In search of understanding...

[Zack]

I think the word "enlightenment" is a loaded term, but one of the most important points that Jhanananda tries to get across is that it isn't an event or a static state, but a lifestyle that one must maintain. It seems clear to me he is at the forefront of that lifestyle. This post really hit me with both the depth of humanity and height of spiritual attainment he has reached.

[Cal]

I've begun thinking of reality in "layers". I've become aware that as something new is realized, another layer is peeled away . I am only sure when the layer was formed, even what it entailed, after it has been peeled away, and I can observe it. My thoughts lately have been of a seemingly "dark" nature. But the more I entertain these "dark" thoughts, the more apparent it becomes that this is actually another layer being peeled away. I'm hesitant to share, as there are many here that are lurkers, and I do not wish to give wrong impression. However, there are some of us here that travel this same path and I think I can help them, and they me.

A couple of months ago my I spent some time following the outline in the Discerning attainment thread by Alexander, and posted my thoughts there in. I concluded it with the verdict that "this place is hell". I did not realize then how true that statement was, at least, not fully. See, the perspective I was looking through then, was one of a more "grounded" nature, one more centered on people and fabricated reality. In short, I left demons and the like completely out of it. Much has changed, or rather, another layer has been peeled away. I'm starting to see that demons and the like, provide a truer test for one deeply on the path. The way that they could instill fear, or even suffering within the body could provide no better test, at least at this point of my understanding, in which one could be judged. That soul shattering "growl' as they come close. Or the intensity in which one's body can "burn". The hijacking of the senses to engulf one into primal reaction. In reflection, I look back to my adolescent years. Driven by emotion and reaction to, if I had encountered some of these experiences then, I would have gone mad and commited suicide. I wouldnt have been ready for them then. Which leads me to believe that I am ready for them now. All encounters to the above I have met first with resistance, then submission to resistance, and then endurance. Right or wrong, I have not come to that conclusion yet. However, I think in realizing that they can provide a benefit, I can "observe".  And my past experience tells me that when I can observe, equanimity towards has been established, and the layer is peeled away.

Bodhimind, I think back to a talk we had recently where I said I could not subscribe to the belief in possession. I think some on that now, what it entailed, a girl who needed 4 men to restrain her, also to the Runner's high discussion where we talked about muscles bypassing the "safety mechanism". I have some interesting thoughts on this matter, however, I'm going to hold them for now, as I'd like to spend some more time on them.

[Jhanananda]

The difficulties that arise from learning deep meditation necessitate developing extreme equanimity.  So, friends, focus upon stilling the mind, and developing equanimity, because you are going to need it if you are headed to the deep meditation experience.

[Cal]

Last night I had a dream that I was sleeping. I was a child, I could tell that the setting was back where I lived when I was 12. Oddly, my little brother, who would have been 8 at the time, was sleeping in the same bed. It was a very lucid dream. I know it was only partly a dream because it felt like I was OOB, meaning what I felt in the dream, I also distinctly felt it in my body. I felt as though I was meditating deeply, and kundalini would come and go. In between the kundalini I would cry out in fear, and it took me some time to figure out why, or at least what I thought was "why". So Kundalini would come and pass, I would cry out in fear, meditate and be annihilated by kundalini again. The setting, with my brother, was the happiest time of my remembered life. Although, I didnt realize that until it was the setting of this dream. Anyway, I kept waking him up in the dream, oddly I thought to turn to a cigarette for comfort, this is interesting that I would think think this, even more-so that I observed myself thinking this. I have never consciously thought this, so I think I may be working towards dropping this as well. I looked out the window in this dream, to see many cats in a field. Today, where I would have been looking in this dream, is filled with housing, but when i was a kid, there was an open desert field there. I dont know the meaning to either, but ill ponder them, as there is some reason I seen it in this way. I may call my brother as well, see if I can find out if he had a restless night last night.

[Jhanananda]

In my experience, Cal, OOBEs and lucid dreams can be a collection of real world content, plus present time-frame, plus time-frame of the event being witnessed, plus the psychological content of everyone present, which can make it very difficult to interpret.  So, I tend to take these on face value, and hope that understanding them may come at a later date.

[Cal]

In my experience, Cal, OOBEs and lucid dreams can be a collection of real world content, plus present time-frame, plus time-frame of the event being witness, plus the psychological content of everyone present, which can make it very difficult to interpret.  So, I tend to take these on face value, and hope that understanding them may come at a later date.

Ultimately, I think I would want to remove the perception from these events, so that they could be raw, instead of interpreted by indiscernable input. These experiences have had the distinction to what is felt when I've jumped out of an airplane, or off a two-hundred foot cliff. Falling. Rapidly descending, although, some of the physical aspect is missing. Meaning, I do not feel that I am falling, however, I know that I am "falling". This feeling has been a subset, much like an unconscious thought. I don't know if I am trying to put my finger on anticipation or freedom/unhindered from the physical. Perhaps that is what it is, the "weight" of my physical self is not present. The best I can describe it is "unfamiliar-ly familiar". 

I've thought much on the meaning of the cats in the field. I've concluded that if it was not my own interpretation, but my brothers, then I understand the meaning of it. At one point, when we were very young, his dad sought to purchase that field for my brother. There were many cats around the neighborhood. I think of some of this as his "trigger", its what he correlates that time frame with, and it makes sense to me, as this is similar to how he thinks. Also the freedom of the openness. He's feeling "boxed" in, which also makes sense. They constructed an overpass litterally in front of the house where he lives, and as mentioned before the city filled in the open fields with housing, monopoly houses at that, or manufactured homes. I believe it was his dream of a better time.

The fear from the dream was certainly my own. Although, I'm surprised I embodied it in such a way. It is helpful to have a clearer view of it, though. "Enclosed" is what i will name it. "Fear of opening the door". I'd like to limit this to what is "unknown" yet that would narrow it down too much, as I also feel it encompasses what is known, but is rejected. I'm curious how one combats such deep seated fear? In the case of cliff diving or skydiving, a clear threshold was present in which fear could be engaged and overcome. On this front, however, no such threshold exists. I feel as though if I could confront this fear, that I could either grow more afraid, or move towards its relinquish. This is where it gets complicated, at least for me, as I have not known equanimity towards what I have not observed, in real-time. At least, I could not say this honestly. I think back to when equanimity was greatest. It felt then to be sufficient for everything. I grasped at neither the negative or positive, the right or wrong, I simply observed all interaction, but then again, I was dealing with "apples", and now I deal with "pears". One thing of note in this regard it was the greatest of adversity that led me to equanimity, with meditation of course, back then. I may be overthinking this, as when a great equanimity was present, absent was emotion.

[Jhanananda]

It sounds to me like you have correctly interpreted the dream/OOBE.

For dealing with fear, we just have to keep letting go at ever deeper levels, until there is no fear.  However, fear can be useful, while in a body.

[Cal]

http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/commitment.htm

I want to know more. You and Michael did an excellent job in discussing the threshold between the mastery of the second jhana, to the door opening to the third. But i can't find anything more on the subject about whats next. In your article linked above, you describe other people who have experienced what I have felt keenly and both your article here and Michaels lead me to believe it is not the end of this. I will not turn away. I do hold my excuses of not upholding a rigorous "formal" practice, at the same time I feel that I am saturated all the same. I want to read about it. I have also made similar commitments to god and the infinite.

[Jhanananda]

Hello, Cal, thank-you for posting your inquiry here.  Thank-you also for posting a link to my essay, Commitment as a Refuge, The Dark Night of the Soul in Buddhism.  A critical aspect to answer your inquiry also involves Enriching the Religious Experience, which is a thread on this subject.  We also have a video on Enriching the Religious Experience.  Please let me know if reviewing the thread and video answer your inquiry.  If not, then we can pursue it at greater depth until you are satisfied.

[Cal]

Hello, Cal, thank-you for posting your inquiry here.  Thank-you also for posting a link to my essay, Commitment as a Refuge, The Dark Night of the Soul in Buddhism.  A critical aspect to answer your inquiry also involves Enriching the Religious Experience, which is a thread on this subject.  We also have a video on Enriching the Religious Experience.  Please let me know if reviewing the thread and video answer your inquiry.  If not, then we can pursue it at greater depth until you are satisfied.

I think I have a good understanding of what you're meaning and perhaps, this is correct. I do not hold a particular reverence for the formal meditative practice, at least not at the conscious level. Perhaps this is why I only meditate at night, while drifting to sleep. Even this is mostly not by choice though, it just happens that way. I do, however, at times, "think" of the charisms as a communion with the divine. I can say with confidence that if I were to sit right now in meditation for an hour or more, that it would lead to the 4th Jhana, most likely beyond, and therein lies my hesitation in a rigorous formal practice. Enriching of the religious experience, if I were even able to, would lead to submission, or at the very least the practice of submission.

I seek comparison. I wish to read what others have encountered at some of the deepest levels so at the very least, there is some preparation. Honest, and genuine experience, a "play by play" if you will. Admittedly, I have not fully crossed the threshold of the second into the third. There are times that I am at war within my mind. There are times that I am unhinged. Yet if I think of things in a broader sense, my mind is still. I spend hour upon hour here with silent mind observing and then turn the mind on to contemplate. I do not do this in the way I have previously ingested and simultaneous perceived information, rather its a collection, and then contemplation. There are many variables to this, but at the best of times, mostly late at night when there are no distractions around me, the mind is still. I hope in recent days and months to cultivate this to fruition.

Simply knowing that "worlds can collide" is fine, but knowing others have went through this relatively recently, or perhaps that they still go through this is reassuring. Alexander put it quite nicely once, "Does one go into the forest without a map?".

Both the thread Enriching the Religious Experience and the video, Enriching the Religious Experience, answered a great deal on "perspective", thank you for pointing me to them.

[Jhanananda]

I am glad that it was of help.  Finding more people to post "blow-by-blow" accounts of the deeper states of meditation will require more people to take up a dedicated contemplative life, and record their experiences, then post them somewhere.

[follinge@gmail.com]

I found Anon's questions about enlightenment to be interesting.

I used to have similar questions, and beliefs. I kind of miss the time where I believed that meditation would lead to a steady increase in equanimity until I needed little in my life than a little food and water. No social interaction for me.

Fortunately or unfortunately, that turned out to not be true. I had reached the "sensitive period" that Jeffrey talks about. Is this the same as the Dark Night? At any rate, I did pull back from meditation at this point as he noted that many people do.

I want to go back there!

What I can't go back to is the notion of a false belief in enlightenment. In some ways it's disappointing, but in some ways, it's better. Enlightenment seems more doable. I all ready met someone who was far along. Many call her a bodhisattva. She's not, but she's far beyond what most of us know. She's the one who rekindled by commitment to meditation and lead me to this message board.

At this point, I have stopped imaging enlightenment and now I just take the advice of my spiritual better here. It has all ready paid off. The advice has all ready been more useful than other places seeing as we're past meditation 101 that we see in places that need to make money and thus are a volume business. These places cater exclusively to the 101 crowd. I suspect that some of the teachers have tasted some attainments, but if they talk too much about them they'll be kicked out.

I can say to Anon, this. Reality is better than fantasy. We can't really know enlightenment until we feel it. We can't feel it until we do the work.

So we need to meditate.

We do need to be mindful. Good speech is helpful as it creates proper spiritual conditions.

I will say this, do not fear "social interactions" with you spiritual betters. They will not hurt you or put you back. Don't put too much time into it. Spend more meditating, but do converse. Open up and share your experiences. We are here to help.

I find that compassion is a very strong pillar in my own personal practice. This leads to more faith in the practice which leads to more practice, more concentration, and more fruit from the practice.

I'm glad to hear questions I can relate to, and I'm sure the others have helped with their answers. I'd just like to encourage you, that when you have more questions, please post them as they won't set you back spiritually.

Plus the people are really nice. Reality based, but super-helpful.

Much gratitude.

[Jhanananda]

I found Anon's questions about enlightenment to be interesting.

I am not sure what question you are speaking of, but if the following quote from Anon is what you are speaking of, then we can go further in a relevant response.

...Let me explain my comment. I get the impression from the scattered information I've received about enlightenment that the enlightened person is supposed to be beyond social needs. I don't know a canonical source for this belief. I refrained from posting on this board because I thought doing so would be indulging my social desires, which is contrary to enlightenment. Yet, I still lurked on this board because I have social needs. I also doubted that Jhanananda was enlightened, or at least fully enlightened, because it seemed the board fulfilled a social need for him...If someone can camp solo or live alienated for years without getting lonely, but later manifests social needs, he isn’t fully enlightened according to my assumption.

I used to have similar questions, and beliefs. I kind of miss the time where I believed that meditation would lead to a steady increase in equanimity until I needed little in my life than a little food and water. No social interaction for me.

Well, I can see that progression being a possibility; however, one has to learn how to meditate skillfully, and the attainment of the superior fruit is evidence of that skillfulness; unfortunately all too few who take up a contemplative life ever get to that level of skillfulness, as demonstrated by how few ever develop the superior fruit of attainment (maha-phala).  And, on point here, equanimity is one of the superior fruit of attainment (maha-phala).

Fortunately or unfortunately, that turned out to not be true. I had reached the "sensitive period" that Jeffrey talks about. Is this the same as the Dark Night? At any rate, I did pull back from meditation at this point as he noted that many people do.

Yes, the hypersensitive stage is one of several spiritual crises that are often called the Dark Night of the Soul.  This is why we have a whole section of this forum that is dedicated to negotiating the Spiritual Crisis.

I want to go back there!

What I can't go back to is the notion of a false belief in enlightenment. In some ways it's disappointing, but in some ways, it's better. Enlightenment seems more doable. I all ready met someone who was far along. Many call her a bodhisattva. She's not, but she's far beyond what most of us know. She's the one who rekindled by commitment to meditation and lead me to this message board.

You can of course return to the level of attainment that you have before you pulled back from your meditation practice, by simply returning back to the level you had, or possibly increasing it more.  You will of course return to the hypersensitive stage, which is likely to return you to the Spiritual Crisis.  Thus, you will have to negotiate the Spiritual Crisis to move beyond it; and doing so will require developing considerably more equanimity than you have at present.

Part of the reason why so few develop the superior fruit of attainment (maha-phala), is because too few have sufficient dedication to liberation and enlightenment to traverse the Spiritual Crisis.  So, another way to determine how enlightened someone is, is how well they understand the Spiritual Crisis, as well as how well they understand the superior fruit of attainment (maha-phala).  And, have nothing to do with being the only begotten son of god, or being born of a virgin, or performing miracles.

At this point, I have stopped imaging enlightenment and now I just take the advice of my spiritual better here. It has all ready paid off. The advice has all ready been more useful than other places seeing as we're past meditation 101 that we see in places that need to make money and thus are a volume business. These places cater exclusively to the 101 crowd. I suspect that some of the teachers have tasted some attainments, but if they talk too much about them they'll be kicked out.

I am glad that we have been of help to you in understanding the Spiritual Crisis.  Hopefully you make some progress in developing the superior fruit of attainment (maha-phala) as well.

I can say to Anon, this. Reality is better than fantasy. We can't really know enlightenment until we feel it. We can't feel it until we do the work.

So we need to meditate.

We do need to be mindful. Good speech is helpful as it creates proper spiritual conditions.

I will say this, do not fear "social interactions" with you spiritual betters. They will not hurt you or put you back. Don't put too much time into it. Spend more meditating, but do converse. Open up and share your experiences. We are here to help.

I find that compassion is a very strong pillar in my own personal practice. This leads to more faith in the practice which leads to more practice, more concentration, and more fruit from the practice.

I'm glad to hear questions I can relate to, and I'm sure the others have helped with their answers. I'd just like to encourage you, that when you have more questions, please post them as they won't set you back spiritually.

Plus the people are really nice. Reality based, but super-helpful.

Much gratitude.

Good advice here that all of us could benefit by.

[Cal]

Jhanananda, Lately I've had an intense feeling of "falling" shortly after I've woken up, periodically throughout the day, and most recently here sitting at the computer. It's very hard to put this experience to words, but it just feels "off". Like someone is taking a blanket and covering me from my head to my toe and pulling it downward. My mind is heavy. I can correlate it to "motion", but not completely to the physical. I do not "feel" physically sick either, but perhaps it is a cold. But my body is strong and it feels of a spiritual nature when it happens. Have you, or anyone else here experienced something like this?

[Sam Lim]

Seems like you are going OOB.