Bogus suttas from the Pali Canon

[Michel]

These two suttas don't make any sense to me. I don't think the Buddha had such negative views on women; they are not consistent with the rest of the suttas. So I question there authenticity.

AN 5.229 (9) Snake (1)
''Bhikkhus, there are these five dangers in a black snake. What
five? It is impure, foul-smelling, frightening, dangerous, and it
betrays friends. These are the five dangers in a black snake. So
too, there are these five dangers in women. What five? They are
impure, foul-smelling, frightening, dangerous, and they betray
friends. These are the five dangers in women."1229

AN 5.230 (10) Snake (2)
"Bhikkhus, there are these five dangers in a black snake. What
five? It is wrathful, hostile. Of virulent venom, double-tongued,
and it betrays friends. [261 j These are the five dangers in a black
snake. So too, there are these five dangers in women. What five?
They are wrathful, hostile, of virulent venom, double-tongued,
and they betray friends.
"Bhikkhus, this is how women are of virulent venom: for
the most part they have strong lust. This is how women are
double-tongued: for the most part they utter divisive speech.
This is how women betray friends: for the most part they are
adulterous. These are the five dangers in women."1230

Among the four Nikayas, AN has the largest number of
suttas addressed to women,9 but a small number of discourses
in the collection testify to a misogynistic attitude that strikes us
as discordant, distasteful, and simply unjustified. These texts
depict women as driven by powerful passions that impair
their abilities and undermine their morals. At 2:61, the Buddha
declares that women are never satiated in two things: sexual
intercourse and giving birth. When Ananda asks why women
do not sit on councils, engage in business, or travel to distant
regions, the Buddha answers that this is because they are full
of anger, envious, miserly, and devoid of wisdom (4:80). Two suttas compare women to a black snake (5:229-30) in that they
are "wrathful, hostile, of deadly venom, double-tongued, and
betray friends." Their venom is their strong lust, their double
tongue is their proclivity to slander, and they betray friends in
that "for the most part women are adulterous." In 5:55 we read
about a mother and son who were ordained as bhikkhuni and
bhikkhu. They continued to keep close company, fell in love,
and indulged in sexual relations with one another. When this
was reported to the Buddha, he is shown laying the blame on
women: "If one could rightly say of anything that it is entirely
a snare of Mara, it is precisely of women that one might say
this."

Whether these statements should really be attributed to the
Buddha or regarded as interpolations by monastic editors is a
question that may not be possible to settle with complete certainty.
Such statements, however, are surely contrary to the
more, liberal spirit displayed.else where in the Nikayas. Moreover,
in a text like AN, with its many short suttas, it would have
been relatively easy for monks, apprehensive about their own
sexuality or the spiritual potentials of women, to insert such
passages into the canon. These suttas do not have counterparts
in the Chinese Agamas, but that fact on its own is inconclusive;
for many suttas in the Pali Anguttara N ikaya are without counterparts
in the Chinese canon. Other suttas in AN that deal with
sexuality show a more symmetrical approach, such as 1:1-10,
7:51, and 8:17-18, where the sexual attractions of men toward
women and of w omen toward men are precisely balanced.
Quite in contrast to the suttas with a misogynistic tone are
others that show the Buddha acting cordially toward women
and generously bestowing his teaching upon them. He teaches
the lay devotee Visakha how the uposatha observance can be
of great fruit and benefit (3:70, 8:43). He teaches Suppavasa
the merits of giving food (4:57). He explains to Queen Mallika,
the wife of King Pasenadi, the karmic causes through which
women can achieve beauty, wealth, and influence (4:197). He
answers the questions of the princess Cundi on the best kinds
of confidence and virtuous behavior (5:32). He instructs a group
of girls about to be married on how to behave when they go
to live with their husbands (5:33), and he instructs a boisterous
wife about the seven kinds of wives (7:63). He explains to Visakha how a woman is heading to victory both in this
world and the next (8:49). He extols the bhikkhunls Khema and
Uppalavanna as models for his bhikkhuni followers and the
female lay devotees Khujjuttara and Velukantakl Nandamata as
models for his female lay disciples (4:176). It is hard to reconcile
such texts, which display a friendly and empathetic attitude
toward women, with the passages that categorically denigrate
their capacities.

[Jhanananda]

Yes, Michel, these sutta are obvious frauds, as most of the suttas clearly state that Siddhartha Gautama had equal numbers of female and male followers, and equal numbers of female and male arahats.

There is a sutta somewhere, which I cannot at this time put my finger upon it, but it states something like "women cannot become enlightened."  The problem is the sutta has one of the best supports for the mystic embedded in it, so we cannot throwout the whole sutta.  We just have to show part of the sutta is a clear fraud.

[bodhimind]

This came timely. I was just looking at this particular sutta yesterday and wondering how the misogynous view came about.

From what I know, the Taoist perspective on women is that while they are less able to receive wisdom, they do not face lust as a strong hindrance contrary to men. It also wouldn't make much sense to shift the finger for the source of lust to women when the lust clearly arises from oneself...

[Jhanon]

This came timely. I was just looking at this particular sutta yesterday and wondering how the misogynous view came about.

From what I know, the Taoist perspective on women is that while they are less able to receive wisdom, they do not face lust as a strong hindrance contrary to men. It also wouldn't make much sense to shift the finger for the source of lust to women when the lust clearly arises from oneself...

Word

Yes, Michel, these sutta are obvious frauds, as most of the suttas clearly state that Siddhartha Gautama had equal numbers of female and male followers, and equal numbers of female and male arahats.

There is a sutta somewhere, which I cannot at this time put my finger upon it, but it states something like "women cannot become enlightened."  The problem is the sutta has one of the best supports for the mystic embedded in it, so we cannot throwout the whole sutta.  We just have to show part of the sutta is a clear fraud.

We had a good laugh about that a little while back.

[Jhanananda]

This came timely. I was just looking at this particular sutta yesterday and wondering how the misogynous view came about.

From what I know, the Taoist perspective on women is that while they are less able to receive wisdom, they do not face lust as a strong hindrance contrary to men. It also wouldn't make much sense to shift the finger for the source of lust to women when the lust clearly arises from oneself...

I agree

[Michel]

Yes, Michel, these sutta are obvious frauds, as most of the suttas clearly state that Siddhartha Gautama had equal numbers of female and male followers, and equal numbers of female and male arahats.

There is a sutta somewhere, which I cannot at this time put my finger upon it, but it states something like "women cannot become enlightened."  The problem is the sutta has one of the best supports for the mystic embedded in it, so we cannot throwout the whole sutta.  We just have to show part of the sutta is a clear fraud.

You read stuff like this and you wonder what else they may have altered in the discourses to suit their agenda.

[Jhanananda]

You read stuff like this and you wonder what else they may have altered in the discourses to suit their agenda.

That is the problem with religious literature and its translation.  When I began to examine the Pureland Buddhist Canon was when I realized that the Pureland Buddhist just completely rewrote the Buddhist Canon to suit themselves.  The same is true for the Sanskrit Buddhist Canon, and hte Tibetan Buddhist Canon.

[Sam Lim]

One of the reasons I don't really read the suttas or any holy book. I let my meditation (jhanas) teach me. Remember, Siddartha didn't use any holy books either.

[Jhanananda]

There were no books around the time of Siddhartha Gauatama, but he worked within the religio-philosophical-contemplative system of his day.  I expect if there were books at his time, then he is likely to have used them for guidance and inspiration.  What we are finding is critical thinking needs to be employed when using religious books for guidance, as this thread is underscoring.

[Sam Lim]

There were no books around the time of Siddhartha Gauatama, but he worked within the religio-philosophical-contemplative system of his day.  I expect if there were books at his time, then he is likely to have used them for guidance and inspiration.  What we are finding is critical thinking needs to be employed when using religious books for guidance, as this thread is underscoring.

He had several teachers or gurus but he remember that once he had experience the jhanas and then go back to it. I think letting go of his earlier teachings and sat under a tree for six years until he reached enlightenment. That to me is going without all those. That's where the kalamas sutta came in. That is, if the story is true.

Yet we also have to contend with translation bias and incorrect translation. Another factor is that the sutta is passed through word of mouth. Things change after a century or so. Even though I do find that those I read about jhanas do ring true with my experience.

Sometimes critical thinking can only go so far. The only thing that one can do is compare one's experience with what is written, insofar as one's experience goes.

[Jhanananda]

Sometimes critical thinking can only go so far. The only thing that one can do is compare one's experience with what is written, insofar as one's experience goes.

I completely agree, and that is how I work.

[kiddhamma]

Sometimes critical thinking can only go so far. The only thing that one can do is compare one's experience with what is written, insofar as one's experience goes.

I completely agree, and that is how I work.

I'm wondering how one who has not experienced too much should approach the suttas then? I would love to study the suttas in order to deepen my practice, however, I'm far too aware of mistranslations. How would you guide someone in my position on their sutta journey?

[Sam Lim]

One step at a time. Once you have experience something, go to the suttas. Alternatively, you can read some of the suttas contained in the Great Western Vehicle website. I suspect most of the translation are done by Jeff.

http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/about.html

[Jhanananda]

I'm wondering how one who has not experienced too much should approach the suttas then? I would love to study the suttas in order to deepen my practice, however, I'm far too aware of mistranslations. How would you guide someone in my position on their sutta journey?

Read all literature, especially religious literature, critically.

[Frederick]

I agree. Plus, I might add that one might also ask what one is looking for.

For example, Jeffrey pointed out that some meditation techniques work better than others while some don't work at all.

Also, I ask where they are leading us. Are they asking us to be worse people? Do they make any sense.

Over time, I have found that things that did not make any sense, after a few years, sometimes make more sense.