Was Jesus Enlightened?

[trjones]

I am wondering if we can have a discussion about this? I am happy to be redirected to another post if that has been discussed already. But I am trying to determine whether or not Jesus was an Enlightened being. My difficulty with this being the case is that I see discrepancies between the Gospels and the Pali Canon. I have taught university level courses on the Gospels, but I value the insight of mystics before scholars.

For example: Jesus used "I am" statements, clearly demonstrating an active fetter of conceit and ignorance. A sense of "I am-ness" means one is not yet an Arahant. Second, "Jesus wept" over his friend Lazarus. Arahant's do not weep over loss because they have no attachments to form. When Ananda asked Sariputta how he would feel if/when the Buddha died, Sariputta makes it clear that grief and sadness will not be in his emotional structure.

I am thinking that Jesus may have been a Bodhisattva or pre-Buddha, but he was not Enlightened. We have sacrificial stories from the Buddha's past before he was a Buddha that matches something like dying for others.

I am very open to any and all thoughts. Thanks.

[Alexander]

Hey trjones.

First of all, to answer your question, yes. This is my personal opinion, that both Christ and the Buddha are examples of fully enlightened beings. Also, as we have discussed in a recent thread, a useful way to deepen our understanding of the one or the other is to apply the concepts of the opposite.

Now, having said that, to formulate a deeper answer to your question is challenging. This is because it requires an amount of study that can only take place over a long period of time.

To start, there are many ways to discern who is enlightened and who is not. As Jhananda argues, critical are the 8 stages of the religious experience, or jhanas. Also important to Jhananda's view are the superior fruit of attainment: the maha-phala, or siddhis.

Are there other ways to discern who is enlightened? In orthodox Buddhism, they argue for the 7 marks of the arahant: mindfulness, discriminative wisdom, energy, joy, tranquility, equanimity, and samadhi. Orthodox Buddhism also argues in favor of the 4 Noble Ones, the implication being that an enlightened being would have progressed through each of these stages on his way to perfection.

In the theology of St. John of the Cross, critical are the navigation of two spiritual crises. The first we could call "metanoia." The second we could call the "dark night of the soul." I will try not to explain these, because I have only understood them by direct experience.

In one thread, we explored the book Cosmic Consciousness which R. M. Bucke published in 1901. In this book he looked at a large number of figures from history, including the Buddha, Christ, Dante, Walt Whitman, and Mohammed, and argued for a comprehensive concept about them, their illumination, and attainments.

In another thread, we discussed Sri Ramana Maharshi. Although initially we found only evidence of nondualism, evidence of the 2 spiritual crises and the superior fruit of attainment point to his being an arahant.

Finally we have had other discussions trying to understand the spiritual life in Christian language. In my opinion, an important Christian doctrine to learn if you're interested in mysticism is the doctrine of theosis. According to this, "God became man so that men can become gods." In other words, like Christ was both divine and human, so, too, can all men develop these two natures, and arrive at perfection by the imitation of Christ.

[Michel]

To start, there are many ways to discern who is enlightened and who is not. As Jhananda argues, critical are the 8 stages of the religious experience, or jhanas. Also important to Jhananda's view are the superior fruit of attainment: the maha-phala, or siddhis.

Are there other ways to discern who is enlightened? In orthodox Buddhism, they argue for the 7 marks of the arahant: mindfulness, discriminative wisdom, energy, joy, tranquility, equanimity, and samadhi. Orthodox Buddhism also argues in favor of the 4 Noble Ones, the implication being that an enlightened being would have progressed through each of these stages on his way to perfection.

An arahant has also overcome the ten fetters:

10 Fetters (samyojana) tying beings to the wheel of existence:

5 Lower Fetters (orambhagiya-samyojana)
1   Narcissism, provincialism, clan identification   (sakkaya-ditthi)
2   Skepticism & doubt (vicikiccha)
3   Clinging to rules, rights and rituals (silabbata-paramasa; s. upadana)
4   erotic craving (kama-raga)
5   Ill-will or aversion (vyapada)

5 Higher Fetters (uddhambhagiya-samyojana)
1   Craving for material existence or Lust for form (rupa-raga)
2   Craving for immaterial or formless existence (arupa-raga)
3   Conceit (mana)
4   Restlessness (uddhacca)
5   Ignorance (avija)

Welcome to the forum, trjones.

[Jhanananda]

To answer your noble inquiry, trjones, one will need to Unpack Christianity and Unpack the Bible; as well as Unpack Buddhism; because all religions tend to corrupt the teachings of their enlightened progenitors.

[trjones]

Thank you aglorincz and Jhananda for the links to other threads. I will do some reading on what has been discussed thus far.

Thank you Michel for the welcome.

I am aware there are many angles one can enter into this discussion from. I have spent time going over translation concerns, textual criticism, historical criticism, redactionism, institutional corruption, so forth. Just so you understand my lens (I am by no means claiming it to be special or final); I am doing a comparison between the Gospels and the Pali Canon as they have been given to us (limited I know) and doing a bit of narrative criticism. I am looking at the actions of the Arahants (not just teachings/words) from the Pail Canon and looking into the actions of Jesus and the disciples and drawing comparisons based on the narratives. From this angle, I see fetters active in Jesus that Sariputta just doesn't have, for example. Though from this lens, one might be able to argue that Jesus became Enlightened at the time of death with "It is finished." Many in the Pali Canon become arahants on their deathbeds, or the Buddha announces it as such.

I will continue musing...