Author Topic: Other Mystics  (Read 9824 times)

rougeleader115

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Other Mystics
« on: January 30, 2014, 03:00:01 AM »
I was trying to research some other mystics that would be interesting to read. I have read a lot from Nisargadatta, and some from the Buddha and Patanjali, mainly from the translations available from Jhanananda, but not many others.  I wanted to know if Ramakrishna is on the list of mystics worth investigating? I have read random pages and such from him and his expression seems true and worth reading, but I don't want to make that assumption. If not, there are plenty others I see on the GWV website that I can look into.

http://www.thesufi.com/rumi_masnavi.pdf - I have been enjoying this very much as well, though I have not read enough to say for certain.

Jhanon

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Re: Other Mystics
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2014, 05:55:07 AM »
I've seen some Theresa of Avila quotes from Jhananda which suggests the book to be more accessible than Rumi or St. John's books. The Interior Castle is next on my list. I've not any information about Ramakrishna.

Jhanananda

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Re: Other Mystics
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2014, 01:18:26 PM »
I was trying to research some other mystics that would be interesting to read. I have read a lot from Nisargadatta, and some from the Buddha and Patanjali, mainly from the translations available from Jhanananda, but not many others.  I wanted to know if Ramakrishna is on the list of mystics worth investigating? I have read random pages and such from him and his expression seems true and worth reading, but I don't want to make that assumption. If not, there are plenty others I see on the GWV website that I can look into.

http://www.thesufi.com/rumi_masnavi.pdf - I have been enjoying this very much as well, though I have not read enough to say for certain.
There are many people in history who have a reputation for being mystics, saints and prophets, etc.  I found most of them did not deserve their acquired reputation.  If we check the background of such people, we find that they came from a wealthy family and the family built the reputation of the saint to improve their family reputation.  So, read widely for inspiration, but always keep what you have learned from the core mystics on the GWV list as representing an authentic mystic.  When you find the writing of someone that seems to match the characteristics of the GWV's list of core mystics, then bringing it up with the GWV community (sangha), others will read the same material, then some discussion will emerge, and possibly others will benefit from your choice, or at least from the discussion as to what makes a mystic.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 01:33:48 AM by Jhanananda »
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Alexander

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Re: Other Mystics
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2014, 05:23:48 PM »
I tried reading The Inner Castle by bringing Jeffrey's thesis about the 8 stages of samadhi to it. I had trouble making a 1:1 ratio. But I assume that the book must be the work of a fully perfected arahant, who is recounting all the different states of introversion.

The Dark Night of the Soul explains the two spiritual crises, the Night of Sense and the Night of Spirit, and it's been my preference to use those two concepts of John of the Cross to judge the legitimacy of anyone claiming to be a mystic or yogi.

Rumi's poems I assume are the works of someone in the unitive life. You can see, for example, references in his works to the paradox of annihilation and resurrection for the mystic. That implies he's been through the advanced crises of the mystic life, and has carried the mystic quest through to the end.

Another person I've been reading is Evelyn Underhill, who wrote the book Mysticism, and who has a very unique breakdown of the stages of the mystic life. In her model she divides it into these steps: Awakening, Purgation, Illumination, the Dark Night of the Soul, and the Unitive Life.

So to get very advanced knowledge about these subjects, I find it's useful to conflate the different authors' concepts. So to conflate Underhill with Jeffrey or John of the Cross we could say: Purgation = Night of Sense, Illumination = Jhanas 1 + 2, Dark Night of the Soul = Night of Spirit, Unitive Life = Jhanas 3+, etc.
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rougeleader115

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Re: Other Mystics
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2014, 11:06:20 PM »

Rumi's poems I assume are the works of someone in the unitive life. You can see, for example, references in his works to the paradox of annihilation and resurrection for the mystic. That implies he's been through the advanced crises of the mystic life, and has carried the mystic quest through to the end.


This is among my favorite parts about reading the works of mystics. The expressions of annihilation and complete communion with the divine give me a lot of inspiration to stay dedicated. The advanced crises of course still feel like a near impossible barrier for me, but at least there are words from those who have made it.

Jhanon

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Re: Other Mystics
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2014, 01:34:28 AM »
This is among my favorite parts about reading the works of mystics. The expressions of annihilation and complete communion with the divine give me a lot of inspiration to stay dedicated. The advanced crises of course still feel like a near impossible barrier for me, but at least there are words from those who have made it.

I agree, Rougeleader. I wonder what you mean by "The advanced crises of course still feel like a near impossible barrier for me, but at least there are words from those who have made it.?"

For me, I immediately think about how many times in samadhi I've felt I was being ripped away or annihilated, but I cowered in fear, despite the fact I wanted nothing more.

Jhanananda

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Re: Other Mystics
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2014, 02:48:52 AM »
It is good to receive your comments, aglorincz, rougeleader115 and Jhanon.  Finding dynamic dialog on the topic of mysticism I find inspiring; whereas, the insipid, and banal dialog on other contemplative forums bores me to tears.

I tried reading The Inner Castle by bringing Jeffrey's thesis about the 8 stages of samadhi to it. I had trouble making a 1:1 ratio. But I assume that the book must be the work of a fully perfected arahant, who is recounting all the different states of introversion.

I do not know if Teresa of Avila was a "fully perfected arahant;" however, she certainly got that there are 8 stages of the religious experience, she just rejected the lowest level, because it is represented by simple devotion.  The way to understand Teresa of Avila's writing is to understand that she was a Jewish convert (converso) to Christianity, and her grand father had been burned at the stake for not being Christian enough.  She was also under house arrest by the Inquisition, and they burned her books as fast as she could write them; so she wrote code. 

The code that Teresa of Avila used was: I am a Jewish convert (converso) to Christianity; and my grand father was burned at the stake for not being Christian enough; and  I am under house arrest by the Inquisition; and they are burning my books as fast as I can write them; so I am going to pretend I am a ditzy, female devotee of Jesus; so 90% of what I write will be nonsense, but a tinny percentage will be wisdom; you, the future mystics, will have to read between the lines and figure it out on your own.  That means only about 1 paragraph in every chapter of Teresa of Avila's writing is worth paying attention to.  Here is one:

Quote from: The Interior Castle, St. Teresa of Avila,
Pg 93)
“As I write this, by the way, I can’t help but wonder what’s going on inside my own head.  Those noises I told you about in the beginning are getting so loud that it’s almost impossible for me to obey the order to write this. It sounds like there are a multitude of rushing rivers inside my head, their waters cascading downward, surrounded by many little birds and other whistling sounds.  This is all unfolding not in the ears but the upper part of the head, where they say the higher part of the soul resides.  I have spent long periods in these regions.  The spirit seems to push its way upward with great power and speed…all of this turmoil doe not hinder my prayer or interfere with what I am trying to say.  Instead, my soul is whole within its quietude, its love, its longing, and its clarity of consciousness.”
translation and introduction by Mirabai Star. Riverhead Books, Published by the Berkley Publishing Group a division of Penguin Group USA Inc. 375 Hudson Street, New York NY 10014, 2003

The Dark Night of the Soul explains the two spiritual crises, the Night of Sense and the Night of Spirit, and it's been my preference to use those two concepts of John of the Cross to judge the legitimacy of anyone claiming to be a mystic or yogi.

The other thing to get about Teresa of Ávila and John of the Cross, is Teresa of Ávila lived 28 March 1515 – 4 October 1582, which means she was born only 23 years after the reconquest of Spain.  After the reconquest of Spain all Jews and Muslim were allowed to leave Spain safely.  If they wanted to stay, then they had to convert to Christianity, or be burned at the stake. 

John of the Cross, lived 1542 to – 14 December 1591, so he was 27 years younger than Teresa of Ávila.  He was a Moreno, which means he was a Muslim of African decent, and he had been raised in an orphanage, which means his family either abandoned him, or were all burned at the stake.  He was sent to the Christian seminary to become a priest by an anonymous supporter; who was most probably Teresa of Ávila, who needed a priest to officiate, and validate, her chain of convents, which were essentially havens for Jewish converts to Christianity under the Inquisition.  Essentially families with some wealth protected themselves by funding Teresa of Ávila's convents, and they sent one daughter into the convents to protect the whole family.  After all, a good Christian family has at least one daughter in a convent.

Rumi's poems I assume are the works of someone in the unitive life. You can see, for example, references in his works to the paradox of annihilation and resurrection for the mystic. That implies he's been through the advanced crises of the mystic life, and has carried the mystic quest through to the end.

Another person I've been reading is Evelyn Underhill, who wrote the book Mysticism, and who has a very unique breakdown of the stages of the mystic life. In her model she divides it into these steps: Awakening, Purgation, Illumination, the Dark Night of the Soul, and the Unitive Life.

So to get very advanced knowledge about these subjects, I find it's useful to conflate the different authors' concepts. So to conflate Underhill with Jeffrey or John of the Cross we could say: Purgation = Night of Sense, Illumination = Jhanas 1 + 2, Dark Night of the Soul = Night of Spirit, Unitive Life = Jhanas 3+, etc.

While working on my degree in Anthropology at the University of Arizona, I took as many classes in mysticism as they offered, and they offered a wide selection. So, I deeply read Evelyn Underhill and Gershom Scholem in spades.  I found neither had any idea what so ever regarding mysticism.  They were just scholars, so they were more wrong about it than they were right; however, I found a small percentage of the mystics they wrote about were the real deal.

Ibn ʿArabī (Arabic: ابن عربي‎) (July 28, 1165 – November 10, 1240) was an Arab Andalusian Sufi mystic and philosopher.[1][original research?] He is renowned by some practitioners of Sufism as "the greatest master"[2] and also as a genuine saint, was one of the Sufi mystics that Underhill wrote about.  He happened to write about 8 stages of annihilation (fhana).  It sounded like the 8 stages of samadhi to me. 

Under Gershom Scholem I was exposed to another Andalusian mystic, a Jew, Moses de León, the author of the Zohar.  I did not find him of interest.  However, both Teresa of Avila and John of he Cross were Spaniards; therefore, it is reasonable to consider that they were influenced by both Ibn ʿArabī and Moses de León. Under Islam, which ruled over Spain, North Africa, the middle east and India at the time, it is reasonable to consider that both Ibn ʿArabī and Moses de León were exposed to the Pali Canon.
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Jhanon

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Re: Other Mystics
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2014, 03:16:21 AM »
Interesting what you say about Teresa writing in code by pretending to be a ditzy girl. I was reading the beginning of the Interior Castle earlier today, and I kept commenting to my partner about how silly some of the things she was saying were. At one point, she says something like "A clever man can easily perfect (this knowledge), while women have dull wits and need every help they can get." I laughed out loud and said "Why would she say that?"

Now, it seems, it makes sense. It's such a joy to see these works through your eyes, Jhananda. So far, I have to agree that one must find the easter eggs of wisdom in her works. Oh how I appreciate the idea that she mocked and outwitted her persecutors by pretending to be ditzy.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 03:19:10 AM by Jhanon »

Alexander

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Re: Other Mystics
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2014, 04:45:13 AM »
While working on my degree in Anthropology at the University of Arizona, I took as many classes in mysticism as they offered, and they offered a wide selection. So, I deeply read Evelyn Underhill and Gershom Scholem in spades.  I found neither had any idea what so ever regarding mysticism.  They were just scholars, so they were more wrong about it than they were right; however, I found a small percentage of the mystics they wrote about were the real deal.

You should give reading Underhill another try, at least her key work, Mysticism. (It's online.) I don't think it's possible to write a book that refined without direct experience - i.e., being a mystic herself.
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Jhanananda

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Re: Other Mystics
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2014, 12:28:16 PM »
Interesting what you say about Teresa writing in code by pretending to be a ditzy girl. I was reading the beginning of the Interior Castle earlier today, and I kept commenting to my partner about how silly some of the things she was saying were. At one point, she says something like "A clever man can easily perfect (this knowledge), while women have dull wits and need every help they can get." I laughed out loud and said "Why would she say that?"

Now you know

Now, it seems, it makes sense. It's such a joy to see these works through your eyes, Jhananda. So far, I have to agree that one must find the easter eggs of wisdom in her works. Oh how I appreciate the idea that she mocked and outwitted her persecutors by pretending to be ditzy.

I am glad to be of help to other mystics.

While working on my degree in Anthropology at the University of Arizona, I took as many classes in mysticism as they offered, and they offered a wide selection. So, I deeply read Evelyn Underhill and Gershom Scholem in spades.  I found neither had any idea what so ever regarding mysticism.  They were just scholars, so they were more wrong about it than they were right; however, I found a small percentage of the mystics they wrote about were the real deal.

You should give reading Underhill another try, at least her key work, Mysticism. (It's online.) I don't think it's possible to write a book that refined without direct experience - i.e., being a mystic herself.

I downloaded the book, but it is doubtful that I will find wisdom from someone who was not a mystic.  I found neither Evelyn Underhill, nor Gershom Scholem, nor William James, nor Madam Blavatsky, nor Henry Steel Olcott new what mysticism and the religious experience was about.
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Alexander

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Re: Other Mystics
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2014, 06:53:59 PM »
I downloaded the book, but it is doubtful that I will find wisdom from someone who was not a mystic.  I found neither Evelyn Underhill, nor Gershom Scholem, nor William James, nor Madam Blavatsky, nor Henry Steel Olcott new what mysticism and the religious experience was about.

Well, I would agree that none of the others listed are mystics. But, I don't think you've discerned Underhill properly. What books by her have you read?
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rougeleader115

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Re: Other Mystics
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2014, 04:45:39 PM »

I agree, Rougeleader. I wonder what you mean by "The advanced crises of course still feel like a near impossible barrier for me, but at least there are words from those who have made it.?"

For me, I immediately think about how many times in samadhi I've felt I was being ripped away or annihilated, but I cowered in fear, despite the fact I wanted nothing more.

This is pretty much the indicator for me that I am not prepared for the deeper side of annihilation. I have had one opportunity with an annihilating light and spent weeks in 2013 running from overwhelming bliss, so I lost the confidence I had to be wiped away. But I still cannot run from the contemplative life altogether because of the constant reminder of the hellish cycle we are in keep pulling me back to work on my fears. That and I have only ever felt fulfillment and peace like "home" during one of these experiences. So when I look at it, I just see that there is a lot of letting go that I still need to traverse before I can handle the kinds of things I have seen described here by Jhanananda and others.

Jhanon

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Re: Other Mystics
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2014, 06:03:36 AM »

I agree, Rougeleader. I wonder what you mean by "The advanced crises of course still feel like a near impossible barrier for me, but at least there are words from those who have made it.?"

For me, I immediately think about how many times in samadhi I've felt I was being ripped away or annihilated, but I cowered in fear, despite the fact I wanted nothing more.

This is pretty much the indicator for me that I am not prepared for the deeper side of annihilation. I have had one opportunity with an annihilating light and spent weeks in 2013 running from overwhelming bliss, so I lost the confidence I had to be wiped away. But I still cannot run from the contemplative life altogether because of the constant reminder of the hellish cycle we are in keep pulling me back to work on my fears. That and I have only ever felt fulfillment and peace like "home" during one of these experiences. So when I look at it, I just see that there is a lot of letting go that I still need to traverse before I can handle the kinds of things I have seen described here by Jhanananda and others.

Word. I remember one of the only times I successfully accessed the intense kundalini for a minute or two, I was on a high for about 3 days afterward. But the first 10 minutes afterward were really awesome. I remember thinking how it was more desirable than all the peak highs of every drug and sexual act at the same time multiplied by 100. LOL. I actually told my Mom that. She was the first person I called. Hahahahaha. I suppose my Mum is pretty cool.

I find, in my experience, that the annihilating and intense experiences have only come when I had the luxury to make the practice number one priority for most, or all of the day(s). But even before I knew how to meditate well, and I was just trying to be "present" all the time, I somehow kept accessing it. Strange.

Alexander

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Re: Other Mystics
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2014, 05:44:03 PM »
I remember thinking how it was more desirable than all the peak highs of every drug and sexual act at the same time multiplied by 100. LOL. I actually told my Mom that. She was the first person I called. Hahahahaha. I suppose my Mum is pretty cool.

That's strange. Is your mother a Noble Person? Otherwise, how did you explain it? I've found that if I try to discuss these topics with most people, I may as well be speaking a foreign language. It almost seems that people need to be on a certain level first, before they can digest or have a frame of reference to understand/appreciate what I say. I think how even in my own case, up till a few years ago, I didn't understand what Jeffrey meant by "viriya," despite the fact that I had walked almost the whole of the mystic's way already.
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Jhanon

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Re: Other Mystics
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2014, 10:59:22 PM »
Well, I find that most of my family is mystically inclined, or at least the "sensitive artist" type. Most of them are in the closet about it, or they don't really understand it the way we do here. Like my grandma has tremendous intuitive ability, but she's a kind of Christian. After I explained my experience in detail to my mother, she was able to relate it to some experiences she's had when waiting for sleep. And she is also familiar with moderate kundalini rushes--although she doesn't know it by that name. Most of the family that doesn't have a lot of repressions have mild-moderate kundalini rushes when listening/making music or other art. So in terms of the Path of enlightenment, they are mostly unaware, but they are rather in-touch with charismatic phenomena.

I was able to get my Mom to start meditating about a year ago, and my sister and I began around the same time in search of curing mental illness. But to my knowledge, no one else practices meditation. They either use prayer or have impromptu mystic experiences.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 11:03:07 PM by Jhanon »