A conversation with fqmorris

[Alexander]

I have been having an extensive conversation with fqmorris in private, and he requested I make it public. So, here it is.

----------------------------------

Subject: Your Spiritual Progress
From: fqmorris

Hi Alexander,

My name is David.  Forgive my intrusion. Your plea for progress is moving. Have you received any personal direction on meditation practice from this forum?  I didn't see your case history in that category. Have you gotten offline guidance here?  I believe with your strong desire for deliverance, you can make it through with the right meditation practice.

Breath focused meditation is probably your best bet to slow your mind.  You probably already know that.

I wish you well.

David

----------------------------------

From: Alexander

Thank you for your kind words. I am working diligently every day. I am fortunate, because I am being supported right now, so my breakdown of my hours of the day is:

60-80% of the day in meditation (walking or sitting), or contemplation
10-20% reading
10-20% dialoguing with spiritual persons, in particular Jhanananda, as well as some Nonreturners

Even though I can still the mind, and I exhibit charismatic phenomena, I still have not reached completion.

----------------------------------

From: fqmorris

I can relate to your feelings of haste.  You cannot hasten these things with your anxiety, but you know that already. So do I.

Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

You are on the Path.

----------------------------------

From: fqmorris

Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

Ambition, anxiety, aspiration.
Or
Ambivalence of the Now.

I relate with impatience, but know impatience is a hindrance.
Relaxation with expectation for nothing yet, but,
Faith in what you already know as key for future.

Faith from knowing your present accomplishments are real, because your mind wants you to believe otherwise.

David

----------------------------------

From: Alexander

Faith from knowing your present accomplishments are real, because your mind wants you to believe otherwise.

Agreed. For the past nine months I have swung back and forth many times, between doubt/disbelief in my progress, and, on the other hand, absolute belief in it.

Many of my attainments have distressed me, because the mind wants to bring the whole organism back down to the Earth. So it says, "This 'attainment' is a farce; this is no sign of progress; this is no sign you are nearing perfection," etc. It asks, "Why do you believe you are unlike other people? Why do you think you are better than them? Different?" And you deal with those hard questions again and again.

I can only assume that the eventuality is resting in that new, otherworldly certainty. However, it is quite a frightening thing to approach, even for myself. In Christian mysticism they talk about the goal of "divinization": and I see now what that entails.

----------------------------------

From: fqmorris

May I ask what have been your experiences so far?

----------------------------------

From: Alexander

May I ask what have been your experiences so far?

Let me try to think of them, however the list will be incomplete.

1 The initial "call" to embark on this quest: but, to remain in the world while on it

2 The "knowledge" of having been a streamwinner, once-returner, and nonreturner - passing through each stage - and now arahant

3 The experience of "metanoia" or spiritual transformation which came between streamwinnerdom and once-returning

4 The experience of the dark night which I assume is now in its developed or later stages

5 At the age of 18, a heat or warmth in the chest or heart, that I take to be a sign of the accessing of the heart chakra

6 Meditation induced tinnitus or ringing in the ears

7 For the first times last year, the sensation of the crown

8 The stilling of the mind

9 The overcoming of anger, loneliness, fear, and other lower emotions

10 Self-arising joy and delight, even in loneliness or isolation

11 Premonitions of certain events or knowledge about certain people that I cannot say is human knowledge (<- the most doubtful)

12 Most recently, as I said in that post, the "pulling of me out of myself." I have tried to find some explanation of this experience: from John of the Cross it appears to be what is referred to as Negative Ecstasy

----------------------------------

From: fqmorris

Let me try to think of them, however the list will be incomplete.

1 The initial "call" to embark on this quest: but, to remain in the world while on it

2 The "knowledge" of having been a streamwinner, once-returner, and nonreturner - passing through each stage - and now arahant

How did you acquire those "knowledges?  Are you saying you are now an arahant?  If so, how do you know that?

3 The experience of "metanoia" or spiritual transformation which came between streamwinnerdom and once-returning

What is this experience?  I'm assuming this was in a past life?

----------------------------------

From: Alexander

How did you acquire those "knowledges?  Are you saying you are now an arahant?  If so, how do you know that?

To answer this question I would have to go back to my adolescence. When I was the age of 15, I realized I was different from other people. Very arrogantly, perhaps, I thought I was smarter than everyone else. Or, to express it differently, I felt that I knew "some secret" that made all the thoughts and experiences of the people around me irrelevant. For a long time, however, I was not able to express why I was different from others. But, I began to study and explore.

I read many books, and eventually discovered two important things from Buddhism:

First, the idea of the bodhisattva (by this I mean the "heroically-minded one," a soul that is destined for liberation);

Second, the idea of the streamwinner, someone who is free of the 3 lower fetters.

In almost every way at the age of 15 I was like any other person. But, I intuited I was different. Finally, I came to the conclusion that what I lacked was those 3 fetters, while everyone else had them. Additionally, I was certain I was one of these souls who was "destined" for liberation: although at that time I did not understand the gravity of what that meant.

As time passed, I became a part of the Gurdjieff esoteric school. If you have some experience with this I can explain more. I submitted to the teachings of G. I. Gurdjieff for a large number of years, and had many excellent teachers. I honestly do not think there is anything like the Gurdjieff school in the world.

Finally, four years ago I discovered Jeffrey Brooks. It was very fateful because I found him the day he posted his first video on jhana on Youtube. The day he put it up was the day I happened to search "jhana" on Youtube.

To finally get to your question, "Am I an arahant?" If I had to answer this question now, I would lean on the humble side and say "No." However, I would also say I am not a nonreturner anymore. But, in reference to the fetters, have I extinguished the 5 higher fetters?

What is this experience? ...

Metanoia is a Greek word which comes from Christianity. The English translation is our word "repentance," but this word is very far from the meaning of the Greek word. Metanoia means to "think over," or "think differently." I take it to refer to the initial transformation of the spiritual life, in which we turn from the world of appearances to the inner world, with the accompanying dramatic suffering that is a part of that turn.

I would place it into the chart of the jhanas as:

(Metanoia)
1st jhana - Joy
2nd jhana - Still mind
(Dark Night of the Soul)
3rd jhana - Silent mind
4th jhana - Energy

... I'm assuming this was in a past life?

Here you are referring to the siddhi of remembering past lives, but I have not experienced it. However Jhanananda as well as Valdy have written case histories on it here.

----------------------------------

From: fqmorris

I have a single question in response to your answers:
If you submitted your response here to Jefrrey Brookes, would he agree with your answers?
That question is very important to me.
Would you ask him for a response?  Would he call himself your guru, llama, master, or whatever term like these that apply?

----------------------------------

From: Alexander

I have a single question in response to your answers:
If you submitted your response here to Jefrrey Brookes, would he agree with your answers?
That question is very important to me.
Would you ask him for a response?  Would he call himself your guru, llama, master, or whatever term like these that apply?

If by your first question you are questioning the authority of what I am saying, you should. I want to emphasize you trust Jeffrey's ethos more than mine: so if what he says contradicts me, take what he says and not what I say.

In reference to him being a guru, I don't believe my relationship with Jeffrey is formal enough to call it disciple-teacher. But I have indeed been learning from him for many years, and dialoguing with him since before I subscribed here.

----------------------------------

From: fqmorris

I would rather ask you to submit your communication between us to him for his comment than for me to do so.  He should be able to do so easily, with full knowledge of our exchange, at your request.

I respect your privacy in our communication, until you release it.

----------------------------------

From: Alexander

I will copy our posts and make them public then, because they are very interesting. Give me a few minutes to do it.

[fqmorris]

I have been having an extensive conversation with fqmorris in private, and he requested I make it public. So, here it is.

Correction: I asked that Jhananda be asked about Alexander's answers to my questions about his spiritual experiences.

----------------------------------

From: Alexander

May I ask what have been your experiences so far?

Let me try to think of them, however the list will be incomplete.

1 The initial "call" to embark on this quest: but, to remain in the world while on it

2 The "knowledge" of having been a streamwinner, once-returner, and nonreturner - passing through each stage - and now arahant

3 The experience of "metanoia" or spiritual transformation which came between streamwinnerdom and once-returning

4 The experience of the dark night which I assume is now in its developed or later stages

5 At the age of 18, a heat or warmth in the chest or heart, that I take to be a sign of the accessing of the heart chakra

6 Meditation induced tinnitus or ringing in the ears

7 For the first times last year, the sensation of the crown

8 The stilling of the mind

9 The overcoming of anger, loneliness, fear, and other lower emotions

10 Self-arising joy and delight, even in loneliness or isolation

11 Premonitions of certain events or knowledge about certain people that I cannot say is human knowledge (<- the most doubtful)

12 Most recently, as I said in that post, the "pulling of me out of myself." I have tried to find some explanation of this experience: from John of the Cross it appears to be what is referred to as Negative
From: Alexander

How did you acquire those "knowledges?  Are you saying you are now an arahant?  If so, how do you know that?

To answer this question I would have to go back to my adolescence. When I was the age of 15, I realized I was different from other people. Very arrogantly, perhaps, I thought I was smarter than everyone else. Or, to express it differently, I felt that I knew "some secret" that made all the thoughts and experiences of the people around me irrelevant. For a long time, however, I was not able to express why I was different from others. But, I began to study and explore.

I read many books, and eventually discovered two important things from Buddhism:

First, the idea of the bodhisattva (by this I mean the "heroically-minded one," a soul that is destined for liberation);

Second, the idea of the streamwinner, someone who is free of the 3 lower fetters.

In almost every way at the age of 15 I was like any other person. But, I intuited I was different. Finally, I came to the conclusion that what I lacked was those 3 fetters, while everyone else had them. Additionally, I was certain I was one of these souls who was "destined" for liberation: although at that time I did not understand the gravity of what that meant.

As time passed, I became a part of the Gurdjieff esoteric school. If you have some experience with this I can explain more. I submitted to the teachings of G. I. Gurdjieff for a large number of years, and had many excellent teachers. I honestly do not think there is anything like the Gurdjieff school in the world.

Finally, four years ago I discovered Jeffrey Brooks. It was very fateful because I found him the day he posted his first video on jhana on Youtube. The day he put it up was the day I happened to search "jhana" on Youtube.

To finally get to your question, "Am I an arahant?" If I had to answer this question now, I would lean on the humble side and say "No." However, I would also say I am not a nonreturner anymore. But, in reference to the fetters, have I extinguished the 5 higher fetters?

What is this experience? ...

Metanoia is a Greek word which comes from Christianity. The English translation is our word "repentance," but this word is very far from the meaning of the Greek word. Metanoia means to "think over," or "think differently." I take it to refer to the initial transformation of the spiritual life, in which we turn from the world of appearances to the inner world, with the accompanying dramatic suffering that is a part of that turn.

I would place it into the chart of the jhanas as:

(Metanoia)
1st jhana - Joy
2nd jhana - Still mind
(Dark Night of the Soul)
3rd jhana - Silent mind
4th jhana - Energy

... I'm assuming this was in a past life?

Here you are referring to the siddhi of remembering past lives, but I have not experienced it. However Jhanananda as well as Valdy have written case histories on it

-–-------------------------

From: Alexander

I have a single question in response to your answers:
If you submitted your response here to Jefrrey Brookes, would he agree with your answers?
That question is very important to me.
Would you ask him for a response?  Would he call himself your guru, llama, master, or whatever term like these that apply?

If by your first question you are questioning the authority of what I am saying, you should. I want to emphasize you trust Jeffrey's ethos more than mine: so if what he says contradicts me, take what he says and not what I say.

In reference to him being a guru, I don't believe my relationship with Jeffrey is formal enough to call it disciple-teacher. But I have indeed been learning from him for many years, and dialoguing with him since before I subscribed here.

----------------------------------

From: fqmorris

I would rather ask you to submit your communication between us to him for his comment than for me to do so.  He should be able to do so easily, with full knowledge of our exchange, at your request.

I respect your privacy in our communication, until you release it.

----------------------------------

From: Alexander

I will copy our posts and make them public then, because they are very interesting. Give me a few minutes to do it.

My question re. Alexander's claims of attainment would have been in private to Jhananda.  Alexander made this conversation public.

But now that this conversation and my question about Jhananda's view of Alexander's attainments have been put forth, I hope to receive an answer.

[Jhanananda]

I have been having an extensive conversation with fqmorris in private, and he requested I make it public. So, here it is.

----------------------------------

Subject: Your Spiritual Progress
From: fqmorris

Hi Alexander,

My name is David.  Forgive my intrusion. Your plea for progress is moving. Have you received any personal direction on meditation practice from this forum?  I didn't see your case history in that category. Have you gotten offline guidance here?  I believe with your strong desire for deliverance, you can make it through with the right meditation practice.

Breath focused meditation is probably your best bet to slow your mind.  You probably already know that.

I wish you well.

David

Hello David, and Alexander.  It appears that you two have been having a very interesting dialog.  I wish only to say that the contemplative life is not just the practice of meditation, but also requires discipline and mindful self-awareness, as well as rigorous meditation practice to depth.

Please do keep in mind that we know a tree by its fruit.  This forum serves as a place of dialog about that fruit.  Those who manifest the superior fruit of attainment are those who have successfully traversed the Noble Eightfold Path.

[fqmorris]

This response is true, but it does not respond to my question.

[Jhanananda]

Perhaps an ongoing case history would work best for Alexander to express his attainments instead of a list.

Let me try to think of them, however the list will be incomplete.

1 The initial "call" to embark on this quest: but, to remain in the world while on it

This is devotion and faith, which are characteristics of the first stage of the religious experience.

2 The "knowledge" of having been a streamwinner, once-returner, and nonreturner - passing through each stage - and now arahant

One knows what level of noble being one is by the cessation of the fetters and hindrances.

3 The experience of "metanoia" or spiritual transformation which came between streamwinnerdom and once-returning

As I understand the use of the term 'metanoia' in the Greek gospels, it appears to refer to a transformational experience, not unlike the transformation as described in the Pali Canon as 'noble being' (arya-pugala).

4 The experience of the dark night which I assume is now in its developed or later stages

The term 'dark night' is variably interpreted as 'spiritual crisis' and 'a deep level of stilling of the mind' so we cannot be sure how that term is being used here.

5 At the age of 18, a heat or warmth in the chest or heart, that I take to be a sign of the accessing of the heart chakra

This is a classic description of the opening of the heart.  Such a description appears in the literature associated with mystics of every religion.

6 Meditation induced tinnitus or ringing in the ears

Strange sounds associated with the practice of meditation are commonly described by the mystics of every religion.  We refer to it here as 'jhana-nimitta' or 'charism'.

7 For the first times last year, the sensation of the crown

Sensations on the head are also commonly described by the mystics of every religion.

8 The stilling of the mind

We here define this as the second stage of the religious experience, or second jhana.  We here recognize that this experience is the gate way to the charisms,

9 The overcoming of anger, loneliness, fear, and other lower emotions

This is the release from some of the fetters and hindrances, which are also known as 'liberation' or 'vimokha' in the Indic religions, and is a characteristic of becoming a noble person.

10 Self-arising joy and delight, even in loneliness or isolation

Self-arising joy and delight are characteristics of the religious experience (jhana-nimitta).

11 Premonitions of certain events or knowledge about certain people that I cannot say is human knowledge (<- the most doubtful)

Premonition, intuitions, revelation are all characteristics of the type of insight (vipassna) that we here find is a characteristic of those who genuinely develop the religious experience (samadhi).

12 Most recently, as I said in that post, the "pulling of me out of myself." I have tried to find some explanation of this experience: from John of the Cross it appears to be what is referred to as Negative

The phrase "pulling of me out of myself" could refer to the out-of-body-experience (OOBE), or it could refer to the non-dual characteristic of the various stages of the religious experience.

I have a single question in response to your answers:
If you submitted your response here to Jefrrey Brookes, would he agree with your answers?That question is very important to me.
Would you ask him for a response? 

I have responded above.

Would he call himself your guru, llama, master, or whatever term like these that apply?

The terms: guru, llama, master have variable interpretations.  In a world that consistently does not appreciate its mystics, I am just a guide to those disciplined, rigorous, self-aware contemplative who, like myself, have found nothing but frauds in every religion.

[fqmorris]

Perhaps an ongoing case history would work best for Alexander to express his attainments instead of a list.

2 The "knowledge" of having been a streamwinner, once-returner, and nonreturner - passing through each stage - and now arahant

One knows what level of noble being one is by the cessation of the fetters and hindrances.

My question was:

I have a single question in response to your answers:
If you submitted your response [Alexander's claim of "having been a streamwinner, once-returner, and nonreturner - passing through each stage - and now arahant] to Jeffrey Brookes, would he agree with your answers?
That question is very important to me.

Alexander has gotten the idea that he has attained these very high achievements. Where did he get these ideas? Do you agree with his claims? Did you encourage him to believe these things?

Why do you resist answering this very simple question?

[Jhanananda]

Alexander has gotten the idea that he has attained these very high achievements. Where did he get these ideas? Do you agree with his claims? Did you encourage him to believe these things?

Why do you resist answering this very simple question?

You clearly do not understand my method.  I am not a priest, guru, lama, rabbi, who will tell anyone a bunch of nonsense so that they will send me donations.  I have been, and am, a rigorous, self-aware, contemplative, and scholar of religion, contemplative traditions and mysticism for more than 40 years.  I found absolutely no support for my contemplative lifestyle or validation by any priest of any religion for spiritual attainments and religious experiences.

My method is to validate what people write here about their contemplative life; however, I am not in the business of checking someone's claims, nor promoting someone as an arahat.  I simple give formulas that anyone can apply to understand their personal contemplative life. 

Clearly you did not appreciate me validating your pathetically short and shallow contemplative life.  So, fine, go find a religious fraud who will make you grovel on the floor for decades for a chance to donate to their deeply corrupt belief systems, and please leave us all here alone.

[Alexander]

I want to bring up a few points as I re-read David's posts: however, I am losing my interest in defending him, as I see the very unkind and arrogant way he responded to me.

To begin, it was not clear to me which of my messages he was struggling with. If he asked about the 4 Noble Ones, I could have dialogued more with him. However, he was not satisfied when I deferred judgment to Jhanananda, and now with Jhanananda's response he is not satisfied with him as well.

To defend David, I think the surprise of talking to someone who claims as least nonreturning is deeply upsetting. From David's point of view, it is statistically unlikely to meet someone who (1) claims nonreturning and (2) is not delusional. So, it is very challenging to be open to the chance #2 is not true, and I don't think he was prepared for that.

In reference to David's comment, "Alexander has gotten the idea that he has attained these very high attainments":

Here you are demonstrating a profound arrogance, and are setting a dangerous precedent for yourself. You cannot assume that you know better than everyone else. On the entire globe, there may be only a handful of arahants. A smaller number are publicly accessible. Many are not able to teach. To frivolously leave a place where you can learn is extremely, extremely rash.

Finally, I want to say that this is not a hobby or a game for me. I thought I made that clear in my biography. It has been a long journey: and especially difficult has been verifying my progress as I go. I have discovered that all these priests, monks, and meditation teachers are going nowhere; and that only a method that puts them all to one side will bring fruit. That is the true meaning of "going forth."

[Jhanananda]

Finally, I want to say that this is not a hobby or a game for me. I thought I made that clear in my biography. It has been a long journey: and especially difficult has been verifying my progress as I go. I have discovered that all these priests, monks, and meditation teachers are going nowhere; and that only a method that puts them all to one side will bring fruit. That is the true meaning of "going forth."

I believe that this is the crux of most of the conflicts that have arisen on the various GWV forums over the years.  It is difficult to believe that most religions, and most priests are deluded.  I can understand the conflict, because I did not finally realize it was true until after 2000. It still took me a few years of disbelief as the truth dawned upon me, which was driven by the fact that I had been so thoroughly demonized just for learning to meditate deeply.  So, I can understand David's conflict, but I would appreciate an end of the demonizing and character assassination one day.