me not to download the PDF book. However, Ouspensky's book is available from Amazon in Kindle or book format:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Psychology-Mans-Possible-Evolution/dp/0394719433/ref=tmm_pap_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1403986526&sr=8-1

I read some reviews of the book and certainly Ouspensky's work looks very interesting. So I'll buy the Kindle edition for my PC. I'll read the lecture that you recommended.

The interesting thing about some of these mystic teachers is that they are saying the same thing but using different terminology.

PS - I have a little question for you: Did you find that you possessed a full understanding of dependent origination when you a became stream-winner? Was this an intellectual type of understanding or was it intuitive? How did you arrive at this understanding?

[Alexander]

Thank-you, Alexander, for introducing me to Gurdjieff and P. D. Ouspensky. My antivirus software advises me not to download the PDF book. However, Ouspensky's book is available from Amazon in Kindle or book format:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Psychology-Mans-Possible-Evolution/dp/0394719433/ref=tmm_pap_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1403986526&sr=8-1

I read some reviews of the book and certainly Ouspensky's work looks very interesting. So I'll buy the Kindle edition for my PC. I'll read the lecture that you recommended.

The interesting thing about some of these mystic teachers is that they are saying the same thing but using different terminology.

PS - I have a little question for you: Did you find that you possessed a full understanding of dependent origination when you a became stream-winner? Was this an intellectual type of understanding or was it intuitive? How did you arrive at this understanding?

I thought about which upload site I should use to send you that. I assume you do not have adblocker, so you're clicking one of the fake download buttons. That is a trouble of zippyshare. However the pdf is there if you want a free copy.

I mentioned in the conversation with fqmorris yesterday, that for a long time I was an individual like any other. But, I intuited that I was somehow different. I assume that at stage I was already rid of the 3 lower fetters. It was only later when I developed a theoretical understanding of what a streamwinner was.

[Michel]

Continuing our study of dependent origination:

I just finished reading the Book of Causation in the Samyutta Nikaya and there's is no clear explanation of what the sequential factors of dependent origination are. So how can you hope to understand what dependent origination is from the suttas. I've read many commentaries on various theories of dependent origination and they're all over the map. They have theories like dependent origination happening over a period of three lives, etc.

So, we have the factors of the sequence in forward order:

Cognition  < >  Concepts and Appearances  >  Sensory Stimulation  >  Sensation  >  Craving  >  Clinging  >  Becoming  >  Birth  >  Aging & Death > Suffering

What is it that is becoming, being born and that is aging and dying? Is it the ego, or is it a living being as encompassed in the 5 aggregates?  This is what the suttas fail to make clear.

Jhananda, could you give us an example of dependent origination in action. How about something like what happens when a guy sees a lovely gal walking by and he lusts for her. Let's say he makes a pass at her and she snubs him which leads to his suffering. Could you go through each of the factors of the sequence showing how they map on and lead to the guy's suffering?

[Jhanananda]

Continuing our study of dependent origination:

I just finished reading the Book of Causation in the Samyutta Nikaya and there's is no clear explanation of what the sequential factors of dependent origination are. So how can you hope to understand what dependent origination is from the suttas.

To me your conflict here refers more to how poorly the suttas have been translated, than the suttas do not explain dependent origination properly.  I recommend that you return to my version of the mahanidana sutta

I've read many commentaries on various theories of dependent origination and they're all over the map. They have theories like dependent origination happening over a period of three lives, etc.

So, we have the factors of the sequence in forward order:

Cognition  < >  Concepts and Appearances  >  Sensory Stimulation  >  Sensation  >  Craving  >  Clinging  >  Becoming  >  Birth  >  Aging & Death > Suffering

Your conflict here seems to be becoming circular.  I recommend that you return to the beginning of this thread, and read through it again, and also reexamine my essay on Dependent Origination.

What is it that is becoming, being born and that is aging and dying? Is it the ego, or is it a living being as encompassed in the 5 aggregates?  This is what the suttas fail to make clear.

My take on Dependent Origination is the 5 aggregates was Siddhartha Gautama's attempt to describe identity.  It is identity that reincarnates into new bodies.

Jhananda, could you give us an example of dependent origination in action. How about something like what happens when a guy sees a lovely gal walking by and he lusts for her. Let's say he makes a pass at her and she snubs him which leads to his suffering. Could you go through each of the factors of the sequence showing how they map on and lead to the guy's suffering?

At the point that the guy allows himself to lust he has entered craving, which leads to suffering as per the 4 Noble Truths.  The solution to the 4 Noble Truths is mastering the 4th jhana consistently every time one meditates, and one meditates thus several times a day.  At that point the "lovely gal walking by" is no different than a youthful cow, deer, or rabbit hopping/walking by.  We can enjoy the beauty of nature without lusting for it.

[Michel]

The five aggregates define identity.  Identity is what craves. Identity is ego...

The physical 5 aggregates die with the body; however, if any of the fetters remain, then there is an immaterial representation of the 5 aggregates on the immaterial planes, which correlate to the remaining fetters.  There the individual rises to whatever level of the immaterial domains that one's fetters will allow.

I've reread everything as you suggested. I should of done this before. I apologize. It's worth rereading.

D.O. describes why we are reborn because, and as you say, and I paraphrase from the above quote, "if there are any remaining fetters they leave an immaterial representation of our 5 aggregates on the immaterial plane which correlate to the remaining fetters." So, the fetter of craving for a material or an immaterial birth is why we are reborn into a new set of the 5 aggregates.

Now here is what is not clear to me. Where exactly in the sequence of factors of D.O. does rebirth occur? We could the change the name of "Birth" in the sequence to "Rebirth" and then the whole sequence would make sense to me.

For example:

Cognition  < >  Concepts and Appearances  >  Sensory Stimulation  >  Sensation  >  Craving  >  Clinging  >  Becoming  >  Rebirth  >  Aging & Death > Suffering

[Jhanananda]

Now here is what is not clear to me. Where exactly in the sequence of factors of D.O. does rebirth occur? We could the change the name of "Birth" in the sequence to "Rebirth" and then the whole sequence would make sense to me.

If there is any craving, then there is rebirth.  Get to the 4th jhana, and you are free of craving.

[Michel]

But does the sequence make any sense when I change 'Birth' to 'Rebirth?'