Neuroscience research into consciousness

[Jhanananda]

After more than 40 years as a participant-observer anthropologist conducting research into the religious experience, consciousness and altered states of consciousness, the Human Brain Project (HBP) and the US BRAIN Initiative sound more to me to be impossibly naive projects to think that the consciousness of humans is stored strictly in the brain.  So far all I have seen is neuroscience, psychology, and philosophy have made a pathetic effort to understand the religious experience, and consciousness.

[bodhimind]

I've also seen this in many science attempts.

As expressed in this book, it might be possible that the "real mind" utilizes the brain to generate a consciousness. The book itself talks about current research at the level of consciousness itself though, so don't bother getting it. Refreshing to see someone who actually acknowledges the limitation though.

I think the actual problem is that scientists define the mind to be consciousness - involved with sensory processing, decision-making and all sorts of things. They're also often dismissive of visions from OBEs, saying it is through interactions in the brain, even though some have expressed that the brain had ceased activity.

It is also interesting to note that in such experiences, the brain does undergo physical activity: http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/10.3389/fnhum.2014.00070/full

And this particular development seems optimistic: http://www.southampton.ac.uk/mediacentre/news/2014/oct/14_181.shtml#.VKVqNyuUccQ

Maybe this will get them in the right direction, but I highly doubt that physical methods are able to "quantify" the mind.

[Jhanananda]

Maybe this will get them in the right direction, but I highly doubt that physical methods are able to "quantify" the mind.

From my experience, until one learns to meditate deeply, then one cannot understand the deep meditation experience.  Since consciousness researchers clearly do not meditate deeply, then it is unreasonable to believe that they understand consciousness.

[Jhanananda]

I think the actual problem is that scientists define the mind to be consciousness - involved with sensory processing, decision-making and all sorts of things. They're also often dismissive of visions from OBEs, saying it is through interactions in the brain, even though some have expressed that the brain had ceased activity.

After having spent 40 years in research and the contemplative life, then I agree with you here, which means it is hopeless trying to impress upon the scientist, who is not a contemplative that there is anything more than sensory processing and cognition.  So, I left academia and headed off into the wilderness.

[bodhimind]

Maybe this will get them in the right direction, but I highly doubt that physical methods are able to "quantify" the mind.

From my experience, until one learns to meditate deeply, then one cannot understand the deep meditation experience.  Since consciousness researchers clearly do not meditate deeply, then it is unreasonable to believe that they understand consciousness.

I think so as well. What I think might be possible, is probably to understand the form Jhanas through its effects on the physical body, but not its full extent though. But I don't think it might be possible for the formless Jhanas though...

For example, monitoring the heat/energy patterns in a meditating person. I believe recently they have also measured the brainwaves of Tibetan monks who went into deep meditation and realized that they produced gamma waves (32 to 100 Hz), contrary to the brainwave states of deep sleep and relaxation. This shows that there is obviously something very different about dreams in REM sleep and the phenomena experienced in meditation. The brain shows itself to be "hyper-activated" instead.

In another study, where the subjects experienced out-of-body experiences, there was no detectable brain activity at all. Yet they were able to describe exactly what the anaesthetist, nurses and doctors were doing in the operating room. My guess is that when such high-level experiences happen there is probably no way to see those effects on the physical body.

I would think that the Horizon Research Foundation is much closer than HBP, though I would question their motives... Reanimation? I wonder if that's a good thing or really possible.

[Jhanon]

I think the actual problem is that scientists define the mind to be consciousness - involved with sensory processing, decision-making and all sorts of things. They're also often dismissive of visions from OBEs, saying it is through interactions in the brain, even though some have expressed that the brain had ceased activity.

After having spent 40 years in research and the contemplative life, then I agree with you here, which means it is hopeless trying to impress upon the scientist, who is not a contemplative that there is anything more than sensory processing and cognition.  So, I left academia and headed off into the wilderness.

This made me smile, Jhananda

[Jhanon]

For example, monitoring the heat/energy patterns in a meditating person. I believe recently they have also measured the brainwaves of Tibetan monks who went into deep meditation and realized that they produced gamma waves (32 to 100 Hz), contrary to the brainwave states of deep sleep and relaxation. This shows that there is obviously something very different about dreams in REM sleep and the phenomena experienced in meditation. The brain shows itself to be "hyper-activated" instead.

You've reminded me that I have access to some monitoring equipment which allows these waves to be measured. You've also sparked an intuition that so-called "ADHD" (like me), are often and naturally in early jhana. Hence all the joy and energy they have. As far as I'm aware, some notable athletes and artists also enter early jhana during performance or creation. Is it so unlikely to suggest that some humans are born with the innate ability to unknowingly enter jhana in ordinary daily life?

I think not. I have been studying people with "ADHD" all my life, and this is a recurring intuition.

I intend to utilize this equipment to measure both the ordinary "ADHD" or "Autism Spectrum" mind in ordinary states, and also to measure what happens when I enter Samadhi 1-5.

[Jhanananda]

I think so as well. What I think might be possible, is probably to understand the form Jhanas through its effects on the physical body, but not its full extent though. But I don't think it might be possible for the formless Jhanas though...

For example, monitoring the heat/energy patterns in a meditating person. I believe recently they have also measured the brainwaves of Tibetan monks who went into deep meditation and realized that they produced gamma waves (32 to 100 Hz), contrary to the brainwave states of deep sleep and relaxation. This shows that there is obviously something very different about dreams in REM sleep and the phenomena experienced in meditation. The brain shows itself to be "hyper-activated" instead.

The problem here is in 40 years I have yet to meet any Buddhist monk of any faction of Buddhist that either manifests the superior fruit of attainment (maha-phala) or understands them sufficiently to speak of them.  Thus, I reject this research, because the Tibetan monks were most probably frauds like the rest I have met.

In another study, where the subjects experienced out-of-body experiences, there was no detectable brain activity at all. Yet they were able to describe exactly what the anaesthetist, nurses and doctors were doing in the operating room. My guess is that when such high-level experiences happen there is probably no way to see those effects on the physical body.

Now this is interesting.  I would like to know more about this study.

I would think that the Horizon Research Foundation is much closer than HBP, though I would question their motives... Reanimation? I wonder if that's a good thing or really possible.

Well, why reanimate a worn out body, when we all go off and get a new one?

You've reminded me that I have access to some monitoring equipment which allows these waves to be measured.

So far so-called researchers who have studied mediation states have not proven that they even understand what meditation is, or what a mediation state; therefore, I remain unconvinced that brainwaves have anything at all to do with deep mediation states.

You've also sparked an intuition that so-called "ADHD" (like me), are often and naturally in early jhana. Hence all the joy and energy they have. As far as I'm aware, some notable athletes and artists also enter early jhana during performance or creation. Is it so unlikely to suggest that some humans are born with the innate ability to unknowingly enter jhana in ordinary daily life?

I think not. I have been studying people with "ADHD" all my life, and this is a recurring intuition.

I intend to utilize this equipment to measure both the ordinary "ADHD" or "Autism Spectrum" mind in ordinary states, and also to measure what happens when I enter Samadhi 1-5.

After spending more than 40 years studying people who experience deep mediation states, and encountering the occasional ADHD, and autistic, I see clear connections between them, which indeed suggests that some people are "natural" mystics; not that most of them ever figure it out.

[Jhanon]

*sigh* Agreed on all accounts. LOL. This is what I am going to do from now on, instead of chattering needlessly

[bodhimind]

Now this is interesting.  I would like to know more about this study.

Here is the paper: AWARE - AWAreness during REsuscitation

Particularly in the Results section:

46% had memories with 7 major cognitive themes: fear; animals/plants; bright light; violence/persecution; deja-vu; family; recalling events post-CA and 9% had NDEs, while 2% described awareness with explicit recall of ‘seeing’ and ‘hearing’ actual events related to their resuscitation.

And remembering what Jhanon was talking about as Deja Vu, I found this section particularly interesting:

Fear

• “I was terrified. I was told I was going to die and the quickest way was to say the last short word I could remember”
• “Being dragged through deep water with a big ring and I hate swimming—it was horrid”.
• “I felt scared”

Animals and plants

• “All plants, no flowers”.
• “Saw lions and tigers”.

Bright light

• “The sun was shining”
• “Recalled seeing a golden flash of light”

Family

• “Family talking 10 or so. Not being able to talk to them”
• “My family (son, daughter, son-in-law and wife) came”

Being persecuted or experiencing violence

• “Being dragged through deep water”
• “This whole event seemed full of violence and I am not a violent man, it was out of character”.
• “I had to go through a ceremony and . . . the ceremony was to get burned. There were 4 men with me, whichever lied would die. . .. I saw men in coffins being buried upright.

Deja vu experiences

• “. . .experienced a sense of De-ja vu and felt like knew what people were going to do before they did it after the arrest. This lasted about 3 days”

Events occurring after initial recovery from cardiac arrest

• Experienced . . .“a tooth coming out when tube was removed from my
  mouth

As well as this recollection (there are others, but you can see all of them in the link above):

Recollection # 1
(Before the cardiac arrest) “I was answering (the nurse), but I could also
feel a real hard pressure on my groin. I could feel the pressure, couldn’t
feel the pain or anything like that, just real hard pressure, like someone
was really pushing down on me. And I was still talking to (the nurse) and
then all of a sudden, I wasn’t. I must have (blanked out). . ..but then I can
remember vividly an automated voice saying, “shock the patient, shock
the patient,” and with that, up in (the) corner of the room there was a
(woman) beckoning me. . .I can remember thinking to myself, “I can’t get
up there”. . .she beckoned me. . . I felt that she knew me, I felt that I
could trust her, and I felt she was there for a reason and I didn’t know
what that was. . .and the next second, I was up there, looking down at
me, the nurse, and another man who had a bald head. . .I couldn’t see his
face but I could see the back of his body. He was quite a chunky fella. . .
He had blue scrubs on, and he had a blue hat, but I could tell he didn’t
have any hair, because of where the hat was.
The next thing I remember is waking up on (the) bed. And (the nurse) said
to me: “Oh you nodded off. . .you are back with us now.” Whether she
said those words, whether that automated voice really happened, I don’t
know. . .. I can remember feeling quite euphoric. . .
I know who (the man with the blue had was). . .I (didn’t) know his full
name, but. . .he was the man that. . .(I saw) the next day. . .I saw this
man [come to visit me] and I knew who I had seen the day before.”
Post-script – Medical record review confirmed the use of the AED, the
medical team present during the cardiac arrest and the role the
identified “man” played in responding to the cardiac arrest.

It is truly interesting!

So far so-called researchers who have studied mediation states have not proven that they even understand what meditation is, or what a mediation state; therefore, I remain unconvinced that brainwaves have anything at all to do with deep mediation states.

I really enjoy how I'm learning so much here, compared to when I talk to people outside this place. People outside just can't seem to get that perspective that I'm using to view the whole thing. One thing I think scientists are totally off about is equating brain activity (hence brainwaves) directly to the religious experience. I mean, they can only measure when thoughts are "there". But what about during the absence of thoughts?

You've also sparked an intuition that so-called "ADHD" (like me), are often and naturally in early jhana. Hence all the joy and energy they have. As far as I'm aware, some notable athletes and artists also enter early jhana during performance or creation. Is it so unlikely to suggest that some humans are born with the innate ability to unknowingly enter jhana in ordinary daily life?

Very interesting. I was also diagnosed as ADHD. Ever since I could crawl I kept remembering that I wanted to "keep something in memory". For some really strange reason I knew that if I didn't hold on to it the memories would slip. It was something like when you wake up from a sleep and those memories of the dream tend to fade away. Now the only thing I can remember is the fact that I was struggling really hard to not forget.

I do remember bright lights when I was really really young, but I cannot remember where I experienced it. I kept that feeling of how everyone seemed to be "zombies" within me and kept reminding myself because I did not want to become a zombie.

I also saw an avalokitesvara statue cry blood before but nobody ever believed me. All of these experiences, I'd just keep it all to myself because I totally seemed like I was insane and abnormal.

[Jhanananda]

Thank-you, bodhimind, for posting the very interesting links and quotes

I really enjoy how I'm learning so much here, compared to when I talk to people outside this place. People outside just can't seem to get that perspective that I'm using to view the whole thing. One thing I think scientists are totally off about is equating brain activity (hence brainwaves) directly to the religious experience. I mean, they can only measure when thoughts are "there". But what about during the absence of thoughts?

Precisely.  The problem is researchers who research meditation states never collect a case history from their subjects to find out if their subjects can still their mind, or have any religious experience what so ever.

[Jhanon]

bodhimind, wow. I can't respond to all of this. There is too much content. I'll just say that you and I are "kindred spirits." Even our childhoods, almost exactly.

I suspect we could gain from real-time conversation. We just put up Skype for everyone, and I included instructions to retain anonymity.

For lack of a greater response, I'll simply say that you have brought much to the table, and restored some of my memory from the early years of trauma.

[rougeleader115]

http://www.theguardian.com/science/brain-flapping/2013/oct/09/head-orgasms-meditation-near-death-experiences

Just came across this page, and thought it might be worth posting.

[Jhanananda]

The optometrist explained what the test entailed and asked me questions about how much I watched TV and used computers, all in this incredibly soothing, soft-spoken voice. When she lowered the lights and used the pen torch to see into the backs of my eyes, I experienced this tingling sensation. It began at the crown of my head and trickled over my scalp, down my neck and across my arms and legs. It was so relaxing I could have fallen asleep, though that wouldn't have been conducive to an eye examination...

Have you ever experienced something similar? Perhaps when the hairdresser cuts your hair, or someone else does your makeup, or when someone roots around in a crinkly bag, or when you watch Bob Ross paint, or when the school nurse checked your hair for nits? (That last one might just be me …) If you have ever had those relaxing tingles, you were probably experiencing something called ASMR.

This is clearly not what people experience when they experience deep meditation.

[bodhimind]

This is clearly not what people experience when they experience deep meditation.

I agree. I have read the article before and I do not agree that it corresponds to even my limited experience.

----

On the other hand, I just wrote an article about the various neuroscience "evidences" as an assignment in a university and had to research. This is a collection of evidences that I have come across in the research, which sounds promising:

1. Full, working, unhindered consciousness despite minimal brain tissue (despite hydrocephaly). One case had 5% brain tissue and still had an IQ of 126, a graduate student in Mathematics from Cambridge. This can be in spite of brain death (Lazurus patients who spontaneously recover) or even heart arrest/brain-dead patients. This strongly hints that consciousness might not completely depend on the brain itself.

2. Verified past-life memories of children aged 2-5 years old - by name, occupation and family details. This shows that at least memory itself, can indeed exist prior to the development of the brain. This hints of objective evidence for reincarnation. There is no other possibility that this evidence is refuted if the research is authentic.

3. Spontaneous recovery of lucidity in patients suffering from brain or neurological disorders. Perfect sanity, coherence, just moments before death. Verified many times, by over thousands of cases. Also verified in a nursing home by 70% of caretaker nurses.

4. Out-of-body experiences, even verified, by several case studies. 3rd person perspectives. Somehow, all of them report the same experiences despite not knowing each other. I am following some by the university of virginia.

The biggest problem I find, is replicable studies, because very obviously - Inducing out-of-body experiences through drugging or stimulating various parts of the brain through electricity are not very good methods. Instead, I find that if one were to really want to have a good study, they should find accomplished meditators who have already been able to generate a manomaya. But even so, I am not sure if one could, for example, be able to read something in the next room.

I don't know if this is a right analogy, but I feel like the brain is like a radio. If the brain is broken, then it is like breaking a radio - You cannot hear the music. However, it does not mean that the radio waves do not exist.