why do we end a sit?

[baldbudgie]

Hello Seekers

I am interested in why people end the sitting/lying meditation session??

Myself it can be from a few reasons, Hunger, pain, boredom, restlessness, pull of the outside world.

In one of the Suttas in the middle length discourses (can't remeber which one) some one was asking the buddha about who was happier the buddha or the king, and basically he said something along the lines of I can sit for 7 days with a happy mind can the king? it may not of ready exactly like that but you get the jist.

So why is it we end the sit??? I have noticed if there a desire within to end the sit (a desire to do something else, a desire to get up because of pain) and we just let go of this desire we can carry on meditating it is the desire that pulls us out (a bit like the craving and samsara continuing really)

So what do seekers think or experience, is it a case of just putting off the desire and staying in meditation for as long as one pleases? or does it go beyond that is it a case of not being able to come out of meditationeven if one so desires, I know the heavy Jhana lot would say the jhana ends when it whats and not when u want it too................

And what has the length of sit got to do with it all anyway? I know Ajaha Chah said something along the lines of so what if u can sit for 4 hours, chickens can sit for 6...............

Thanks

[Jhanananda]

Interesting question baldbudgie.  I found when I sat as long as the jhana lasted, then it might be a 1 hour sit, or a 3 hour sit.  So far it has never been more than 3 hours of sitting meditation. So, I just sit until it is over.

About 10 years ago I spent most of 2 years camping on wilderness retreat.  At that time I decided to see just how much sitting meditation I could sustain for an indefinite period of time.  I found that if I sat this body in meditation pose, in jhana, for more than 6 hours/day, then it would get sciatica, and I would not reap any additional benefit from sitting practice.  So, 6 hours/day is this body's limit for a long term retreat. 

This also brings to mind the claims that some people have sat in mediation unmoving for days at a time.  Well, I do not believe it.  It is just one of those many fantastic stories that religions depend upon for their daily bread.

[bodhimind]

I don't have a deep enough experience, but to my limited experience, I've found that the actual intention that I set before the session can determine how long I sit. I found that it's somewhat similar to waking up automatically at 8am when I tell myself the night before to wake up at 8am. If I feel this subconscious tendency to wake, then I will get distracted and I feel like I rouse from it.

It's not much of a boredom though, it's more of a "this should be enough" thought. I sometimes feel that this might have impeded me from reaching deeper states. I feel as if since I've reached third or fourth jhana, I've "gone deep enough" and I tend to end the session from there. It might be some subconscious thought that told me that it is enough :/

[baldbudgie]

Thanks for the replys.

Jhanananda When you say you sit as long as the jhana last's ( i'm assuming the intensity of the Charisms will subside somewhat???)   Would I be right in saying if you were to revert back to appiled and sustain attantion on a meditation object, this would cause the Charisms to arise again???a six hour sit is some serious sitting do you mind if i asked was it the pain of the sciatica during the meditation that made you come out or was it just the pain was noticable after you came out of the meditation, and looking back there was no noticeable advantage or benefit from such an extended sit??? In those long sits "why" did the meditation end, pain?bordeom?un contentment? or just the ending of the jhana??? (intensity of the charisms subsiding) if it was just the end of the jhana what were the intentions or thoughts at that point? a realisation that "thats it" i'm just trying to get the root of the intention why we move???

I could well imagine that the body would be suffering from some side effects of not moving for a long period of time (after 6 hours I think i would be dead!), I think one of the most important things for me would be the ability to induce a jhana at will with the death period in mind, we would all like to die whilst in jhana, as the Buddha is alledged to have.

Bodhimind maybe when the thought this should be enough arises just take it as a distraction and tend back to meditation, I know I get the pull like you, "this should be enough" even thou there is no pain I personally think it arises from a slight discontentment, as if you were perfectly contentented, why would u mess with success?

And I have noticed this craving/desire what ever you want to call it to move if it can be dropped, then the meditation session will continue..................for how long that is back to the original question, is it as long as u like it too or as long as the jhana holds me??

Personally so far I have never been into a so called heavy jhana state where by I could not come out even, if i wished, Even in the deepest dreams you could come out if you wised to, as a child i perfected the ability to just pop out of a dream before something nasty was going to happen............I rarely go though these nasty experiences in dreams thou sometimes I find it interesting to see how "you" react to such situations as falling to ones death or being hacked alive..............

Thanks for the replys

[Jhanananda]

I don't have a deep enough experience, but to my limited experience, I've found that the actual intention that I set before the session can determine how long I sit. I found that it's somewhat similar to waking up automatically at 8am when I tell myself the night before to wake up at 8am. If I feel this subconscious tendency to wake, then I will get distracted and I feel like I rouse from it.

This is true.  If, for instance, we sit in meditation with the intention that we have to go to work by a certain time, then the session will end early enough so that we can get ready for work.  Whereas, if we sit in meditation with the intention that there is no time limit, then we are likely to sit longer, and possibly deeper.

It's not much of a boredom though, it's more of a "this should be enough" thought. I sometimes feel that this might have impeded me from reaching deeper states. I feel as if since I've reached third or fourth jhana, I've "gone deep enough" and I tend to end the session from there. It might be some subconscious thought that told me that it is enough :/

Yes, if we set a depth limit to our meditation sessions, then we have created another limitation upon the meditation experience. Whereas, if we sit in meditation with the intention that there is no depth limit, then we can go as deep as it will take us.

Thanks for the replys.

Jhanananda When you say you sit as long as the jhana last's ( i'm assuming the intensity of the Charisms will subside somewhat???)   

You are welcome.

Correct.  As the session comes to an end I find the charisms subside and I become more aware of my outer environment.  On the other hand, I have in the past chosen to sit a little longer, and was given some of my deepest and most powerful meditation experiences, after an earlier phase in meditation that might have only gotten to 2nd or 3rd jhana.

Would I be right in saying if you were to revert back to appiled and sustain attantion on a meditation object, this would cause the Charisms to arise again???

I am not sure what you mean here.  If I am already at depth in meditation, at or beyond the 2nd jhana, then applied and sustain attention (vitaka and viccara) have subsided, and the mind is still.  If I have arrived at the charisms, then I am likely to be at the 3rd jhana, or deeper.  So, why would I want to reassert the meditation object to return to the 1st jhana? 

Unless, you mean that your session has naturally wavered such that thoughts returned, which brought you back to the 1st jhana, or no jhana.  If so, yes, one can return to depth by reestablishing the meditation object with applied and sustain attention (vitaka and viccara).  Some have referred to this like surfing the meditation experience, which I believe is a good analogy.

a six hour sit is some serious sitting do you mind if i asked was it the pain of the sciatica during the meditation that made you come out or was it just the pain was noticable after you came out of the meditation, and looking back there was no noticeable advantage or benefit from such an extended sit??? In those long sits "why" did the meditation end, pain?bordeom?un contentment? or just the ending of the jhana??? (intensity of the charisms subsiding) if it was just the end of the jhana what were the intentions or thoughts at that point? a realisation that "thats it" i'm just trying to get the root of the intention why we move???

I could well imagine that the body would be suffering from some side effects of not moving for a long period of time (after 6 hours I think i would be dead!), I think one of the most important things for me would be the ability to induce a jhana at will with the death period in mind, we would all like to die whilst in jhana, as the Buddha is alledged to have.

I believe that you have misunderstood me.  I meant 6 hours of meditation sits per day, not a single 6 hour session.  At that time my sessions averaged about 2 hours each.  The sciatica arose during the day, which made it uncomfortable to sit in meditation in the beginning, so that it became a hindrance. 

It just occurred to me that we can propose an 11th hindrance.  Too much sitting meditation creates the hindrance of bodily discomfort.

[baldbudgie]

Thankyou for the reply Jhanananda



Yes the above is what i was trying to say........................:-)   

I did misunderstand the your length of sit, I did assume it was a 6 hours sit!! but even 2 hours impressive :-)  I would assume meditation lying down is much longer???

Thanks for taking the time to reply

[Jhanananda]

I would assume meditation lying down is much longer???

Thanks for taking the time to reply

Yes, since my sleep has been lucid for more than 40 years, and I tend to sleep about 6 hours per day, then we can say that I meditate for 6 hour periods lying down, which looks like sleep to an outside observer.