what is the difference between an OOBE and a lucid dream?

[Alexander]

I had my 2nd lucid dream this morning, shortly before waking up.  I knew almost from the start that I was dreaming, as I examined the environment (an office space where I last worked), and then started interacting with the people there, after I realized that they saw me and thought I belonged there with them.  At one point I started telling a female co-worker (that I thought I knew as a friend), that I wasn't really there, that I was dreaming.

Everything in the dream looked real, and very detailed, but as I moved around and through the environment, I realized that it kept changing layout, an impossibility in the real world.  That's how I first confirmed that I was dreaming. As I continued to explore the place it got more elaborate and colorful.  It started out as a single-level mostly white office place, but eventually looked more and more like a shopping mall with escalators and balconies and lots of shapes and colors.  And the costumes of the people went from normal to neo-Victorian, with bowa and ruffles on men's jackets, and made of brightly colored and shiny fabrics, almost looking clownish.

When we all found ourselves outside on a country road, a departed from the group, walking toward a wooded area away from town.  Then I awoke, and remembered everything I had just dreamt.

One thing I have been trying to understand, and hopefully you and Jhananda can explain to me, is what you mean when you say "lucid dream." For the longest time, when Jhananda referred to lucid dream, I took it as synonymous with the OOBE. But, I never quite understood that. I take his meaning of the OOBE as an actual, hyper-real transport to the spiritual plane, in the spiritual body. But, then, what is a lucid dream? Is a lucid dream just an activity of the imagination? Or, is it an anomalous kind of OOBE that is of a personal, created place?

[fqmorris]

One thing I have been trying to understand, and hopefully you and Jhananda can explain to me, is what you mean when you say "lucid dream." For the longest time, when Jhananda referred to lucid dream, I took it as synonymous with the OOBE. But, I never quite understood that. I take his meaning of the OOBE as an actual, hyper-real transport to the spiritual plane, in the spiritual body. But, then, what is a lucid dream? Is a lucid dream just an activity of the imagination? Or, is it an anomalous kind of OOBE that is of a personal, created place?

I am by no means an authority on either lucid dreams or OOBE, but I think a basic difference is that lucid dreams happen when one is asleep, but OOBE happen in a trance state of meditation while one is awake. I won't comment on the relative reality of the places one visits in each state.  But I think at the ultimate level, everything you see in this "real" world is actually an illusion, or so I'm told...

[Alexander]

I am by no means an authority on either lucid dreams or OOBE, but I think a basic difference is that lucid dreams happen when one is asleep, but OOBE happen in a trance state of meditation while one is awake. I won't comment on the relative reality of the places one visits in each state.  But I think at the ultimate level, everything you see in this "real" world is actually an illusion, or so I'm told...

Well, a dream would be an activity of the imagination. So if I dream about a place, then all the people who exist in my dreamworld do not have an independent existence, they cannot exist apart from me.

This is what makes the OOBE as meaningful as it is. If I visit the spiritual realm and converse with devas, then it is an actual hyper-real place. It exists and is more real than this world is. But, if I just dream about visiting the supernatural realm, then it is my imagination, it exists only in my mind.

This why I am confused when Jhananda talks about the OOBE and the lucid dream. Does he mean that some people have OOBEs and mistake them for lucid dreams? I am trying to understand the connection.

[fqmorris]

Toward the start of this account o my first year I said:
" Sometimes I will get an inner image of a very dark blue space that has a distant surface of a mesh-like texture. I can zoom in to see that the dark blue background has a white lace-like surface, with a floral or plant-like pattern. And if I look closer the detail seems to repeat in a 3D fractal kind of way.  Dark blue ground with a plant-like white structure on top or growing throughout the blue mass is a recurrent image I infrequently see.  I don't know its significance yet."

Jhananda replied:
"Now you are moving into the visual charism.  Eventually you might move into sound, smell, taste and.or kinesthetic charisms.  It is all just letting go and letting it all unfold naturally."

Later, after I mentioned my first lucid dream, Jhananda replied:
"Lucid dreaming and the out-of-body-experience (OOBE) are products (fruit/phala) of successfully following a contemplative life.  So, your contemplative life is baring more and more fruit, which is very good."

So "charisms" or "fruit" by these definitions include internal visions of a dark blue-walled space, lucid dreams, and OOBE. He also mentions charisms of other specific senses.  And, though I'm sure they are not equal, i don't think any of these would be called products of one's imagination.  So I think your question is based on a false assumption.

[Alexander]

Toward the start of this account o my first year I said:
" Sometimes I will get an inner image of a very dark blue space that has a distant surface of a mesh-like texture. I can zoom in to see that the dark blue background has a white lace-like surface, with a floral or plant-like pattern. And if I look closer the detail seems to repeat in a 3D fractal kind of way.  Dark blue ground with a plant-like white structure on top or growing throughout the blue mass is a recurrent image I infrequently see.  I don't know its significance yet."

Jhananda replied:
"Now you are moving into the visual charism.  Eventually you might move into sound, smell, taste and.or kinesthetic charisms.  It is all just letting go and letting it all unfold naturally."

Later, after I mentioned my first lucid dream, Jhananda replied:
"Lucid dreaming and the out-of-body-experience (OOBE) are products (fruit/phala) of successfully following a contemplative life.  So, your contemplative life is baring more and more fruit, which is very good."

So "charisms" or "fruit" by these definitions include internal visions of a dark blue-walled space, lucid dreams, and OOBE. He also mentions charisms of other specific senses.  And, though I'm sure they are not equal, i don't think any of these would be called products of one's imagination.  So I think your question is based on a false assumption.

Ah so are you saying the two concepts are synonymous? But then that means the worlds visited in a lucid dream are hyper-real, and that the beings there have an independent existence?

[fqmorris]

And, though I'm sure they are not equal, i don't think any of these would be called products of one's imagination.  So I think your question is based on a false assumption.

Ah so are you saying the two concepts are synonymous? But then that means the worlds visited in a lucid dream are hyper-real, and that the beings there have an independent existence?

They are not "equal," but they are all communications to the mind resulting from different levels of meditation depth.  I think also that different people are more prone, internally wired, to receive some of these communications more easily than others.  Where do they come from?  I would say (guessing) that they are all peeks into parts of "reality" that are not accessible in a "normal" person's mind.  But I am not an authority in these matters.  I am just starting to get peeks into these things.

[Jhanananda]

Please excuse me, Alexander and fqmorris, for hijacking your thread, and moving it to the OOBE and Lucid Dreaming section.  It just seemed to belong there.

One thing I have been trying to understand, and hopefully you and Jhananda can explain to me, is what you mean when you say "lucid dream." For the longest time, when Jhananda referred to lucid dream, I took it as synonymous with the OOBE. But, I never quite understood that. I take his meaning of the OOBE as an actual, hyper-real transport to the spiritual plane, in the spiritual body. But, then, what is a lucid dream? Is a lucid dream just an activity of the imagination? Or, is it an anomalous kind of OOBE that is of a personal, created place?

As I use the terms: 'dream,' 'lucid dream,' 'out-of-body-experience (OOBE),' 'immaterial domains,' 'Near Death Experience (NDE), and 'after death,' is they are all shades of gray of the same experience.  This means that when people dream they are actually interacting on the immaterial domains with dreamers, and the dead; however, they have the lowest level of awareness; whereas, the lucid dreamer has a greater level of awareness, and thus control, and someone in an OOBE has even more awareness and control; and one who has mastered the OOBE to the level of moving through the heavenly domains has even greater awareness and control, or lucidity, if you prefer that term.  Thus lucidity is not black and white, but shades of gray.

Those who die and never develop lucidity in the sleep state are destined to repeat their dysfunctional existence lifetime, after lifetime.

We develop lucidity by leading a disciplined, self-ware, contemplative life.

[Alexander]

As I use the terms: 'dream,' 'lucid dream,' 'out-of-body-experience (OOBE),' 'immaterial domains,' 'Near Death Experience (NDE), and 'after death,' is they are all shades of gray of the same experience.  This means that when people dream they are actually interacting on the immaterial domains with dreamers, and the dead; however, they have the lowest level of awareness; whereas, the lucid dreamer has a greater level of awareness, and thus control, and someone in an OOBE has even more awareness and control; and one who has mastered the OOBE to the level of moving through the heavenly domains has even greater awareness and control, or lucidity, if you prefer that term.  Thus lucidity is not black and white, but shades of gray.

Those who die and never develop lucidity in the sleep state are destined to repeat their dysfunctional existence lifetime, after lifetime.

We develop lucidity by leading a disciplined, self-ware, contemplative life.

One of the things I have been immersed in for some time now is, as John of the Cross calls it, the "Divine Dark," or Negative Ecstasy. I go about my business every day, but, for the most part, I am not attending to external phenomena. They do not reach me, or bother me. In a sense, I have been "pulled out" of myself. I can only say that it is a supernatural experience.

Does this develop into the OOBE? It has been such a long journey and I really am exhausted now... after all my efforts I am interested to finally experience something fantastic. I do not find it reasonable that I should put in all this work and suffering, and have no ultimate verification for all the work I have done.

Also, apologies fqmorris, for hijacking your thread. Thanks Jhanananda for making a new topic.

[Jhanananda]

One of the things I have been immersed in for some time now is, as John of the Cross calls it, the "Divine Dark," or Negative Ecstasy. I go about my business every day, but, for the most part, I am not attending to external phenomena. They do not reach me, or bother me. In a sense, I have been "pulled out" of myself. I can only say that it is a supernatural experience.

In the way that I understand John of the Cross' use of 'dark meditation' and 'dark night of the soul' is he is speaking of stilling the mind at a very deep level.  It sounds like you are using 'Negative Ecstasy' in the same way.  If so, then you are on the right path.

Does this develop into the OOBE? It has been such a long journey and I really am exhausted now... after all my efforts I am interested to finally experience something fantastic. I do not find it reasonable that I should put in all this work and suffering, and have no ultimate verification for all the work I have done.

It depends if you can develop your level of ecstasy (religious experience) to a deeper level.  This is typically done through long meditation sessions several times a day.

[rougeleader115]

As I use the terms: 'dream,' 'lucid dream,' 'out-of-body-experience (OOBE),' 'immaterial domains,' 'Near Death Experience (NDE), and 'after death,' is they are all shades of gray of the same experience.  This means that when people dream they are actually interacting on the immaterial domains with dreamers, and the dead; however, they have the lowest level of awareness; whereas, the lucid dreamer has a greater level of awareness, and thus control, and someone in an OOBE has even more awareness and control; and one who has mastered the OOBE to the level of moving through the heavenly domains has even greater awareness and control, or lucidity, if you prefer that term.  Thus lucidity is not black and white, but shades of gray.

Those who die and never develop lucidity in the sleep state are destined to repeat their dysfunctional existence lifetime, after lifetime.

We develop lucidity by leading a disciplined, self-ware, contemplative life.

I enjoyed reading this. Helps me better understand why there are similarities in these experiences.