Belief in a Creator God

[joelibrahim]

Yes.I get it.We cannot rely on randomness,for sure.But we have to remain open to the unexpected at all times.God is often enough inscrutable in his ways as the Christians like to point out.That's why at times I have trouble with the Buddhist/Hndu one- to- one karmic sequence.It's a bit like the Old Testament eye for an eye in my point of view.

Another possibility that might be worth considering is there is no creator god who interferes in the actions of humans, and bestows material benefits upon the righteous, while punishing the wicked.  After all, history is proof the world has been in the hands of the wicked since the origin of civilization.

As to the issue of a Creator God I would recommend to all the readers to seriously investigate the near-death experiences people report.I myself have written a book on the subject "The Big Questions:Evidence-Based Faith: but there is an abundance of other material out there .IANDS(The International Near-Death Studies group) may be a good place to start.The ways of the Lord are mysterious,not one-to-one good deed, good consequence;bad deed, bad consequence".That is too Aristotelian for my liking.So-called bad things may represent openings or purifications or forms of upliftment for the person involved- not only karmic commerce.

[Sam Lim]

We have investigated about near death experience and even had a member who had a near death experience on this forum. The fifth jhana is like near death experience and Jeff and others would tell you that experience. Up until now, with my OOBE, I have found no evidence of the existence of a creator god. Most near death experience that I have read, project their own ideas of a creator god and not based on evidence.

Here is the link : http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,755.0.html

[Jhanananda]

As to the issue of a Creator God I would recommend to all the readers to seriously investigate the near-death experiences people report.I myself have written a book on the subject "The Big Questions:Evidence-Based Faith: but there is an abundance of other material out there .IANDS(The International Near-Death Studies group) may be a good place to start.The ways of the Lord are mysterious,not one-to-one good deed, good consequence;bad deed, bad consequence".That is too Aristotelian for my liking.So-called bad things may represent openings or purifications or forms of upliftment for the person involved- not only karmic commerce.

The thing to understand, Dr. Kreps, is my point is not to negate the existence of a god-head, but to show that there is no divine intervention into the world, or otherwise the world would be a radically different place.  Otherwise, I agree with Sam, the NDE only proves that there is a spiritual dimension, which people experience based upon their cultural upbringing; such that: Christians are likely to have a Christian influenced transition from life in a body to life as a spirit; Muslim are likely to have an Islamic influenced transition from life in a body to life as a spirit; Hindus are likely to have a Hindu influenced transition from life in a body to life as a spirit; and Buddhists are likely to have a Buddhist influenced transition from life in a body to life as a spirit; etc.

[joelibrahim]

Sorry for the late reply but I need to clarify something important about the near-death experiences as they are an important source of information and knowledge.There is only a very small part of the ndes that reflect previous beliefs and concepts.And many of the accounts fly totally in the face of peoples previous beliefs.For example Jeffrey Long (no relationship to our dear Jeffrey lol) has accumulated hundreds of ndes of atheists and only one of the hundreds was not converted into a believer of sorts.( a most obstinate type one must conclude.)Most of the people claim they were very surprised by what they saw.Some saw relatives they had never met because they had died before they were born and then confirmed the images later in photos.Some people heard the surgeon talking to the nurse in the operating room while they were flat-lined and confirmed the discussion with the surgeon after the event.Enough to blow any materialist surgeon's mind no doubt,as they were clinically dead! Many Christians for example realized that Jesus was not God but a separate personality(the second light they called him).A Christian orthopedist was berated in her own small-town America for claiming that people of all faiths could attain to the Light-which she saw in her own nde.And the quality of the experience had such an ineffable and numinous nature that people often had difficulty putting words to it.So to say that it was just a projection of their previous beliefs is an unfortunate misrepresentation.What is a reflection of previous beliefs is the nomenclature used at times.So if people see a Being of Light some may call him Jesus,others Krishna and still others an angel depending on their religious education.I hope that brings some clarity to the matter.

[Sam Lim]

Sorry for the late reply but I need to clarify something important about the near-death experiences as they are an important source of information and knowledge.There is only a very small part of the ndes that reflect previous beliefs and concepts.And many of the accounts fly totally in the face of peoples previous beliefs.For example Jeffrey Long (no relationship to our dear Jeffrey lol) has accumulated hundreds of ndes of atheists and only one of the hundreds was not converted into a believer of sorts.( a most obstinate type one must conclude.)Most of the people claim they were very surprised by what they saw.Some saw relatives they had never met because they had died before they were born and then confirmed the images later in photos.Some people heard the surgeon talking to the nurse in the operating room while they were flat-lined and confirmed the discussion with the surgeon after the event.Enough to blow any materialist surgeon's mind no doubt,as they were clinically dead! Many Christians for example realized that Jesus was not God but a separate personality(the second light they called him).A Christian orthopedist was berated in her own small-town America for claiming that people of all faiths could attain to the Light-which she saw in her own nde.And the quality of the experience had such an ineffable and numinous nature that people often had difficulty putting words to it.So to say that it was just a projection of their previous beliefs is an unfortunate

No one deny that there are NDE devoid of cultural baggages. Hence more "authentic" in nature.

So if people see a Being of Light some may call him Jesus,others Krishna and still others an angel depending on their religious education.I hope that brings some clarity to the matter.

That is, to me a projection of their ideas.

[Jhanananda]

I agree with gandarloda on both of his points.  I am not negating the NDE.  In fact my research into NDEs and OOBEs suggests that they are one and the same.  And, I have no problem with people seeing dead relatives in and NDE or an OOBE, or hearing he surgeon and OR discussions during an NDE.  It all supports my central premises and experiences; however, my point also is that some people do have a cultural filter on the NDE/OOBE experience.

The NDE/OOBE would suggest that all religions are mostly wrong, and we should just stick to the raw experience.  "Just the facts mam.  Just the facts."

[joelibrahim]

Au contraire.I think you will find in the ndes support for many of the religious beliefs in all traditions.Personally I think the ndes were sent to offer an irrefutable proof of the existence of the after-life and the soul.But people(like the scientific materialists) will still try to refute it if it doesn't suit their biases.

[Jhanananda]

Au contraire.I think you will find in the ndes support for many of the religious beliefs in all traditions.Personally I think the ndes were sent to offer an irrefutable proof of the existence of the after-life and the soul.But people(like the scientific materialists) will still try to refute it if it doesn't suit their biases.

I agree, and I have already stated, that the NDE is clearly proof that there is a spiritual dimension/soul/after-life (whatever terminology floats your boat); however, it does not prove that there is a Creator God, which is what this thread is about.