Author Topic: The historical Jesus  (Read 156416 times)

stugandolf

  • Certified Teacher
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 132
The historical Jesus
« on: August 12, 2014, 04:38:38 PM »
Am I to assume you are speaking of the symbolic Jesus, because there is no historical evidence that there ever was a Jesus?  Stu  Additional information:  while in Sedona with Jeffrey  I asked the same question or at least the part about historical evidence and I do not  remember exactly his answer...
« Last Edit: August 12, 2014, 08:11:31 PM by stugandolf »

rougeleader115

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 167
Re: The historical Jesus
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2014, 05:14:57 PM »
There are also two things about our time:

First, it is a very pluralistic time, with free religion and many things to study. I would say that while this is good for us, it is bad for laymen, because it makes the world confusing.

Second, we are entering a skeptical time. People believe in this new cult of science. Empirical inquiry cannot answer metaphysical questions... but because of that everyone says the spiritual is nonsense. This and the above prevent many spiritual people from appearing.

I was just pondering over this this morning when I saw a very high rated and liked comment on reddit. It went on to explain everyones importance in the universe because we can move matter and change the world and how great of a gift it is to be able to do that. Also that our unique individual perspepctive of things is important. While I agree to a point, I couldn't help but notice how "heady" or intellectual the whole idea was. It just seemed like a more complex belief system that is "backed" with science. I understand that not all science is unusable, but it bothers me that A) people so readily believe because it is science, and B) It does not solve my existential problems/questions, so why is it enough for them? I'm not going anywhere with this, but I wanted to say that since you happened to post this right after I saw that.

Am I to assume you are speaking of the symbolic Jesus, because there is no historical evidence that there ever was a Jesus?  Stu

I hope someone answers this because I have heard that there is no evidence once or twice, but I haven't a clue who is right. I want to lean on the side of him having existed, but I would rather know the truth of it. He is still an inspiration even if only symbolically.

Alexander

  • (Shivaswara)
  • vetted member
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1123
Re: The historical Jesus
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2014, 05:22:55 PM »
Am I to assume you are speaking of the symbolic Jesus, because there is no historical evidence that there ever was a Jesus?  Stu

This is a very big question, and we would have to discuss for a long time to fully explore it. Initially these are my thoughts:

(1) Yes, I believe in the existence of the historical Jesus
(2) However, when I reference Jesus I mean an amalgamation of the historic and artistic. The latter Jesus is the one who was created over centuries of storytelling, legend, iconography, etc. I consider this latter Jesus very beautiful so I use it for my POV.

Generally, if I say "Jesus" I mean the historic character. If I say "Christ" I mean the artistic character/the resurrected version of him. This latter Christ would be Christ the Pantokrator, etc.

To address your question more specifically, there are 2 things to explore. First, among scholars there are 2 approaches to early Christianity. One is called the historicist approach. This relies on oral tradition and the Christian texts themselves. Second, there is what is called the historical Jesus approach. This is what you are referencing in your comment. This 2nd approach is very rigorous. It tries to explore early Christianity using only textual evidence independent of the Christian sources. It also does not use the oral tradition.

Unfortunately, this perspective has many problems. As far as I am aware there is 1 written source outside the early Christians, and that is Josephus. His writing is also very nebulous and vague... so it makes it hard to say anything about Jesus.

Recently the historical Jesus approach has gotten a lot of criticism. This is because scholars know we cannot impose modern standards on the past. There are simply no sources we can use. A similar issue has arisen with the historical approach and Mohammed. If we try to impose the same standards, we cannot know anything about him.

So what I am saying is the historical approach is correct; however, we cannot reasonably use it because there are no sources available. If we use it we have to cast doubt on the existence of Jesus. But, with the oral tradition and Christian texts we are able to conclude the opposite.

Finally, to enrich our understanding of Christianity, let's compare the resurrection in the 4 canonical Gospels:

Mark - based on apparitions of Jesus after his death
Matthew - Jesus returns spiritually
Luke - Resurrection takes on physical characteristics
John - full bodily resurrection: i.e., Thomas touching the wounds, etc

Can we see how these are different? How they contradict one another? This is one of my favorite things about Christianity. What does it mean?

I think it is interesting that the evangelists were not worried about getting Jesus 100% correct. They enriched their description of him artistically. They understood that the point was more than the historic. It is a similar case with Plato and Socrates. In the dialogues Plato was not too worried about getting Socrates 100% accurate. The point was to preserve a person for posterity.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2014, 05:47:06 PM by Alexander »
https://alexanderlorincz.com/

"I saw all things gathered in one volume by love - what, in the universe, seemed separate, scattered." (Canto 33)

Alexander

  • (Shivaswara)
  • vetted member
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1123
Re: The historical Jesus
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2014, 05:51:59 PM »
Tom Wright on the historical Jesus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bm4iOlRCLMI

I do not 100% agree with Tom Wright, but I respect his views quite a lot.
https://alexanderlorincz.com/

"I saw all things gathered in one volume by love - what, in the universe, seemed separate, scattered." (Canto 33)

Alexander

  • (Shivaswara)
  • vetted member
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1123
Re: The historical Jesus
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2014, 08:05:50 PM »
I have split the topic yet again into Remembering past lives, arahantship
https://alexanderlorincz.com/

"I saw all things gathered in one volume by love - what, in the universe, seemed separate, scattered." (Canto 33)

Michel

  • Guest
Re: The historical Jesus
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2014, 05:45:42 PM »
Am I to assume you are speaking of the symbolic Jesus, because there is no historical evidence that there ever was a Jesus?  Stu  Additional information:  while in Sedona with Jeffrey  I asked the same question or at least the part about historical evidence and I do not  remember exactly his answer...
I think that Jhananda believes that there was a historical Jesus based on what he's written. I would be surprised otherwise. 
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 05:51:14 PM by Michel »

Jhanananda

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4629
    • Great Wesern Vehicle
Re: The historical Jesus
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2014, 11:54:57 AM »
Interesting topic, friends.  There is no evidence that Jesus existed, nor is there any evidence that Siddhartha Gautama existed.  It gets even worse when we consider that all religions have hopelessly undermined the original message of their progenitors.  However, the story of the progenitors of the various religions are sufficiently compelling; and even consistent, that I find it reasonable to accept that most of them did exist.

The mission for the mystic is to decipher the religion's progenitors from the fiction that is too often aggressively marketed.  This is what I call "unpacking religion."  We have done quite a bit of work on this topic here, and I hope, and expect, that far more will be done on this topic here in the future.
There is no progress without discipline.

If you want to post to this forum, then send me a PM.

Michel

  • Guest
Re: The historical Jesus
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2014, 12:49:14 PM »
Published on Alternet (http://www.alternet.org)
Home > 5 Reasons to Suspect Jesus Never Existed
________________________________________
AlterNet [1] / By Valerie Tarico [2]
 
5 Reasons to Suspect Jesus Never Existed
 
 
August 22, 2014  |   

Most antiquities scholars think that the New Testament gospels are “mythologized history.”  In other words, they think that around the start of the first century a controversial Jewish rabbi named Yeshua ben Yosef gathered a following and his life and teachings provided the seed that grew into Christianity.

At the same time, these scholars acknowledge that many Bible stories like the virgin birth, miracles, resurrection, and women at the tomb borrow and rework mythic themes [3] that were common in the Ancient Near East, much the way that screenwriters base new movies on old familiar tropes or plot elements. In this view, a “historical Jesus” became mythologized [4].

For over 200 years, a wide ranging array of theologians and historians—most of them Christian—analyzed ancient texts, both those that made it into the Bible and those that didn’t, in attempts to excavate the man behind the myth.  Several current or recent bestsellers take this approach, distilling the scholarship for a popular audience. Familiar titles include Zealotby Reza Aslan and  How Jesus Became Godby Bart Ehrman [5].

But other scholars believe that the gospel stories are actually “historicized mythology.”  In this view, those ancient mythic templates are themselves the kernel. They got filled in with names, places and other real world details as early sects of Jesus worship attempted to understand and defend the devotional traditions they had received.

The notion that Jesus never existed is a minority position.  Of course it is! says David Fitzgerald, author of Nailed: Ten Christian Myths That Show Jesus Never Existed at All [6].For centuries all serious scholars of Christianity were Christians themselves, and modern secular scholars lean heavily on the groundwork that they laid in collecting, preserving, and analyzing ancient texts. Even today most secular scholars come out of a religious background, and many operate by default under historical presumptions of their former faith.

Fitzgerald is an atheist speaker and writer, popular with secular students and community groups. The internet phenom, Zeitgeist the Movie [7] introduced millions to some of the mythic roots of Christianity. But Zeitgeist and similar works contain known errors and oversimplifications that undermine their credibility. Fitzgerald seeks to correct that by giving young people interesting, accessible information that is grounded in accountable scholarship.       

More academic arguments in support of the Jesus Myth theory can be found in the writings of Richard Carrier and Robert Price. Carrier, who has a Ph.D. in ancient history uses [8] the tools of his trade to show, among other things, how Christianity might have gotten off the ground without a miracle. Price, by contrast, writes [9] from the perspective of a theologian whose biblical scholarship ultimately formed the basis for his skepticism. It is interesting to note that some of the harshest debunkers of fringe Jesus myth theories like those from Zeitgeist or Joseph Atwill (who tries to argue that the Romans invented Jesus) are from serious Mythicists like Fitzgerald, Carrier and Price.

The arguments on both sides of this question—mythologized history or historicized mythology—fill volumes, and if anything the debate seems to be heating up rather than resolving. A growing number of scholars are openly questioning or actively arguing against Jesus’ historicity. Since many people, both Christian and not, find it surprising that this debate even exists—that credible scholars might think Jesus never existed—here are some of the key points that keep the doubts alive:

1. No first century secular evidence whatsoever exists to support the actuality of Yeshua ben Yosef.  In the words of [10] Bart Ehrman: “What sorts of things do pagan authors from the time of Jesus have to say about him? Nothing. As odd as it may seem, there is no mention of Jesus at all by any of his pagan contemporaries. There are no birth records, no trial transcripts, no death certificates; there are no expressions of interest, no heated slanders, no passing references – nothing. In fact, if we broaden our field of concern to the years after his death – even if we include the entire first century of the Common Era – there is not so much as a solitary reference to Jesus in any non-Christian, non-Jewish source of any kind. I should stress that we do have a large number of documents from the time – the writings of poets, philosophers, historians, scientists, and government officials, for example, not to mention the large collection of surviving inscriptions on stone and private letters and legal documents on papyrus. In none of this vast array of surviving writings is Jesus’ name ever so much as mentioned.” (pp. 56-57)

2. The earliest New Testament writers seem ignorant of the details of Jesus’ life, which become more crystalized in later texts.Paul seems unaware of any virgin birth, for example. No wise men, no star in the east, no miracles. Historians have long puzzled over the “Silence of Paul” on the most basic biographical facts and teachings of Jesus. Paul fails to cite Jesus’ authority precisely when it would make his case. What’s more, he never calls the twelve apostles Jesus’ disciples; in fact, he never says Jesus HAD disciples –or a ministry, or did miracles, or gave teachings. He virtually refuses to disclose any other biographical detail, and the few cryptic hints he offers aren’t just vague, but contradict the gospels. The leaders of the early Christian movement in Jerusalem like Peter and James are supposedly Jesus’ own followers and family; but Paul dismisses them as nobodies and repeatedly opposes them for not being true Christians!

Liberal theologian Marcus Borg suggests [11] that people read the books of the New Testament in chronological order to see how early Christianity unfolded.  “Placing the Gospels after Paul makes it clear that as written documents they are not the source of early Christianity but its product. The Gospel -- the good news -- of and about Jesus existed before the Gospels. They are the products of early Christian communities several decades after Jesus' historical life and tell us how those communities saw his significance in their historical context.”

3. Even the New Testament stories don’t claim to be first-hand accounts. We now know that the four gospels were assigned the names of the apostles Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, not written by them. To make matter sketchier, the name designations happened sometime in second century, around 100 years or more after Christianity supposedly began. For a variety of reasons [12], the practice of pseudonymous writing was common at the time and many contemporary documents are “signed” by famous figures.  The same is true of the New Testament epistles except for a handful of letters from Paul (6 out of 13) which are broadly thought to be genuine.  But even the gospel stories don’t actually say [13], “I was there.” Rather, they claim the existence of other witnesses, a phenomenon familiar to anyone who has heard the phrase, my aunt knew someone who . . . .

4. The gospels, our only accounts of a historical Jesus, contradict each other.If you think you know the Jesus story pretty well, I suggest that you pause at this point to test yourself with the 20 question quiz [14] at ExChristian.net.
The gospel of Mark is thought to be the earliest existing “life of Jesus,” and linguistic analysis suggests that Luke and Matthew both simply reworked Mark and added their own corrections and new material. But they contradict each other and, to an even greater degree contradict the much later gospel of John, because they were written with different objectives for different audiences. The incompatible Easter stories [15] offer one example of how much the stories disagree.

5. Modern scholars who claim to have uncovered the real historical Jesus depict wildly different persons.  They include a cynic philosopher, charismatic Hasid, liberal Pharisee, conservative rabbi, Zealot revolutionary, nonviolent pacifist to borrow from a much longer list assembled by Price [16]. In his words (pp. 15-16), “The historical Jesus (if there was one) might well have been a messianic king, or a progressive Pharisee, or a Galilean shaman, or a magus, or a Hellenistic sage.  But he cannot very well have been all of them at the same time.”  John Dominic Crossan [17] of the Jesus Seminar grumbles that “the stunning diversity is an academic embarrassment.”

For David Fitzgerald, these issues and more lead to a conclusion that he finds inescapable [18]:
Jesus appears to be an effect, not a cause, of Christianity. Paul and the rest of the first generation of Christians searched the Septuagint translation of Hebrew scriptures to create a Mystery Faith for the Jews, complete with pagan rituals like a Lord’s Supper, Gnostic terms in his letters, and a personal savior god to rival those in their neighbors’ longstanding Egyptian, Persian, Hellenistic and Roman traditions.

In a soon-to-be-released follow up to Nailed, entitled Jesus: Mything in Action, Fitzgerald [19] argues that the many competing versions proposed by secular scholars are just as problematic as any “Jesus of Faith:” Even if one accepts that there was a real Jesus of Nazareth, the question has little practical meaning: Regardless of whether or not a first century rabbi called Yeshua ben Yosef lived, the “historical Jesus” figures so patiently excavated and re-assembled by secular scholars are themselves fictions.

We may never know for certain what put Christian history in motion. Only time (or perhaps time travel) will tell.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 12:58:44 PM by Michel »

Jhanananda

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4629
    • Great Wesern Vehicle
Re: The historical Jesus
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2014, 11:41:07 PM »
Thank-you, Michel, this was a very interesting read.  From my own scholarship Christianity has some serious problems with the facts.  If Christianity wants to survive the age of science and intellectualism, then it has to work on critically unpacking their own religion.  They can start with, there was no town name "Nazareth" at the time of Jesus.  Please note I moved this interesting discussion to Unpacking Religion.
There is no progress without discipline.

If you want to post to this forum, then send me a PM.