Author Topic: Five Ways to Liberation  (Read 6275 times)

Michel

  • Guest
Five Ways to Liberation
« on: January 09, 2015, 06:48:42 PM »
I came across this little gem of a sutta today. It describes five ways to liberation. Especially interesting is the fifth way. See (5). The wording is a little difficult to understand. If I interpreted it correctly, jhana alone is sufficient to take you all the way to liberation. It refers to "a certain object of concentration." I take that to mean a meditation object used in jhana. One need not ponder the dhamma, even though -- one has been exposed to it. But an understanding of the dhamma spontaneously arises as a fruit of jhana.

Quote from: AN 5.26  Liberation - Bhikku Bodhi, trans.

"Bhikkhus, there are these five bases of liberation989 by means
of which, if a bhikkhu dwells heedful, ardent, and resolute, his
unliberated mind-is liberated, his undestroyed taints are utterly
destroyed, and he reaches the as-yet-unreached unsurpassed
security from bondage. What five?

(1) "Here, bhikkhus, the Teacher or a fellow monk in the
position of a teacher teaches the Dhamma to a bhikkhu. In whatever
way the Teacher or that fellow monk in the position of a
teacher teaches the Dhamma to the bhikkhu, in just that way
he experiences inspiration in the meaning and inspiration in
the Dhamma.990 As he does so, joy arises in him. When he is
joyful, rapture arises. For one with a rapturous mind, the body
becomes tranquil. One tranquil in body feels pleasure. For one
feeling pleasure, the mind becomes concentrated.99' This is the
first basis of liberation, by means of which, if a bhikkhu dwells
heedful, ardent, and resolute, his unliberated mind is liberated,
his undestroyed taints are utterly destroyed, and he reaches the
as-yet-unreached unsurpassed security from bondage.

(2) "Again, neither the Teacher nor a fellow monk in the
position of a teacher teaches the Dhamma to a bhikkhu, but he
himself teaches the Dhamma to others in detail as he has heard
it and learned it; In whatever way the bhikkhu [22] teaches the
Dhamma to others in detail as he has heard it and learned it,
in just that way, in relation to that Dhamma, he experiences
inspiration in the .meaning and inspiration in the Dhamma. As
he does so, joy arises in him: Whert he is joyful, rapture arises.
For one with a rapturous mind, the body becomes tranquil. One
tranquil in body feels pleasure. For one feeling pleasure, the
mind becomes concentrated. This is the second basis of liberation,
by means ol: which, if a bhikkhu dwells heedful, ardent,
and resolute, his unliberated mind is liberated, his undestroyed
taints are utterly destroyed, and he reaches the as-yet-unreached
unsurpassed security from bondage.

(3) "Again, neither the Teacher nor a fellow monk in the position
of a teacher teaches the Dhamma to a bhikkhu, nor does he
himself teach the Dhamma to others in detail as he has heard
it and learned it, but he recites the Dhamma in detail as he has
heard it and learned it. In whatever way the bhikkhu recites the
Dhamma. in detail as he has heard it and learned it, in just that
way, in relation to that Dhamma, he experiences inspiration in
the meaning and inspiration in the Dhamma. As he does so, joy
arises in him. When he is joyful, rapture arises. For one with
a rapturous mind, the body becomes tranquil. One tranquil in
body feels pleasure. For one feeling pleasure, the mind becomes
concentrated. This is the third basis of liberation, by means of
which, if a bhikkhu dwells heedful, ardent, and resolute, his
unliberated mind is liberated, his undestroyed taints are utterly
destroyed, and he reaches the as yet-unreached unsurpassed
security from bondage.

(4) "Again, neither the Teacher nor a fellow monk in the
does he teach the Dhamma to others in detail as he has heard
it and learned it, nor does he recite the Dhamma in detail as he
has heard it and learned it, but he ponders, {23] examines, and
mentally inspects the Dhamma as he has heard it and learned it.
In whatever way the bhikkhu ponders, examines, and mentally
inspects the Dhamma as he has heard it and learned it, in just
that way, in relation to that Dhamma, he experiences inspiration
in the meaning and inspiration in the Dhamma. As he does so,
joy arises in him. When he is. joyful, rapture arises. For O n e with
a rapturous mind, the body becomes tranquil. One tranquil in
body feels pleasure. For one feeling pleasure, the mind becomes
concentrated. This is the fourth basis of liberation, by means of
which, if a bhikkhu dwells heedful, ardent, and resolute, his
unliberated mind is liberated, his undestroyed taints are utterly
destroyed, and he reaches the asryet-unreached unsurpassed
security from bondage. ..

(5) "Again, neither the Teacher nor a fellow monk in the
position of a teacher teaches the Dhamma to a bhikkhu, nor
does he teach the Dhamma to others in detail as he has heard
it and learned it, nor does he recite the Dhamma in detail as he
has heard it and learned it, nor does he ponder, examine, and
mentally inspect the Dhamma as he has heard it and learned
it, but he has grasped well a certain object of concentration,
attended to it well, sustained it well, and penetrated it well
with wisdom. In whatever way the bhikkhu has grasped well
a certain object of concentration, attended to it well, sustained
it well, and penetrated it well with wisdom, in just that way,-
in relation to that Dhamma, he experiences inspiration in the
meaning and inspiration in the Dhamma. As he does so, joy
arises in him. When he is joyful, rapture arises. For one with
a rapturous mind, the body becomes tranquil. One tranquil in
body feels pleasure. For one feeling pleasure, the mind becomes
concentrated. This is the fifth basis of liberation, by means of
which, if a bhikkhu dwells heedful, ardent, and resolute, [24] his
unliberated mind is liberated, his undestroyed taints are utterly
destroyed, and he reaches the as-yet-unreached unsurpassed
security from bondage.

"These, bhikkhus, are the five bases of liberation, by means
of which, if a bhikkhu dwells heedful, ardent, and resolute, his
unliberated mind is liberated, his undestroyed taints are utterly
destroyed, and he reaches the as-yet-unreached unsurpassed
security from bondage."
« Last Edit: January 09, 2015, 08:29:33 PM by Michel »

Jhanananda

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4629
    • Great Wesern Vehicle
Re: Five Ways to Liberation
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2015, 12:02:16 AM »
Hello, Michel, and thank-you for posting another inspiring sutta for us to read and discuss.  Knowing that Bhikku Bodhi translated this sutta, then we know that every use of the term "concentrated" is his unbelievably naive translation of the suttas.  Because he does not meditate, then he has no attainment, so we know that he is consistent in his mistranslation of the terms 'samadhi' and 'jhana' as 'concentrate', 'concentrated,' 'concentration.'

When you realize that the terms 'samadhi' and 'jhana' are being mistranslated by Bhikku Bodhi as 'concentrate', 'concentrated,' 'concentration,' then you will realize that the first 4 "bases of liberation" are none other than the 4 jhanas.  What is interesting in this sutta is the fifth liberation described here arises without the use of a skilled teacher, which suggests that anyone in any period can become enlightened as long as they realize most translations of most religious literature are hopelessly mistranslated, as Bhikku Bodhi's translations represent.
There is no progress without discipline.

If you want to post to this forum, then send me a PM.

bodhimind

  • vetted member
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 356
Re: Five Ways to Liberation
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2015, 02:40:04 AM »
Quote from: Jhananda
When you realize that the terms 'samadhi' and 'jhana' are being mistranslated by Bhikku Bodhi as 'concentrate', 'concentrated,' 'concentration,' then you will realize that the first 4 "bases of liberation" are none other than the 4 jhanas.  What is interesting in this sutta is the fifth liberation described here arises without the use of a skilled teacher, which suggests that anyone in any period can become enlightened as long as they realize most translations of most religious literature are hopelessly mistranslated, as Bhikku Bodhi's translations represent.

Thank you for the clarification, that information really helps when I look at the other sutras.

I'm confused about the "object of concentration" => "object of samadhi/jhana" though. Would this mean more of the factors that can be discerned in jhana? Such as piti, etc?

Jhanananda

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4629
    • Great Wesern Vehicle
Re: Five Ways to Liberation
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2015, 02:41:17 PM »
Without translating this sutta for myself I cannot be certain what is meant here by "object of concentration;" however, we do know that Bhikku Bodhi consistently translates the terms 'samadhi' and 'jhana' as 'concentration.'  Thus, it is likely that what is referred to here is the term 'jhana-nimitta,' which is closer to the Christian term 'charism.'  And, we here use the terms 'jhana-nimitta,' and the Christian term 'charism' as synonyms for the nonsensory subjective phenomena that arise during deep meditation.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 11:24:25 PM by Jhanananda »
There is no progress without discipline.

If you want to post to this forum, then send me a PM.

bodhimind

  • vetted member
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 356
Re: Five Ways to Liberation
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2015, 04:07:50 PM »
Without translating this sutta for myself I cannot be certain what is meant here by "object of concentration;" however, we do know that Bhikku Bodhi consistently translates terms 'samadhi' and 'jhana' as 'concentration.'  Thus, it is likely that what is referred here to is the term 'jhana-nimitta,' which is closer to the Christian term 'charism.'  And, we here use the terms 'jhana-nimitta,' and the Christian term 'charism' as synonyms for the nonsensory subjective phenomena that arise during deep meditation.

Thanks for the explanation. That clears things up.

Jhanon

  • vetted member
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 915
Re: Five Ways to Liberation
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2015, 12:52:29 AM »
Wait!

Quote
"(1) "Here, bhikkhus, the Teacher or a fellow monk in the
position of a teacher teaches the Dhamma to a bhikkhu. In whatever
way the Teacher or that fellow monk in the position of a
teacher teaches the Dhamma to the bhikkhu, in just that way
he experiences inspiration in the meaning and inspiration in
the Dhamma.990 As he does so, joy arises in him. When he is
joyful, rapture arises. For one with a rapturous mind, the body
becomes tranquil. One tranquil in body feels pleasure. For one
feeling pleasure, the mind becomes concentrated.99' This is the
first basis of liberation, by means of which, if a bhikkhu dwells
heedful, ardent, and resolute, his unliberated mind is liberated,
his undestroyed taints are utterly destroyed, and he reaches the
as-yet-unreached unsurpassed security from bondage."

This is basically saying one who teaches and learns in the position of teacher can be liberated? Because, that's kind of what I do--dunno if anyone noticed. Every time I teach, I become ecstatic and have enduring streams of insight.

In fact, it is when I teach that I experience the most profound states of consciousness when I later sit or lay. Absorption happens rapidly on its own at that point--as if it was just WAITING for me to be still.

But in the case of me hiding in a cave and meditating, I do not experience much progress, or joy, or ecstasy. Fortunately, I have documented almost every significant event in my practice. And this is all backed up several times all over the forum, Skype calls, text messages, etc.

Michel, I am very thankful you posted this. I understand now why it is that somehow I can teach and in the process make progress. What I love to do is what I'm supposed to be doing. It's my path.

 Thank you for tolerating my self-centered posts lately, and for the obvious rambling in this post. I am sorry. I just want to make myself as helpful as possible to as many as possible. And that starts within me before it can go to others.

This is awesome! I could never ask for a greater gift, Michel. I am so grateful.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 02:52:25 PM by Jhanon »

stugandolf

  • Certified Teacher
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 132
Re: Five Ways to Liberation
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2015, 02:28:20 AM »
All, I am really impressed with the quality and usefulness, I am a bit of a neopragmatist,  of the posts for the past 6 months or - perhaps even a year or so.  For those of us who taught ourselves meditation, years ago, and those of you who are relatively new, I am amazed that Jeffrey as well as others have stuck together no matter what...  I now have a better idea of the material I need to digest - thanks to you Jhanon for all of the laying out of essential material as well as all of you who have contributed your jhana experiences.   Stu  Veranasi, India

Jhanon

  • vetted member
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 915
Re: Five Ways to Liberation
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2015, 09:55:09 AM »
That warms my heart, Stu. I was feeling this way especially today. And I thank you for taking the time to say so. I feel this is the beginning of a new chapter for the GWV. And I'm grateful to be a part of the process.

I'm pleased you're in India. Sympathetic joy, actually--right on the dot :)

Hope to skype with you someday soon.

Jhanon

  • vetted member
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 915
Re: Five Ways to Liberation
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2015, 02:57:01 PM »
By the way, the fifth and highlighted text of Michel is describing Tolle's path of enlightenment. As does the first describe mine. It is very important this information gets to everyone. And I mean everyone. Thankfully, my path is the first, so it will (if I intend to be totally liberated), which I do.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 05:22:42 PM by Jhanon »

Michel

  • Guest
Re: Five Ways to Liberation
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2015, 08:55:07 PM »
It's up to us to find out, to investigate, if any of these 5 ways do actually lead to enlightenment. Everything has to be proven for oneself.