Adjustment to new Fruits.

[rougeleader115]

Hello Everyone,

A few days ago, I messaged Jhanananda to ask questions about some things I have experienced lately. I was afraid to post them publicly because I wasn't exactly sure it wasn't just me making things up. Lately it has felt that when I am around people, that I feel their thoughts and emotions. I am not saying that I can read minds, but more that I feel like parts of our experience are leaked together. It seems like random thoughts of those around me get into my head, sometimes even right before they say it. It feels like there is a connecting the people and animals close to me. and that all it takes is one strong emotion from one person to affect the rest, myself included.

Alongside that was a concern about how my lifestyle was to best mesh with the contemplative life. I was worried that my having a girlfriend would be detrimental to me. In some ways I see how it can be, but in this case and at this time, it seems like it would be more supportive for us both if we stay together. She does not inhibit me from my meditations, and she is a good friend and person to talk to. Jhanananda also pointed out to me that it is not really necessary that she meditate and have the religious experience. I thought it would seem unfair to need to leave her because of that, and he helped me not to feel so worried or judgmental about the whole thing.

I wish I could give direct examples of what I mean by the shared thought or emotion. It feels weird trying to type out or explain exactly how I have really experienced it so far, but I hope this makes sense.

[Jhanananda]

Hello Everyone,

A few days ago, I messaged Jhanananda to ask questions about some things I have experienced lately. I was afraid to post them publicly because I wasn't exactly sure it wasn't just me making things up. Lately it has felt that when I am around people, that I feel their thoughts and emotions. I am not saying that I can read minds, but more that I feel like parts of our experience are leaked together. It seems like random thoughts of those around me get into my head, sometimes even right before they say it. It feels like there is a connecting the people and animals close to me. and that all it takes is one strong emotion from one person to affect the rest, myself included...I wish I could give direct examples of what I mean by the shared thought or emotion. It feels weird trying to type out or explain exactly how I have really experienced it so far, but I hope this makes sense.

Feeling, or sensing, the mental content and emotional level of everyone around you is a fruit of the contemplative life.  It is a part of the insight that is born of deep meditation which produces the religious experience.  Equanimity is what is required to deal with this intuitive state, otherwise it can all too easily drive us quite mad.  Because of this insight into the collective neuroses I found that I had to retreat into the wilderness to get sufficient distance from it to find greater depth in the religious experience.

Alongside that was a concern about how my lifestyle was to best mesh with the contemplative life. I was worried that my having a girlfriend would be detrimental to me. In some ways I see how it can be, but in this case and at this time, it seems like it would be more supportive for us both if we stay together. She does not inhibit me from my meditations, and she is a good friend and person to talk to. Jhanananda also pointed out to me that it is not really necessary that she meditate and have the religious experience. I thought it would seem unfair to need to leave her because of that, and he helped me not to feel so worried or judgmental about the whole thing.

Relationships in and of themselves are not necessarily a hindrance on the path to enlightenment.  We see this in the suttas where Siddhartha Gautama has both monastic and married disciples who are arahats.  The key here for the householder who is intent upon enlightenment in this very life time, is to be able to put sufficient time into the contemplative life to make progress.  If the relationship allows for that, then it might be a suitable situation.  After all, monasteries, and the mendicant life, have their distractions as well; otherwise enlightenment would be common among the monks, nuns and priests of the world religions; however, we find that simply is not true.

[Alexander]

A few days ago, I messaged Jhanananda to ask questions about some things I have experienced lately. I was afraid to post them publicly because I wasn't exactly sure it wasn't just me making things up. Lately it has felt that when I am around people, that I feel their thoughts and emotions. I am not saying that I can read minds, but more that I feel like parts of our experience are leaked together. It seems like random thoughts of those around me get into my head, sometimes even right before they say it. It feels like there is a connecting the people and animals close to me. and that all it takes is one strong emotion from one person to affect the rest, myself included.

One of the things Gurdjieff argued was that until we "woke up," we lived our lives in a state of automatism: that we have no self-motivated actions, that everything we do is us "reacting" to forces around us.

I think that this view of people is more or less true. But what is most interesting about it is, once you understand the "mechanics" of how people act, speak, think, and feel, you can more or less anticipate what they will do.

[rougeleader115]

Well I can say that it feels like its driving me nut.  I have been feeling guilty about not being comfortable around most people. I'm sure it is common not to want to be around people much, but I was amazed at my resistance to go to a graduation(not mine) the other day. I just found that I was angry and afraid to be around other people. It really wasn't all too bad when I was there, but I still ached most of the time to get back home. Jhanananda, I am very curious how you made it during your years as a householder  and student. I feel I should do something helpful with my life, especially while I am young and physically able, but at the same time I feel such a lack of drive and direction. I do not really understand how to reconcile these.

[Jhanananda]

Well I can say that it feels like its driving me nut.  I have been feeling guilty about not being comfortable around most people. I'm sure it is common not to want to be around people much, but I was amazed at my resistance to go to a graduation(not mine) the other day. I just found that I was angry and afraid to be around other people. It really wasn't all too bad when I was there, but I still ached most of the time to get back home. Jhanananda, I am very curious how you made it during your years as a householder  and student.

How I dealt with the hypersensitivity phase, which went on for a few decades, is I found jobs, where I worked alone.  The last 10 years of my computer repair business I worked alone. This phase is the agoraphobia that Stu has written about.

By 2000 I had finally moved beyond the long dark night of the soul into a subjective place where all beings were cells in my organism, so I found the harmful things that they do was no longer harmful to me, but just normal cellular activity of my organism.

I feel I should do something helpful with my life, especially while I am young and physically able, but at the same time I feel such a lack of drive and direction. I do not really understand how to reconcile these.

This is the limbo phase of spiritual development, in which one nurtures one's spiritual accomplishments, like tending a garden of delicate plants.  This too is a normal, natural and essential developmental stage.  Without it the delicate fruits of spiritual attainment are too quickly turned rotten, and spoiled. 

[rougeleader115]

How I dealt with the hypersensitivity phase, which went on for a few decades, is I found jobs, where I worked alone.  The last 10 years of my computer repair business I worked alone. This phase is the agoraphobia that Stu has written about.

 Thank you for pointing me to the post from Stu. I like the idea of keeping to jobs that I could work alone. I'm sorry for not responding sooner, I was trying to take time digesting the fact that I might feel this way for decades.  But I don't know what else to do but continue on.

By 2000 I had finally moved beyond the long dark night of the soul into a subjective place where all beings were cells in my organism, so I found the harmful things that they do was no longer harmful to me, but just normal cellular activity of my organism.

This too encourages me, just to know that this kind of experience is even possible. Maybe one day I'll be able to see what you speak about.

This is the limbo phase of spiritual development, in which one nurtures one's spiritual accomplishments, like tending a garden of delicate plants.  This too is a normal, natural and essential developmental stage.  Without it the delicate fruits of spiritual attainment are too quickly turned rotten, and spoiled. 

Well with luck, the garden next to the house was just cleared out this year after being overgrown for years. My partner and I only hoed out a small square so far. On Mothers day we bought a few plants. And there were some flowers that died in the kitchen, but started growing again a few days later from the bulbs. So I kept them alive until a few days ago when I planted them in the garden. Once we decide and clear out some more space, we will hopefully be able get some veggies or fruits growing as well. I have some pictures I was going to upload, but I was unable to figure it out this morning. Ill try again next time I'm on.

Do you have any suggestions on other wholesome activities that are beneficial during this developmental stage?

[Jhanananda]

Thank you for pointing me to the post from Stu. I like the idea of keeping to jobs that I could work alone. I'm sorry for not responding sooner, I was trying to take time digesting the fact that I might feel this way for decades.  But I don't know what else to do but continue on.

Just remember it is a phase.  On the other hand, if the world were at all interested in its mystics, then you would find a community where you are welcome; however, the world is not at all interested in its mystics.  So, it is best for mystics to get used to solitude.

By 2000 I had finally moved beyond the long dark night of the soul into a subjective place where all beings were cells in my organism, so I found the harmful things that they do was no longer harmful to me, but just normal cellular activity of my organism.

This too encourages me, just to know that this kind of experience is even possible. Maybe one day I'll be able to see what you speak about.

I expect anyone who pursues deep meditation will have similar experiences.

Do you have any suggestions on other wholesome activities that are beneficial during this developmental stage?

Meditation, retreats, camping, hiking, solitude.

[trjones]

Rougeleader I resonate with your post and want to assure you that you do not need to feel any guilt whatsoever about wanting to retreat from other people. One of the fruits of the contemplative life is the heightened emotional sensitivity to things around you, so frequent retreats become necessary to keep equanimity and tranquility. There are social pressures built in to the fabric of western life that demand we participate in worthless and meaningless events and activities. The further one progresses on the mystic path the more one needs solitude. In many suttas it mentions the Buddha and Sariputta sitting in Jhana most of the day, not even interacting with other contemplatives until late in the afternoon. Staying in solitude is a good thing.

I too have a gf who is not a mystic, but she is intelligent, compassionate, and understanding. The difficulty is being unable to share and communicate deep meditative experiences with her and exist on different mental planes. The household life has many distractions and I understand why the Buddha calls it "closed and dusty." My gf and I also have my daughter half the time. I find it almost impossible to meditate when my child is over, which further almost always includes her friends from our neighborhood. I have another decade of responsibility before I can retreat further into solitude (which is where my practice is taking me).

Jhananda, I find your recommendations to meditate, retreat, hike, and camp to be very valuable. Any other insights into dealing with a relationship with a non-mystic and raising a child while trying to forge the path? It can become outright frustrating how much one must attend to mundane tasks.

[Jhanananda]

Jhananda, I find your recommendations to meditate, retreat, hike, and camp to be very valuable. Any other insights into dealing with a relationship with a non-mystic and raising a child while trying to forge the path? It can become outright frustrating how much one must attend to mundane tasks.

trjones, it sounds like you have solved many of your problems of being a mystic in the industrial world.  One of the things I did that helped me as a mystic in relationship and raising children, was I retired to bed early, where I meditated for as long as my meditation would allow, before going to bed.  Then I got up early, before everyone else, and meditated for at least an hour before getting ready for work.  When my children were toddlers they would crawl out of bed and into my lap, where they would go back to sleep, leaving me to meditate.  Our conversation at breakfast always centered upon discussing our lucid dreams and OOBEs.

Consequently both of my child grew up to be lucid dreamers and contemplatives.  My daughter is in her mid 30s, and my son is in his mid 20s.  They both live in cities, but insular, contemplative lives.  My daughter teaches yoga and meditation and is available for health treatments and consultations.  My son is a computer programmer, who works at home for a computer security corporation.

[rougeleader115]

Rougeleader I resonate with your post and want to assure you that you do not need to feel any guilt whatsoever about wanting to retreat from other people. One of the fruits of the contemplative life is the heightened emotional sensitivity to things around you, so frequent retreats become necessary to keep equanimity and tranquility. There are social pressures built in to the fabric of western life that demand we participate in worthless and meaningless events and activities. The further one progresses on the mystic path the more one needs solitude.

Hello trjones, it is good to see you posting on the forum. I appreciate you in saying that I do not need to feel guilty and that this is all normal to be feeling. I always hear the opposite when I am anywhere else but this forum sadly.

I too have a gf who is not a mystic, but she is intelligent, compassionate, and understanding. The difficulty is being unable to share and communicate deep meditative experiences with her and exist on different mental planes. The household life has many distractions and I understand why the Buddha calls it "closed and dusty." My gf and I also have my daughter half the time. I find it almost impossible to meditate when my child is over, which further almost always includes her friends from our neighborhood. I have another decade of responsibility before I can retreat further into solitude (which is where my practice is taking me).

This really sums up how I feel about my relationship as well. I see why he would call it "closed and dusty" and that's how it feels often. You are the second mystic I have come accross on this forum (besides Jhanananda) that I have seen talking about the responsibility of a child. I cannot imagine what it is like to have a child, except that it must be difficult as all hell at times if not always. I feel the pull towards more solitude most days, but I am allowed a lot of time alone during the day while everyone else is at work and doing errands. Even so, I still wish to see what it is like to have complete solitude (or close to it). I feel there are many things I would learn about myself if I were alone that I might not figure out otherwise.

Jhananda, I find your recommendations to meditate, retreat, hike, and camp to be very valuable.

As do I. Here is a link to the beginnings of the garden and such:

http://s1060.photobucket.com/user/rougeleader114/slideshow/

[Jhanananda]

As do I. Here is a link to the beginnings of the garden and such:

http://s1060.photobucket.com/user/rougeleader114/slideshow/

Nice garden.  I look forward to seeing photos when it is more mature.

[Jhanon]

trjones, I suspect you are referring to me about having a child while trying to live a contemplative life. Strangely, things work out. They are not by any means "societally ideal", but none of this practice is, anyway. We find our minds gravitating with more confidence toward what would work for everyone most dependent on us. The first 6 months were excruciating, and hindrances piled up. But, eventually I regained quite a bit of solitude that I am still in.

You may find total and complete solitude to be a bit less desirable at first than you suspected. Sometimes I'm left in an empty house for a week, and I begin to unravel. I like having relative solitude in silence in a home where there are other people who live relatively quiet lives and don't require my attention.

rougeleader, your observations are normal and on par with mine. As with anything new in life, you just hang in there, do your best to be consciously aware, and mold, as best you can, your life to balance between the needs of those you have duty to, and your contemplative efforts. If you can come right out and explain your new found ability to feel others thoughts and feelings to some people close to you, and they will accept and support you regardless of having no experience with it; then you should be okay.

There are strategies to employ which i've found. When things are loud around my home, I put in headphones that isolate most external noise, and connected to my phone which plays nature sounds. That's just one example. But I've been contemplating the sensitivity to other beings thoughts and emotions quite a bit lately. I started becoming conscious of it two years ago, but in the past I interpreted it as "anxiety." And it was anxiety, but the cause was my inability to understand that I was sensing others mindstates.