The danger of indulging in sensual pleasures

[Michel]

I was struck by this passage from the Culavedalla Sutta, MN 45.3, as I was reading it today. I did not realize that the Buddha taught that indulging in sensual pursuits for the sole purpose of pleasure could result in rebirth in a state of woe, even if one does not cause any being any harm. The object of sensual pleasure in this passage is a woman wanderer. Possibly a woman who is destitute, maybe a prostitute.

By extension, could he have also meant, that indulging in food, music, or even looking at paintings, and enjoying food for the sake of pleasure, are equally of the same nature?

3. Bhikkhus, there are certain recluses and brahmins whose doctrine and view is
this: 'There is no harm in sensual pleasures.' They take to gulp-
ing down sensual pleasures and divert themselves with women
wanderers who wear their hair bound in a topknot. They say
thus: 'What future fear do these good recluses and brahmins see
in sensual pleasures when they speak of abandoning sensual
pleasures and describe the full understanding of sensual plea-
sures? Pleasant is the touch of this woman wanderer's tender
soft downy arm!' Thus they take to gulping down sensual plea-
sures, and having done so, on the dissolution of the body, after
death, they reappear in a state of deprivation, in an unhappy
destination, in perdition, even in hell. There they feel painful,
racking, piercing feelings. They say thus: 'This is the future fear
those good recluses and brahmins saw in sensual pleasures
when they spoke of abandoning sensual pleasures and
described the full understanding of sensual pleasures. For it is
by reason of sensual pleasures, [306] owing to sensual pleasures,

[Jhanananda]

I believe, Michel, this is more related to antinomianism, whereby followers of this deeply deluded system claim "crazy wisdom," which is not wisdom at all, but just craziness.  See: The so-called Maharishi of TM, Choygum Trungpa and Rajnish, for excellent examples of deeply deluded teachers who were followed by many deeply deluded followers.

[Alexander]

I was struck by this passage from the Culavedalla Sutta, MN 45.3, as I was reading it today. I did not realize that the Buddha taught that indulging in sensual pursuits for the sole purpose of pleasure could result in rebirth in a state of woe, even if one does not cause any being any harm. The object of sensual pleasure in this passage is a woman wanderer. Possibly a woman who is destitute, maybe a prostitute.

I found that after I opened the heart chakra, the joy I gained from it surpassed the pleasure that normal people get when they gratify their senses. Opening the heart also made it difficult for me to be frivolous sexually, as it made me aware of all the impressions (samskaras) left behind after sexual experiences. Since my goal was to become free from those impressions, renunciation became an important action.

A related question is whether spirituality is or is not anti-sexual. In my opinion, the premise "spirituality is always anti-sexual" is one of the dysfunctions of popular Christianity. This is because I do not think that spiritual people are, or should be, anti-sexual.

A great example of this concept is the Hindu god Shiva. Shiva is the god of the yogis (celibate) and the image of the householder (with Parvati). Worshipped as the lingam (a phallus), he is seen by the Hindus as the god of virility, despite his image as a celibate yogi.

Part of the veneration of Shiva comes from the thought that, despite being celibate, the yogis do not discard their sexuality. Rather, when they do not use their sexuality for its normal function, it takes on a new purpose: facilitating spiritual development. So, if sexual power is integrated honestly into us, but not acted upon, it can help our spiritual growth.

By extension, could he have also meant, that indulging in food, music, or even looking at paintings, and enjoying food for the sake of pleasure, are equally of the same nature?

I think that a part of unfettering ourselves from physical things means developing a hatred for all of these things. The Buddha would likely say that everything listed here is passible and a trap: that all temporal things lead to death, and are the domain of death (yama). However, if one realizes this, and has developed detachment, I do not see any reason not to enjoy any of these things.

[Jhanananda]

As a mystic I find the point in avoiding sensual pleasures is to find the pleasure that is not of the senses, which is the bliss, joy and ecstasy of total saturation in the charisms.

Bahuvedaniya Sutta, MN 59
.3 "This neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling has been stated by the Blessed One as a peaceful and sublime kind of pleasure."

.7 "Now, if someone were to say: 'This is the highest pleasure and joy (sense pleasure) that can be experienced,' I would not concede that. And why not? Because there is another kind of pleasure (neither-painful-nor-pleasant) which surpasses that pleasure and is more sublime. And what is this pleasure? Here, quite secluded from sensual desires, secluded from unwholesome states of mind, a contemplative enters upon and abides in the first meditative absorption (jhana) ... and has in it joy and pleasure born of seclusion. This is the other kind of pleasure which surpasses that (sense) pleasure and is more sublime."
Based upon a translation of the Majjhima Nikaya trans. Bhikkhus Nanamoli & Bodhi, Wisdom, 1995, Edited by Jhananda

[Michel]

As a mystic I find the point in avoiding sensual pleasures is to find the pleasure that is not of the senses, which is the bliss, joy and ecstasy of total saturation in the charisms.

I'm thinking of indulging in the sensual pleasure of sound. I'm considering buying one of those incredible digital concert grand pianos that are now avaible. I stopped playing classical guitar due to arthritis, but the piano is far easier on the fingers then the guitar, the finger movements are different. I like to improvise on the piano. So I think I could enter into the 1st jhana by playing inspiring music just before doing a meditation sit. Music is such a seductive creature. Do you think this would be a wise idea?

[Michel]

I found that after I opened the heart chakra, the joy I gained from it surpassed the pleasure that normal people get when they gratify their senses. Opening the heart also made it difficult for me to be frivolous sexually, as it made me aware of all the impressions (samskaras) left behind after sexual experiences. Since my goal was to become free from those impressions, renunciation became an important action.

I like the concept of "samskara."

In Hinduism sanskaras or samskaras (Sanskrit संस्कार meaning impression; under the impulse of previous impressions) are the imprints left on the subconscious mind by experience in this or previous lives, which then color all of life, one's nature, responses, states of mind, etc.[1] The Dictionary of Common Sanskrit Spiritual Words says, "Whenever an action is performed with the desire for a specific result (whether for oneself or another), sanskara is created for that person. These accumulate and determine the situations with which we will be presented in the future and will influence the scope of future actions."[2]

A related question is whether spirituality is or is not anti-sexual. In my opinion, the premise "spirituality is always anti-sexual" is one of the dysfunctions of popular Christianity. This is because I do not think that spiritual people are, or should be, anti-sexual.

A great example of this concept is the Hindu god Shiva. Shiva is the god of the yogis (celibate) and the image of the householder (with Parvati). Worshipped as the lingam (a phallus), he is seen by the Hindus as the god of virility, despite his image as a celibate yogi.

Part of the veneration of Shiva comes from the thought that, despite being celibate, the yogis do not discard their sexuality. Rather, when they do not use their sexuality for its normal function, it takes on a new purpose: facilitating spiritual development. So, if sexual power is integrated honestly into us, but not acted upon, it can help our spiritual growth.

Interesting. But specifically, how does one channel one's sexual energy?

I think that a part of unfettering ourselves from physical things means developing a hatred for all of these things. The Buddha would likely say that everything listed here is passible and a trap: that all temporal things lead to death, and are the domain of death (yama). However, if one realizes this, and has developed detachment, I do not see any reason not to enjoy any of these things.

All things are impermanent, and continually changing,  and are unsatisfactory in the end. The key is developing detachment, because whatever one has will cease to be in time, or die as you put it. Therefore if you cling to anything you will suffer. That is the nature of all things that are conditioned (sankhara?) So allow everything to go its natural course.

But I don't think you should need to develop a hatred for all conditioned things. Just accept that they are impermanent and watch them pass away with a calm equanimity, with disinterest, with detachment as you say.

[Alexander]

Interesting. But specifically, how does one channel one's sexual energy?

In my experience the key thing is honesty. We are often very dishonest about sex. Sexuality also gets tied up with our memories and emotions, and this contributes to our dysfunctions.

Many people become asexual, when really this is not appropriate. I find the average man needs regular sex just to do his job every day. And, when a man is not fulfilling those needs, he starts to accumulate dysfunctions.

One strange phenomenon is when the energy of sexuality in used for something that is not sexual. For example, a soldier who is fanatic about killing. Often, fanaticism is a pathology where sexual energy is not being expended correctly.

So, dealing with our sexuality means digging into the unconscious, being honest, and also reconciling our past experiences with a common narrative of ourselves.

[Jhanananda]

I think that a part of unfettering ourselves from physical things means developing a hatred for all of these things. The Buddha would likely say that everything listed here is passible and a trap: that all temporal things lead to death, and are the domain of death (yama). However, if one realizes this, and has developed detachment, I do not see any reason not to enjoy any of these things.

For me, aglorincz, I am an artist and a poet, and a scientist.  I do these things, because I love to do them; however, they never take my attention away from the charisms.

I'm thinking of indulging in the sensual pleasure of sound. I'm considering buying one of those incredible digital concert grand pianos that are now avaible. I stopped playing classical guitar due to arthritis, but the piano is far easier on the fingers then the guitar, the finger movements are different. I like to improvise on the piano. So I think I could enter into the 1st jhana by playing inspiring music just before doing a meditation sit. Music is such a seductive creature. Do you think this would be a wise idea?

I was raised in a musical household.  I kept music with me throughout my life, and I learned to use music as a vehicle to the bliss, joy and ecstasy of jhana; however, I find the charism of sound is the sweetest music I have ever heard, and I never tire of it, so I gave my music collection away. So, Michel, if you can use music as a vehicle to the bliss, joy and ecstasy of jhana, then it is skillful means.

On the issue of sexuality:
It is natural, and normal for all organisms to engage in sex.  So, when the sexual drive is suppressed, then unhealthy outlets are found.  However, I find when one masters the 4th stage of the religious experience (4th jhana), one loses interest in just about everything.  This means the sexual drive goes away, as well as unhealthy outlets.  Still a poet might continue to write poetry.  A visual artist might continue to make visual art.  A musician might continue to make music.  A scientist or inventor might continue to do science, etc.

[Michel]

On the issue of sexuality:
It is natural, and normal for all organisms to engage in sex.  So, when the sexual drive is suppressed, then unhealthy outlets are found.  However, I find when one masters the 4th stage of the religious experience (4th jhana), one loses interest in just about everything.  This means the sexual drive goes away, as well as unhealthy outlets...

Why did the Buddha insist on total abstinence from sexual expression for his monks undergoing the gradual training?

[Jhanananda]

Why did the Buddha insist on total abstinence from sexual expression for his monks undergoing the gradual training?

This is actually a good question, but to answer it thoroughly will require unpacking Buddha dhamma (philosophy) from Buddha adhamma (dogma).

1) The Sanskrit term 'sangha' is not the property of Buddhism.  It existed in Aryan philosophy long before Siddhartha Gautama was born, and he knew that.
2) The Sanskrit term 'sangha' does not mean 'priesthood' or 'monks,' it means 'community,' in the same way 'church' does not mean a place but more accurately means "those who embrace Christianity."
3) Siddhartha Gautama had both lay and monastic followers (sangha).
4) The Pali canon states in numerous places that Siddhartha Gautama had both lay and monastic followers (sangha), who belonged to one of the 4 levels of noble beings (arya pugala), and most notably he had lay followers who he recognized as arahats.
5) Therefore, celibacy was not a requirement for all of Siddhartha Gautama's followers (sangha), nor for the attainment of arahatship.
6) However, celibacy, among other disciplines, was part of the monastic code (vinaya) of the Buddhist sangha.

Now, to answer why celibacy was a requirement for the monastic code (vinaya) of the Buddhist sangha we have to look at the bigger picture.

1) When one becomes an arahat, which requires 4th jhana mastery, one loses interest in sex.
2) The entire trajectory of the Noble Eightfold Path is to answer the Four Noble Truths, which is about eliminating suffering (dukkha), which requires the attainment of arahatship, which requires 4th jhana mastery.
3) A married person who has no sex-drive ceases to be a useful marriage partner.
4) Additionally, the attainment of arahatship, which requires 4th jhana mastery, in most cases, is a full-time job, which means there is no time for a relationship.
5) Therefore, celibacy is skillful means.

[Michel]

5) Therefore, celibacy was not a requirement for all of Siddhartha Gautama's followers (sangha), nor for the attainment of arahatship.

It must be extremely difficult for one who is not celibate to attain arahantship.? I think you said somewhere that you attained arahantship when you were celibate?

[Jhanananda]

It was through saturation into deep meditation where I lost all of my craving for the world/objects of the senses, not by being celibate; however, the two came together in the same year.

[Michel]

I came across this passage today:

"Bhikkhus, sensual pleasures are impermanent, hollow, false, deceptive; they are illusory, the prattle of fools. Sensual pleasures here and now and sensual pleasures in lives to come, sensual perceptions here and now and sensual perceptions in lives to come - both alike are Mara's realm, Mara's domain, Mara's bait, Mara's hunting ground. On account of them, these evil unwholesome mental states such as covetousness, ill will, and presumption arise, and they constitute an obstruction to a noble disciple in training here.  MN 106.2

[Jhanananda]

Discipline is the core of the contemplative life, because without discipline we cannot hope to succeed at the contemplative life.  Success in the contemplative life is becoming a mystic; therefore we cannot hope to become a mystic if we are not disciplined.

[Michel]

Sn 4.1
PTS: Sn 766-771

Kama Sutta: Sensual Pleasure
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1997

If one, longing for sensual pleasure,
achieves it, yes,
he's enraptured at heart.
The mortal gets what he wants.
But if for that person
— longing, desiring —
the pleasures diminish,
he's shattered,
as if shot with an arrow.

Whoever avoids sensual desires
— as he would, with his foot,
the head of a snake —
goes beyond, mindful,
this attachment in the world.

A man who is greedy
for fields, land, gold,
cattle, horses,
servants, employees,
women, relatives,
many sensual pleasures,
is overpowered with weakness
and trampled by trouble,
for pain invades him
as water, a cracked boat.

So one, always mindful,
should avoid sensual desires.
Letting them go,
he'd cross over the flood
like one who, having bailed out the boat,
has reached the far shore.