Author Topic: Manhood - Gurdjieff  (Read 12192 times)

Alexander

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Manhood - Gurdjieff
« on: August 11, 2014, 09:00:16 PM »
(From an email a month ago, thought it was worth keeping)

Heiner wrote:

[...]

 > Finally, he said:  "I've been married and divorced four times.
 > My wives always said that I don't care enough and that I'm insensitive.
 > So, I wish that I could understand women ... know how they feel inside
 > and what they're thinking when they give me that silent treatment ...
 > know why they're crying, why they get hysterical,
 > know what they really want when they say nothing ...
 > know how to make them truly happy ...
 > I really want to understand women and how they are!"

>>>>

Alexander wrote:

Gurdjieff said some very interesting things about this in the book by Fritz Peters.
One of the things he said was, "If the world was not such a messy place, this Work
would only be for men." Another was, "If a man is on his way to heaven, he will take
the woman there with him."

Gurdjieff's idea of the Work is it is about the 7 types of men: and the suggestion is
that the greatest man is man 6 or 7. In the past, Christ was the example of the supreme
man. What does that mean? What qualities did Christ have that made him the greatest
man?

Manhood is interesting because it contains in itself contradictory qualities.
Women are so complex because they want contradictory things from men. They
want us to be both virile and good. Usually we are not like this. As a rule
we are are either virile and cruel, or good and weak. How can we reconcile opposing
qualities? If we can do this, we can become men in the real sense of the word.
https://alexanderlorincz.com/

"I saw all things gathered in one volume by love - what, in the universe, seemed separate, scattered." (Canto 33)

Jhanon

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Re: Manhood - Gurdjieff
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2014, 10:02:56 PM »
Alexander, thank you so much for this post. It's interesting you call it "manhood." My Mother, not fully understanding Enlightenment, but being a proto-mystic that I am slowly coaxing out of the closet, said to me something that coincides. When i was young, I was very different and sensitive, and loving (as was my partner). When I got into high school, things got tough, I became an identity, and the little boy was almost entirely gone.

When I started meditating and making my way back to the path I was on, she said "You've come into manhood. You're the man version of the little leg hugger everyone loved so much."

Another reason I want to thank you is that I want to treat my partner the best I can. And for 98 percent of the time, she seems very happy with me. But I want it to be %100, and I want to gift her Enlightenment as well. She's so amazing, I feel like I can never do enough. It's hard to describe. It seems she may already be a Streamwinner, despite very little meditation practice. I remember when we first "re-met", I was telling her about some of my insights and experiences, and she wasn't the least bit shocked or surprised. Finally, I asked her "Why do these things not surprise you? Everyone else is in disbelief or not sure what to think. But you just sit there, listening, as if we were talking about coffee." To which she replied "Everything you're saying is familiar to me. I know these things. I just don't talk about them. But I enjoy listening to you talk about them."

To which I replied:  :o
« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 10:04:59 PM by Jhanon »

Alexander

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Re: Manhood - Gurdjieff
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2014, 10:28:15 PM »
When I was 15 I had two great relationships with women. I did not understand it at the time, but unconsciously I was treating them exactly how women want to be treated. They were like lieutenants in my army. They both loved me very much.

Later, I became very weak with women... I had one relationship which was very bad. I deferred too much, I indulged her anger, negativity, too much. I did not understand how they want us to react to that.

Women want us to be strong, but they also want us to be good. No woman wants to be with a tyrant. At the same time, it is impossible for them to love us if we are weak. It is a big challenge, but we can develop into men in the real sense of the word.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 10:30:52 PM by Alexander »
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"I saw all things gathered in one volume by love - what, in the universe, seemed separate, scattered." (Canto 33)

Jhanon

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Re: Manhood - Gurdjieff
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2014, 10:38:35 PM »
I fully agree, Alexander. It's an interesting mechanism I will contemplate further.

Something slightly related I want to ask of you. In reflection of what I wrote concerning my partner, I began to notice some things.

We both were very kind, wise, and loving when youths. High school turned us into an identity that caused a lot of frustration and upset. We met while we were in our 20's, and both of us were basically in the same phase of development, only I a little further than her perhaps because I've been in this life a few more years than her. We didn't "work" then.

Then I came back about 5 years later, having broken into either stream-entry or once-returner, and she gravitated toward me almost instantly. She was still the brat which high-school gave rise to, but I could see something else in there. So, I took her on walks and we went to places of solitude and talked. Eventually, she took some psychedelics I gave her, and I guided her to what I had experienced under them. There was a lot of release and crying. Again, another night we did the same. I touched her back, and tried to take away all that high school conditioning through the touch. Surprisingly, it worked. But I accidentally absorbed it, which took a week to work off.

And now, we don't fight. I mean, we're more amicable than any couple I've ever witnessed in-depth in real life. Here's my theory.

I think her and I both came into this life as Stream-Winners, then went into the dark night (high school and after.) I broke through the dark night into once-returner, and helped her to the same. Then I progressed to non-returner in the last few months. Is this possible? She doesn't meditate hardly at all, but she has obvious fruits. When we first saw each other, we knew each other.

Is this possible? Or, do you have an alternate theory?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 10:40:41 PM by Jhanon »

Alexander

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Re: Manhood - Gurdjieff
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2014, 11:00:51 PM »
Yes it sounds true. I have not had experience of a Noble couple, but then again I do not get out much. I would not be surprised. They could help one another: and as Gurdjieff said, the man especially is important in helping the woman get to heaven. So I believe what you say.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 11:19:44 PM by Alexander »
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"I saw all things gathered in one volume by love - what, in the universe, seemed separate, scattered." (Canto 33)

Jhanon

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Re: Manhood - Gurdjieff
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2014, 12:02:35 AM »
Yes it sounds true. I have not had experience of a Noble couple, but then again I do not get out much. I would not be surprised. They could help one another: and as Gurdjieff said, the man especially is important in helping the woman get to heaven. So I believe what you say.

Exactly. That's what spurred the response above. I can never see why she stays with me, or why she is so happy with me, because I don't give her anything that a worldly man does. A few days ago, I began to notice that our energies, qualities, and elemental balances complimented each other; but it didn't seem quite enough for us to bond so quickly and closely. But, this post you made has really put the pieces of the puzzle together.

Jhanon

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Re: Manhood - Gurdjieff
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2014, 12:06:26 AM »
What a trip, Alexander. Man, what a trip.

You know I have to spend quite a bit of time around worldly people in my daily life, and their views are always forcing themselves on me. And from their view, I have an extremely difficult and unfortunate life.

But from the consolidated, right view I get when I speak with Noble Ones like you, I feel like I've got a fucking treasure trove of a life. Pardon my language, but for some reason I've been using words like that. Is it against the forum rules? I know I probably shouldn't, but something inside me has been having me drop curse words. It's very strange, but has strangely had a positive impact on people I counsel. They tell me "I feel like you're an ordinary person when you use language like that. Otherwise, you seem like some purified saint that I could never be--which makes it hard to relate."
« Last Edit: August 12, 2014, 12:09:56 AM by Jhanon »

Jhanon

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Re: Manhood - Gurdjieff
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2014, 08:37:56 AM »
This, and some of the above, may need to go under separate thread. Like my blog, or "mystic relationships". But I have something very interesting to state before I forget or fall asleep. I think it belongs in discerning attainment or something. It's all over the place.

Tonight I asked my partner many questions which provided evidence to her having attained some level of enlightenment. It's interesting, though, as she was the one who brought up the subject right before I was going to.

1) Without my prompting, she referred to the time we were together and I put my hand on her back and pulled all the negative conditioning from the last 15 years out. As you may remember, it took at least a weak for me to recover. I felt weak, insecure, scared--like the old me. She says that after that day, she has felt more secure, and is no longer unhappy. And so it literally seems I've helped her "get to heaven."

2) For the last 4 months, she's been getting energy surges or blasts often and everyday. During our 1.5 hour phone chat, she had 3 or 4 of them. She knows how important spirituality is to me, so you can see how it is a shock for her to say this and me not known about it earlier. She never seems to talk about it, because of some baggage from Christianity when she was young. She says she tries to avoid the energy surges, block them, because she doesn't want people to see her arms and wonder why the hairs are all on end like that.

3) At least one of her vivid dreams felt like it lasted for 3 days (when it was only a few hours that she was asleep.) I asked her if it ended in death, and she said "Yes."

4) She feels like she's being twisted, turned, and shaken when she lays in bed. She recently even had an OOBE where she simply sat up in bed, saw red energy in her hands and feet with orange and yellow throughout the rest of her body. She looked in the direction of my daughters room, and could see a red glow coming from where our daughter was sleeping. There was a wall completely blocking visual, and yet she saw the red.

She may have also said that she saw some strange strings, like puppet master, connected to bodies. I'm not certain about that one. It may be mixing this up with another friend whose discernment and observation aren't as refined.

5) Lastly, she says when she was younger she had difficulty sleeping. She would close her eyes and see (i think she said) a dark circle with yellow light behind it. And it was surrounded by kaleidoscope. That sounds like the mandela that monk mentioned to me.

6) She used to sleep walk, except she was conscious and couldn't stop any of her movements. So, it was sleep paralysis, except her body was moving on it's own, and she was just watching. This is crazy sounding. Has anyone heard of this?
You'd think that alone could get her into the stream at least. She is extremely observant and honest. I do not expect any of this information to false in it's primary details.

After i heard all this, I was like "Dude! We're freaking Enlightened Parents!? Are you serious!? That's awesome!" (Which was my way of saying, I am so pleased and feel confident about our future.)

For me; I remember the first "awakening energy blast" was followed by many more less intense surges, at least everyday, for many months. Then they would slow, and I hit another "awakening energy blast" moment, and the softer one's were back for a while again. Then there is the last "awakening energy blast" I experienced while reading Eckhart Tolle's book; the Power of Now. That was followed by more energy surges, vibrating/shaking in bed, and vivid dreams I still remember to this day.

I never considered she might be enlightened, before. Because she doesn't formally meditate (to my knowledge.) But, now I'm remembering that I wasn't intentionally meditating IN THE MOMENT that I got blasted by Eckhart Tolle's book. I was just being aware of the charisms while I read. But, that's meditative absorption, isn't it? LOL. So, she must be doing this. She must be paying attention to a charism.

Do you think it is possible to become enlightened (stream winner or once-returner) without formal meditation? It seems Eckhart Tolle did. He appeared to contemplate himself into absorption of the in-between immaterial and material samadhi, like I have done myself.

Do we agree that she sounds at least a stream-winner?

Again, I am very tired. This may need to be moved to a efferent thread. Can't keep eyes open anymore. Too tired.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2014, 09:10:36 AM by Jhanon »

Alexander

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Re: Manhood - Gurdjieff
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2014, 04:14:52 PM »
I don't want to guess what she is, I don't know enough.
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"I saw all things gathered in one volume by love - what, in the universe, seemed separate, scattered." (Canto 33)

Jhanon

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Re: Manhood - Gurdjieff
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2014, 06:23:38 PM »
That's interesting, because she seems to describe everything I have described. I always wondered how it could be that she was so consistently noble in everything she did. Anyway, we will leave it open to interpretation for anyone else who might be able to discern. Or, I will add additional details as they arise.

Zack

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Re: Manhood - Gurdjieff
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2014, 10:18:04 PM »
They could help one another: and as Gurdjieff said, the man especially is important in helping the woman get to heaven.

I admit I don't know much about Gurdjieff and the actual nuances of what he said, but to me this sounds like patriarchal nonsense. I also don't have much of a clue about what it takes to get to heaven, but I do know I can imagine there are many, many women out there that could muster a lot more grace and acceptance in the face of life than whatever little I've managed thus far.

Alexander

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Re: Manhood - Gurdjieff
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2014, 12:14:16 AM »
I admit I don't know much about Gurdjieff and the actual nuances of what he said, but to me this sounds like patriarchal nonsense. I also don't have much of a clue about what it takes to get to heaven, but I do know I can imagine there are many, many women out there that could muster a lot more grace and acceptance in the face of life than whatever little I've managed thus far.

Indeed - we men are such perfidious oppressors of women. That is the view of our time. But, I suggest you to take a poll of everyone on the forum. You'll find that 90-100% of us are male. Keep in mind I had the same view as yours for a long time: but the more I matured, the more I realized those antique ideas about gender are not as sinister as we think they are.
https://alexanderlorincz.com/

"I saw all things gathered in one volume by love - what, in the universe, seemed separate, scattered." (Canto 33)

Zack

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Re: Manhood - Gurdjieff
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2014, 12:49:28 PM »
Yes, I realize most everyone here is male, which is something I've been aware of and wondered about. Gender is an interesting topic which I don't know enough about to make a whole lot of statements on, but I don't see any particular sex or gender has having more of a yearning for the divine, or facility in meeting it.

From the little I read last night, Gurdjieff sounds like he came from a deeply patriarchal culture and had some pretty strong views that I immediately question, at the very least. I know I have been damaged by the patriarchy and its effects are folded deep into my being, and I've often found myself in a confused place when resisting or being made aware of that, so I'm just disinclined to accept such a blunt view as his.

Jhanananda

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Re: Manhood - Gurdjieff
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2014, 02:04:40 PM »
On the gender debate.  My case histories show that there are about equal numbers of men and women who have genuine religious experiences.  I now that we have had a number of women join this forum, and a few have posted comments.

I believe the reason why we do not hear as much from women as we do from men is multifaceted.
1) Women who have religious experiences might be disinclined to participate in a forum on the topic of religious experiences.
2) This forum tends to be somewhat intellectual, as do a fair amount of unpacking of religion.
3) Women might be more inclined to devotion, than philosophy.
4)  Thus, 2 & 3 pose significant reasons why women might be disinclined to participate in this forum.
There is no progress without discipline.

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Cal

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Re: Manhood - Gurdjieff
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2014, 04:49:05 PM »
Resilient women are (Yoda groan). Since we are on the topic, boss, my experience with those of the opposite sex has led me to believe that they feel the charisms differently. There are several that I have spoke with on the subject that have been quite content with the opening of the chakras, which is much more sublte than Jhana. What I mean to say, at least from the few that I feel they have genuine experiences, the charisms to them, would be quite strong in comparison, and with the aformentioned 2&3, they would not share it, not openly.

Blah, brains not working. On another note, this is the first time I've had a cold in almost 6 months, which is quite surprising.