Author Topic: suicide in the sangha  (Read 82913 times)

Michel

  • Guest
Re: suicide in the sangha
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2014, 08:42:01 PM »
Yes, it is quite an achievement for any enlightened teacher to have produced 500 genuine arahants.  However, there are suttas in the Samyutta Nikaya that shows Siddhartha Gautama asking for a show of hands for how many of each of the noble attainers there were in his sangha.  It also shows his disciples just raising their hands because they thought it would please him.  So, after teaching for 15 years, I find no reason to believe that any enlightened teacher could produce 500 genuine enlightened followers in any age.  More typical of the success of most mystics is to produce one or two genuine enlightened followers.
Oh the suttas and their numbers. Who knows the actual figures?

 I think that producing one or two genuine enlightened followers is a great achievement. Enlightened beings are more than extremely rare. What a precious gift to the world they are whenever and wherever they manifest.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2014, 08:44:40 PM by Michel »

Michel

  • Guest
Re: suicide in the sangha
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2014, 12:00:18 AM »
Jhananda, I get the impression that you think that Mahakassapa and Anuruddha, who were both arahants and excellent teachers of the Dhamma according to how they are portrayed in the suttas - could not have continued the mission of the Buddha after his death? If they where arahants, why couldn't they have carried on the work of the Buddha? Did the Buddha have powers that enabled him to see into the future? If you are right about the Buddha desire to die, then the Buddha must have thought these men inadequate for the task, and thus there was no one to carry on, and so he committed suicide after Sariputta and Mahamoggallana passed away.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2014, 12:24:21 AM by Michel »

Jhanananda

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4629
    • Great Wesern Vehicle
Re: suicide in the sangha
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2014, 02:12:37 PM »
Something I'd ask be considered is proximal meditation to the fully enlightened. Jhanon, who has some measure of enlightenment, definitely has a "proximal" effect on me. As I have gotten more in-tune with the charisms, I recognize this "energy" more readily, and have felt it when he and I have just sat near and had a conversation. Do you not think that the Sangha could have provided a similar effect? That the Buddha just being so near, would not help further those around him? Not to mention, his 2 proclaimed arahants.

I'd like to propose it more possible than not. Not in the actual value of 500, I read somewhere that through oral traditions the number 500 was just used to describe a large gathering, which could be as small as 20. But that already enlightened students (not fully) could be free of all fetters, which could be exponentially aided by just being in close quarters with arahant and deathless.

I recall a PM I sent to you, Jhananada, something about visiting. This energy is what I speak of now.

Even more off topic; Shaktipat and Healing (transferable energy)-Some time back my wife and I were laying in bed. I absorbed to sleep, as I normally do and I put my hand on her back. She freaked, said why is your hand so hot? She felt it with her own hand and said that it was cool to the touch. I have been doing these things quite often and every time I have, I have gotten a noticable reaction from her. This particular night, as I absorbed further, I intentionally placed my hand on her back and directed my energy to her, shortly after I got this reaction.

Back on topic; could this not be the "straw that broke the camels back"? That through all his wisdom and greatness, just his aura was enough to make those of little or no attainment, believe his words? Could they not of felt him, felt the divine while near him? I believe it so. I believe  that those who took their life, did so because they felt his attainment, his aura, his energy, and foolishly thought it enough to break dependant origination. I recall a post about intellectualizing recently, and I agree, it has been in abundance. Yet, this comes more as a feeling to me, an understanding. I will of course, defer to you wisdom, Jhananda, but could you entertain this?
Well, there are lots of sides to what you have brought up.  Yes, there is a "proximal" effect of the charisms.  I have had many people report that I have had an effect upon them, or they had a good meditation, but did not realize that the reason why was because I was in the meditation hall.

There have been negative responses as well.  For instance the delusional paranoid who used to live next to me believed that I as in league with the devil, because he heard the sound charism very loudly due to my proximity to him. 

If the proximity of a mystic were always experienced positively, then there would have been no martyred mystics; however, that is not true.

Nonetheless, I will agree that Siddhartha Gautama's immediate followers would have had the benefit of his proximity, as well as that of his genuine arahats.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2014, 02:16:13 PM by Jhanananda »
There is no progress without discipline.

If you want to post to this forum, then send me a PM.

Jhanananda

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4629
    • Great Wesern Vehicle
Re: suicide in the sangha
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2014, 02:38:50 PM »
I certainly don't take the Nikayas to be accurate in every sense. I'm more than willing to entertain the idea that they are corrupted translations. What attracted me to the GWV was its willingness to unpack all the literature of the mystics. I looked at a lot of other teachers before I came here, and this is where I felt the most comfortable. Unpacking all the mystic's literature is the only way to go, otherwise you're running on a faith based approach, and often I've noticed people who do this, often end up having their faith hijacked and seduced by a charismatic charlatan with dire consequences to their spiritual quest - and that is definitely not the way to do it. I feel sorry for people who end up that way. These people are very foolish. How can you do something like that? It's unbelievably stupid. Ha, I bet that in one of my past lives I did the same damn thing. Hahaha.  In this life I've had an incredible distrust of all religious authority figures and some so-called mystics. I use to through snowballs at the Roman Catholic priest when I was a kid around age ten. So I must have been burned somewhere in the past.
The fact that you think so critically, and your past with the charisms suggests to me that you were most probably a mystic at some level; however, as you have pointed out, there are just too many frauds, and too few genuine mystics, in religion.
I think that producing one or two genuine enlightened followers is a great achievement. Enlightened beings are more than extremely rare. What a precious gift to the world they are whenever and wherever they manifest.
I agree that it is a truly great gift to inspire someone sufficiently for them to become enlightened; and it is truly great gift for the world when a genuine mystic becomes enlightened; however, history shows most genuine mystics are marginalized in most religions and cultures.
Jhananda, I get the impression that you think that Mahakassapa and Anuruddha, who were both arahants and excellent teachers of the Dhamma according to how they are portrayed in the suttas - could not have continued the mission of the Buddha after his death? If they where arahants, why couldn't they have carried on the work of the Buddha?

I find the Pali Canon has the most accurate record of the mystic's experience, and path, than any record I have examined; so I believe it is reasonable to say that Siddhartha Gautama must have left behind some genuine arahats, who preserved the teaching.  This does not mean that I believe the entire Pali Canon is accurate.

Did the Buddha have powers that enabled him to see into the future? If you are right about the Buddha desire to die, then the Buddha must have thought these men inadequate for the task, and thus there was no one to carry on, and so he committed suicide after Sariputta and Mahamoggallana passed away.
Well this brings up several points.  The suttas express that for some reason Sariputta and Mahamoggallana were Siddhartha Gautama #1 disciples, so why were Mahakassapa and Anuruddha not considered #1?

It is just my hypothesis that Siddhartha Gautama was greatly disappointed by the death of Sariputta and Mahamoggallana before his death.  Another possible take on the last days of Siddhartha Gautama, is he was 80 years old.  Old people can have a hard time, and he was a mendicant, so his later life would have more difficult.  Perhaps he intentionally ate poisonous food just because he was ready to end it, but he saw that his body was not ready to drop. However, you can interpret the last days of Siddhartha Gautama anyway that you want.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2014, 12:56:14 AM by Jhanananda »
There is no progress without discipline.

If you want to post to this forum, then send me a PM.

Michel

  • Guest
Re: suicide in the sangha
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2014, 12:01:56 AM »
This is a very interesting late sutta from the Samyutta. It gives us insight into what the Buddha might have felt as he was approaching his end.
I get the impression it indicates that the Buddha felt that he had done his job in teaching the entire Dhamma. He instructed his disciples to "dwell with yourselves as your own island, with yourselves as your own refuge, with no other refuge; dwell with the Dhamma as your island, with the Dhamma as your refuge, with no other refuge." Notice that it's not the usual refuge of the Buddha, Sangha and the Dhamma. To me this implies when you know how to practice the Dhamma, you no longer need to take refuge in the Sangha or the Buddha. There's no need. You're ready to go solo, be a total recluse/ hermit. Of course, when you have attained liberation, then you are ready to come back into the world to help others. I think he felt he succeeded in his mission. 

Quote from: Ill - SN 47.9

There the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus thus:

“2Come, bhikkhus, enter upon the rains wherever you have friends, acquaintances, and intimates in the vicinity of Vesali. I myself will enter upon the rains right here in Beluvagamaka.”

“3Yes, venerable sir,” those bhikkhus replied, and they entered upon the rains wherever they had friends, acquaintances, and intimates in the vicinity of Vesali, while the Blessed One entered upon the rains right there in Beluvagamaka.

4Then, when the Blessed One had entered upon the rains, a severe illness arose in him and terrible pains bordering on death assailed him. But the Blessed One endured them, mindful and clearly comprehending, without becoming distressed. Then the thought occurred to the Blessed One: “It is not proper for me to attain final Nibbāna without having addressed my attendants and taken leave of the Bhikkhu Saṅgha. Let me then suppress this illness by means of energy and live on, having resolved upon the life formation.” sn.v.153 Then the Blessed One suppressed that illness by means of energy and lived on, having resolved upon the life formation.

5The Blessed One then recovered from that illness. Soon after he had recovered, he came out from his dwelling and sat down in the seat that had been prepared in the shade behind the dwelling. The Venerable Ānanda then approached the Blessed One, paid homage to him, sat down to one side, and said to him: “It’s splendid, venerable sir, that the Blessed One is bearing up, splendid that he has recovered! But, venerable sir, when the Blessed One was ill my body seemed as if it were drugged, I had become disoriented, the teachings were not clear to me. Nevertheless, I had this much consolation: that the Blessed One would not attain final Nibbāna without having made some pronouncement concerning the Bhikkhu Saṅgha.”

“6What does the Bhikkhu Saṅgha now expect from me, Ānanda? I have taught the Dhamma, Ānanda, without making a distinction between inside and outside. The Tathagata has no closed fist of a teacher in regard to the teachings. If, Ānanda, anyone thinks, ‘I will take charge of the Bhikkhu Saṅgha,’ or ‘The Bhikkhu Saṅgha is under my direction,’ it is he who should make some pronouncement concerning the Bhikkhu Saṅgha. But, Ānanda, it does not occur to the Tathagata, ‘I will take charge of the Bhikkhu Saṅgha,’ or ‘The Bhikkhu Saṅgha is under my direction, ’ so why should the Tathagata make some pronouncement concerning the Bhikkhu Saṅgha? Now I am old, Ānanda, aged, burdened with years, advanced in life, come to the last stage. My age is now turning eighty. Just as an old cart keeps going by a combination of straps, so it seems the body of the Tathagata keeps going by a combination of straps. sn.v.154

“7Whenever, Ānanda, by nonattention to all signs and by the cessation of certain feelings, the Tathagata enters and dwells in the signless concentration of mind, on that occasion, Ānanda, the body of the Tathagata is more comfortable. Therefore, Ānanda, dwell with yourselves as your own island, with yourselves as your own refuge, with no other refuge; dwell with the Dhamma as your island, with the Dhamma as your refuge, with no other refuge. And how, Ānanda, does a bhikkhu dwell with himself as his own island, with himself as his own refuge, with no other refuge; with the Dhamma as his island, with the Dhamma as his refuge, with no other refuge? Here, Ānanda, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. He dwells contemplating feelings in feelings … mind in mind … phenomena in phenomena, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world.

“8Those bhikkhus, Ānanda, either now or after I am gone, who dwell with themselves as their own island, with themselves as their own refuge, with no other refuge; with the Dhamma as their island, with the Dhamma as their refuge, with no other refuge—it is these bhikkhus, Ānanda, who will be for me topmost of those keen on the training.”
« Last Edit: November 08, 2014, 12:42:02 AM by Michel »

Jhanananda

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4629
    • Great Wesern Vehicle
Re: suicide in the sangha
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2014, 01:01:26 AM »
Yes, Michel, I have often thought of this very sutta, when I found no refuge in any Buddha sangha on earth.  Thus, the true mystics of any age must find their own refuge in a contemplative life that leads to the charisms, because the priests of all religions will marginalize you.
There is no progress without discipline.

If you want to post to this forum, then send me a PM.

Michel

  • Guest
Re: suicide in the sangha
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2014, 09:38:20 PM »
This is the pecking order of all the personalities we find in the suttas. Sariputta was the Buddha's most valued disciple.  It is interesting how the Sangha had so many diverse talents working together.

Quote from: Aïguttara Nikàya

XIV. Etadaggavagga

These are the foremost

1. Pañhama vagga.

188. Bhikkhus, out of my disciples Kondanna who knows realized first. [the first to understand the 4 NT]

189. Sàriputta is foremost for great wisdom.

190. Mahàmoggallàna for supernormal powers.

191. Mahakassapa for observing austerities.

192. Anuruddha for the heavenly eye.

193. The son of Kaligodhaya for birth in high families.

194. Lakuõóaka Bhaddhiya for a sweet voice

195. Piõóola Bharadvaja for the lion's roar

196. Puõõa Mantaniputta to give a dhamma talk.

197. Mahakaccana to explain in short.

 

2. Dutiya vagga

198. Bhikkhus, out of my disciples Culapantaka is foremost for creating mental images.

199. Culapantaka for rolling back the mind.

200. Mahapantaka for rolling back perceptions.

201. Subhuti for dwellling in the forest.

202. Subhuti for receiving gifts.

203. Revata Khadiravaniya to gain the forest perception

204. Kankharevata for attaining janas

205 Sona Kolivisa for aroused effort.

206. . Sona Kotikanna for polite speech.

207. Sivali for gains.

208. Vakkali for release through faith.

 

3. Tatiya vagga.

209. Bhikkhus, out of my disciples, Ràhula is foremost for desiring the training.

210. Ratthapala for going forth out of faith.

211. Kuõóadana for receiving the first morsels.

212. Vangisa for explaining the Teaching.

213. Upasena Vangantaputta for friendliness all round.

214. Dabba Mallaputta for the preparation of beds and seats.

215. Pilindavaccha for adoration by the gods.

216. Bahiya Daruciriya for realizing the Teaching instantly.

217. Kumarakassapa to make friendly verbal arrangements

218. Mahakottita for analytical knowledge

 

4. Catuttha vagga

219. Bhikkhus, out of my disciples ânanda is the foremost for learnedness.

220. ânanda for mindfulness.

221. ânanda for correct behaviour.

222. ânanda for courage.

223. ânanda for attending on others.


224. Uruwela Kassapa for a large number of followers.

225. Kàludayi to reconcile clans.

226. Bakula for few ailments.

227. Sobhita for recollecting previous births.

228. Upali for retaining the discipline.

229. Nandaka for advising bhikkhunis.

230. Nanda for protecting the sense doors.

231. Mahakappina for advising the bhikkhus.

232. Sagata for entering the fire element.

233. Ràdha for explaining the Teaching.

234. Mogharaja for wearing rough robes

 

5. Pa¤camavagga

235. Bhikkhus, out of my bhikkhuni disciples Mahapajàpati is the first to realize arahantship.

236. Khemà for high wisdom.

237. Uppalavannà for psychic powers.

238. Patacarà for keeping the discipline.

239. Dhammadinnà for explaining the Teaching.

240. Nandà for attaining jhana,

241. Sonà for aroused effort.

242. Bakulà for the heavenly eye.

243. Bhaddà Kundalakesà for realizing the Teaching instantly

244. Baddha Kapilàni for recollecting previous births.

245. Baddha Kaccànà for great wisdom.

246. Kisagotamã for wearing rough robes.

247. Singàlakamàtà for release through faith.

 

6. Catthavagga.

248. Bhikkhus out of my lay disciples the first to take the three refuges are Tapassu and Balluka, the

tradesmen

249. Anàthapiõóika, that is the householder Sudatta is the foremost lay devotee.

250. Citta Macchikasandika the householder for explaining the Teaching.

251. Hatthaka Aalavaka to establish liberality, kind speech, leading an useful life and a

state of equality among the others.

 

252. Mahanàma the Sakya is the foremost distinguished devotee.

253. Ugga the householder of Vesàli the most pleasant devotee.

254. Uggata the householder of Hatthigàma for attending on the Community.

255. Surambaññha for reconcillation

256. Jãvaka Komàrabhacca for pleasantness to all persons.

257. Nakulapita the householder the best confide

 

7. Sattama Vagga.

258. Bhikkhus, out of my lay female disciples the first to take the three refuges is Sujàta the daughter of

Seniya

259. Visakhà the mother of Migàra is the foremost female devotee.

260. Kujjuttarà the most learned.

261. Samawathie for developing loving kindness.

262. Uttaranandamàtà for jhanas.

263. Suppavàsa the daughter of the Koliyas the most pleasant devotee.

264. Suppiyà the female lay devotee for attending on the sick.

265. Katiyàni for permanent pleasantness.

266. Nakulamàta, the householder's wife for undivided pleasantness.

267. Kàli Kulagharikà, the female lay devotee for adhering to hearsay.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2014, 12:01:41 AM by Michel »

Jhanananda

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4629
    • Great Wesern Vehicle
Re: suicide in the sangha
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2014, 12:36:11 AM »
Thank-you, Michel, for posting the list of Siddhartha Gautama's favored disciples.  It is interesting to note that the list changes.  I will bet that the Catuttha vagga was composed by Ananda. It is worth noting that the 4 gospels present the point of view character as the "chosen" disciple of Jesus.
There is no progress without discipline.

If you want to post to this forum, then send me a PM.

bodhimind

  • vetted member
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 356
Suicide of disciples?
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2015, 12:27:47 PM »
Well, I was looking at the Samyutta Nikaya and found some of these suttas:

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn22.87

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn35.87

And it seems that these disciples committed suicide, but yet reached final Nibbana.

Channa described these:

Quote
Strong painful feelings are increasing in me, not subsiding, and their increase, not their subsiding, is to be discerned. Just as if a strong man were to split my head open with a sharp sword, so too violent winds cut through my head. I am not bearing up…. Just as if a strong man were to tighten a tough leather strap around my head as a headband, so too there are violent pains in my head. I am not bearing up…. Just as if a skilled butcher or his apprentice were to carve up an ox’s belly with a sharp butcher’s knife, so too violent winds are carving up my belly. I am not bearing up…. Just as if two strong men were to seize a weaker man by both arms and roast him over a pit of hot coals, so too there is a violent burning in my body. I am not bearing up, I am not getting better. Strong painful feelings are increasing in me, not subsiding, and their increase, not their subsiding, is to be discerned.

It feels a little similar to what the Buddha experienced when he shut the in and out breaths. Perhaps the dark night? Or maybe I am just overthinking and that this is just a disease.

Jhanananda

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4629
    • Great Wesern Vehicle
Re: suicide in the sangha
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2015, 01:17:39 PM »
Good work, bodhimind.  I merged your inquiry with a pre-existing thread on the topic of suicide in the sangha.  Here are other links on the subject for those interested:

On suicide and the Dharma (part one) | Wildmind Buddhist ...

suicide Archives - Thich Nhat Hanh Dharma Talks

Buddhist Studies: Suicide - BuddhaNet

Buddhist perspective to suicide | Dharma resources

Buddhism and Suicide - Damien Keown - Urban Dharma
There is no progress without discipline.

If you want to post to this forum, then send me a PM.