Fruit of the Contemplative Life
Fruit of the contemplative life: => General Discussion => : Rodan August 23, 2021, 12:16:30 AM
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Hello everyone,
I thought I would introduce myself here. My name is Rodan and I'm a beginner meditator and have been practicing for approximately 6 months. I wanted to introduce myself and illustrate my practice and progress so far to get some criticism on how I'm progressing. I hope I've submitted this thread in the right area.
Practices
I began initially by dividing my meditation into two sessions, one when I wake up and the other towards the end of my day/night. I do tummo meditation to start my day; this involves visualization of the flaming short a while performing a breath retention. The last meditative session involves visualization of a symbol in my mind.
At the beginning I meditated a total of 40-60 minutes a day, with roughly 20-30 minutes per session. I have increased it to 3 hours a day approximately 3 months ago with a 1 hour session at the beginning of the day to a 2 hour session at the end; Though I will be honest, the quality of the sessions do not match their length. My concentration is spotty and scattered towards the end of most of my sessions.
I spent a month and a half around may fixing my posture as much of my access concentration ended up being ruined by my back tilting forward; I was also taught by a few that keeping a straight back facilitates movements of energies through my subtle body. I began to run into trouble as my posture began to improve; my left arm would develop a phantom pain despite not living a physically laborious life. This pain ruined my sits for weeks until I learned to mindfully 'transmute' the pain into pleasure by imagining energy moving into it. That did not always work and I was forced to simply power through most sits.
As of now, I have more bodily tranquility as the phantom pains and posture have been mostly fixed. What I'm working on now is a lengthening of my access concentration moments.
Experiences
Quite early on before I began working on my posture, my access concentration was able to develop into moments of euphoric bliss. It was amazing; it felt like I was in love again, this feeling would last for a few hours up to 30 hours sometimes. Sadly, I need to work up to the access concentration necessary to achieve it again as I have lost it ever since I began working on my posture; It seems like when I ignored everything around me and delved deeply it allowed me to access these blissful states; once I began applying discipline and watching my body for any signs of departure from good form, I lost my deep access concentration.
In terms of the jhanas. I don't believe I've experienced them fully yet. I believe first jhana is supposedly quite distinct and leaves one without any of their senses in play? I also don't believe my concentration was strong enough to allow me to reach that. I believe I may have dipped my toes into first jhana however; there were times I would feel pleasurable numbing sensations on my face or arms, the spots of pleasure would begin to spread over my face but then dissipate slowly. The other sign for being close to jhana was the blissful euphoria I had mentioned in the previous paragraph.
I believe I may have dipped my toes into the 4th jhana as well; during some of my good sessions, I would often fall into a 'black' void and I would feel like I was floating. I would play around with this feeling and I began to get the distinct feeling of flying above my body, despite feeling the ground beneath me. I would simulate the act of rotating my body and I felt as if my body were truly rotating.
Outside of my sits I've begun to have dreams that were loosely precognitive; I say loosely because they weren't particularly super accurate but too specific to have been a coincidence.
I have begun to have OOBE's as well, I have often woken up in the middle of the night to find myself floating around my home or even in someone else's body watching what they were doing. Prior to a consistent meditative schedule, I had listened to the Monroe tapes regularly and tried to induce OOBE's but was unsuccessful until I began meditating regularly. My OOBE's are also quite short in nature and it's tough to induce them while fully conscious. When I am conscious and wake up from bed and try to induce them, I find myself falling asleep in the 'astral body' as well; it's bizarre. I leave my body and suddenly the astral body i'm in feels exhausted and collapses; then I fall asleep again. Other times, I manage to leave my body but then as soon as I enter my room, I enter a lucid dream; I know it's a lucid dream because I'll see people who shouldn't be around in the physical world at the moment. I'm alone in the home but I'll see members of my family once I've left my room.
Continuing on about my OOBE's. An interesting thing I've noticed is that I only feel the vibrations prior to separating from my body when I fully wake up from sleep; If I immediately exit as soon as I open my eyes, the vibrations do not precede the exit. I'm beginning to think the separations without vibrations might have been induced within a dream, perhaps a lucid.
I have also begun attempting to lucid dream in the last two months. I perform vipassana noting practices and the intensity of the noting varies but I'm seeing progress albeit tiny. I have only had one lucid dream if you don't consider the OOBE's lucid. I'm attempting to induce DILD's (dream induced lucid dreams) through maximizing my awareness. Though my progress is slow, the trajectory seems favourable; memories of my circumstances are beginning to seep into my dreams. I've never been able to recall recent experiences (within hours or a day) within dreams; my dreams are now beginning to remind me of tasks I have to perform or that something seems off; like noticing a price difference for a bus fare that was not ridiculous but simply incorrect as I remember it. My dreams have also begun to be life-like. I used to have crazy dreams where-in I'm flying, or fighting monsters, etc. They are now 90% mundane. Another interesting effect of the awareness/noting practices are that my surroundings have begun to teleport themselves into my dreams. An example of this would be when I was dreaming about being in a zombie apocalypse and suddenly found myself in my bed with the dream continuing on around me; another time, my desk phased in-front of me as I was going about some dream task; it began to overlap with the dream object in-front of me. It feels as if my awareness is pulling my surroundings in. I also wonder if my astral body/dream body is waking up in the middle of a dream and placing itself within the confines of the physical world as I dream.
Thank you for listening. Apologies if the writing is a bit awkward or if I ramble. My writing has gotten worse over the years and I'm excited to share my journey.,
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Welcome Rodan, to the community of mystics. It sounds like you are making excellent progress and are a true contemplative. I would encourage you to continue your practice. I saw your entry when you made it, but want to defer to Jeff to respond to you in detail. Feel free to ask any questions if you are interested in the history of mysticism.
Om Namah Shivaya ;D
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Thank you Alexander, I still have a lot to work on. I'm particularly disappointed with my weak streaks of access concentration during my sits but i'm slowly improving it. My mental and bodily tranquility are improving as I begin to understand how to engage with ekaggata.
I will definitely continue on with my practice. Some of the sessions in the past have been grueling (atleast to me) but I am not the type to give up even if my practice can be sloppy at times.
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I must add to my experience that's becoming more common as of late. Whenever I enter periods of strong momentary concentration especially during vipassana noting, or even during my attempts at access concentration on a sit, it feels as if my body is softening; when I notice the sensations of my mouth, it feels as if my teeth and jaws are melting in a sense but not really. It feels slightly tingly and pleasant like parts of my body are becoming air.
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Welcome, Rodan, and thank you for posting your introduction here. I see that you are coming from several influences, both Tibetan and Theravadan. We here come from these sources but have found that they have a number of traditional accretions to the Buddha Dhamma that conflict with the original message, so I hope you don't mind a few corrections, so that we can all be speaking in the same context.
First: It is just a matter or record here that most of the people here who document attainment of significant fruit (phala) we all practiced, and continue to practice breathe observation, as expressed in the Anapanasati Sutta (MN 118) "Mindfulness of the breath" (http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/pali/Phala_Nikaya/anapanasatisutta.htm).
Secondly: we do not use the terms of "concentration" for samadhi, or "access concentration" we find that in both cases these terms reflect a deep corruption of the dhamma. Please see this discourse for further detail: What is Jhána? (http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/jhana.html)
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Hi Jhanananda,
Thank you for the response and corrections. I will go to those two links for reading and then come back with some more questions. I used access concentration because it's what seems to be thrown around for the state prior to jhana in most meditative circles. I'm not sure what else to call my preliminary state during those euphoric moments; I know it's not a full fledged jhana for sure.
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Another facet of my practice that's been hampering me lately is that I sometimes feel phantom movement or twisting in my body. I feel as if my left side is twisting inward or that my back is bent forward or that my entire torso is twisted around; I open my eyes and I seem to be fairly normal. It often distracts me as I'm constantly pulling attention away from the breath to whatever is going on with my body in an attempt to correct or see what's going on.
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Hi Jhanananda,
Thank you for the response and corrections. I will go to those two links for reading and then come back with some more questions. I used access concentration because it's what seems to be thrown around for the state prior to jhana in most meditative circles. I'm not sure what else to call my preliminary state during those euphoric moments; I know it's not a full fledged jhana for sure.
It is good to read you plan to read the 2 links I posted for you. Basically, we reject the use of the term "access concentration," because in most cases people for whom that term is used are actually experiencing one of the jhanas. our premise here is, if you can recognize a pleasant state that arises during meditation it is most probably the first jhana. And, while we are discussing the stages of jhana, then we have to also acknowledge that the second jhana is defined here as the stilling of the mind.
Another facet of my practice that's been hampering me lately is that I sometimes feel phantom movement or twisting in my body. I feel as if my left side is twisting inward or that my back is bent forward or that my entire torso is twisted around; I open my eyes and I seem to be fairly normal. It often distracts me as I'm constantly pulling attention away from the breath to whatever is going on with my body in an attempt to correct or see what's going on.
So, here the advice we have developed is to move from one stage of jhana to the next deepest level is to observe it with precision, without engaging in cognitive exploration of it, and allow that state to deepen.
So, the feeling of movement is a common experience for deep meditation. So, let it happen, enjoy the ride, and let it take you deeper. Just remember, the phenomena of each stage of jhana is your vehicle to deeper states; and if at anytime the stage you arrive at feels too deep, or scary, then just end your meditation session by opening your eyes, and getting up to engage with the world.
Good work. Keep up your practice, and feel free to report back here, because your reports help others understand their meditation experiences.
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It is good to read you plan to read the 2 links I posted for you. Basically, we reject the use of the term "access concentration," because in most cases people for whom that term is used are actually experiencing one of the jhanas. our premise here is, if you can recognize a pleasant state that arises during meditation it is most probably the first jhana. And, while we are discussing the stages of jhana, then we have to also acknowledge that the second jhana is defined here as the stilling of the mind.
Interesting, I read it and I guess I have hit the first jhana semi-frequently when I felt that euphoria. I assumed I didn't because although the five hindrances disappeared, I still had some semblance of my senses. Most people seem to categorize the first jhana as being more spectacular; some people say there's a rush of electricity and a paralysis of the body and an orgasm. Surprisingly, I've experienced some of these systems as I've gone to bed a few times. I would lay in bed and as I start clearing my mind, suddenly a pleasant numbness begins to spread across my face. It is both painful and pleasurable as it feels like there's a balloon expanding in my head as well, then a rush of electricity seems to pervade through the rest of my body, this usually lasts a few seconds. Funny enough, last night I hit what I thought was first jhana as I lay in bed contemplating emptiness and stilling my mind, all of a sudden a rush of electricity and pleasure pervaded my body and I lost sense of my self. I don't remember what happened afterwards, I think I must have fallen asleep. I've never had those strong experiences during a sit though, euphoria.
I guess I also had a full fledged experience of the immaterial jhanas as well since I had a vague sense of bodily exit and entrance into a void in some of my sits. I was told I have experienced aspects of the jhanas but not a full fledged one yet. I guess this is encouraging! I thought all this time I had not hit a full jhana yet! I felt I was progressing slow for 6 months.
So, here the advice we have developed is to move from one stage of jhana to the next deepest level is to observe it with precision, without engaging in cognitive exploration of it, and allow that state to deepen.
So, the feeling of movement is a common experience for deep meditation. So, let it happen, enjoy the ride, and let it take you deeper. Just remember, the phenomena of each stage of jhana is your vehicle to deeper states; and if at anytime the stage you arrive at feels too deep, or scary, then just end your meditation session by opening your eyes, and getting up to engage with the world.
Good work. Keep up your practice, and feel free to report back here, because your reports help others understand their meditation experiences.
Thank you for the advice!! I will try this out in the next sit. Yes, I agree about reporting. One aspect of this journey that's been frustrating me online is that many people do not really chart the nitty gritty details, especially of things that hamper them. Meditation feels like a craft with technical tinkering that's required.
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Another question I have. How straight must the back be during meditation? I try to keep as straight a back as I can, but the upper back particularly the shoulders, I feel like they don't truly maintain one of the aspects of the 'seven point posture of vairocana': Shoulders spread like a vulture’s wings. Essentially, its' difficult to keep my shoulders arched backwards like a vultures wings as often. How crucial is it to maintain such a composure to attain Jhana? I've read about the importance of posture in the past and its' relation towards cultivating the subtle body, so I'm worried i'm hampering myself.
I'm beginning to notice a slight tingly sensation outside of my sits, especially in my tongue and around my mouth; it comes with the melting sensations I remarked on earlier.
I also didn't mention much about my goals. My overarching goal is to gain a fuller understanding of the universe through living a contemplative life but I have a more mundane secondary goal. My secondary goal is to become such a strong lucid dreamer that I can create persistent realms to study in. Some people find this to be outlandish as reading is considered difficult within a dream but I have not had any such trouble during my non-lucid dreams. Imagine how liberating it would be to spend nights reading and even meditating, without 'anxiety' of life eating away at your time.
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Interesting, I read it and I guess I have hit the first jhana semi-frequently when I felt that euphoria. I assumed I didn't because although the five hindrances disappeared, I still had some semblance of my senses. Most people seem to categorize the first jhana as being more spectacular; some people say there's a rush of electricity and a paralysis of the body and an orgasm.
So, we have to be willing to accept that the 8 stages of samadhi are steps in depth. So, if the first step is a state without sensory experience, then where do we put all of the other phenomena that are associated with depth in meditation? And, most significantly, people who meditate consistently tend to find various observable phenomena. One of those phenomena is the stilling of the mind. And, in our experience the mind becomes still far before the fantastic experiences of deeper states arises, and we here agree it is the second jhana.
Now you are becoming aware of the conflict in interpretation of the 8 stages of samadhi, which suggests there is surely not a single cohesive understanding of samadhi in the 3 vehicles of Buddhis, which means the schools of Buddhism do not even understand the Noble Eightfold Path, because samadhi is the 8th fold.
Religions in general tend to make their religion fantastic and full of mystery. After all, there is no money for the priesthood when the religion is accessible to everyone.
Surprisingly, I've experienced some of these systems as I've gone to bed a few times. I would lay in bed and as I start clearing my mind, suddenly a pleasant numbness begins to spread across my face. It is both painful and pleasurable as it feels like there's a balloon expanding in my head as well, then a rush of electricity seems to pervade through the rest of my body, this usually lasts a few seconds. Funny enough, last night I hit what I thought was first jhana as I lay in bed contemplating emptiness and stilling my mind, all of a sudden a rush of electricity and pleasure pervaded my body and I lost sense of my self. I don't remember what happened afterwards, I think I must have fallen asleep. I've never had those strong experiences during a sit though, euphoria.
I guess I also had a full fledged experience of the immaterial jhanas as well since I had a vague sense of bodily exit and entrance into a void in some of my sits. I was told I have experienced aspects of the jhanas but not a full fledged one yet. I guess this is encouraging! I thought all this time I had not hit a full jhana yet! I felt I was progressing slow for 6 months.
Thank you for the advice!! I will try this out in the next sit. Yes, I agree about reporting. One aspect of this journey that's been frustrating me online is that many people do not really chart the nitty gritty details, especially of things that hamper them. Meditation feels like a craft with technical tinkering that's required.
It sounds like you are definitely experiencing various stages of samadhi (jhana) and you are certainly beginning to understand that being mindfully self-aware through the process of negotiating the 8 stages of samadhi, while submitting to the natural process. And, you might also begin to understand that almost everyone who claims to have authority in an understanding the the religious experience is proving to be an unreliable source. Good work, and keep it up, and keep in touch.
Another question I have. How straight must the back be during meditation? I try to keep as straight a back as I can, but the upper back particularly the shoulders, I feel like they don't truly maintain one of the aspects of the 'seven point posture of vairocana': Shoulders spread like a vulture’s wings. Essentially, its' difficult to keep my shoulders arched backwards like a vultures wings as often. How crucial is it to maintain such a composure to attain Jhana? I've read about the importance of posture in the past and its' relation towards cultivating the subtle body, so I'm worried i'm hampering myself.
I find posture helps; however, I also found deep relaxation is critical to depth in meditation, so I found a daily practice of hatha yoga helped me transform my body so that I could meditate while relaxing and thus acquire depth. So, if your posture is strained, then you will have less success.
I'm beginning to notice a slight tingly sensation outside of my sits, especially in my tongue and around my mouth; it comes with the melting sensations I remarked on earlier.
Yes, we have had many reports here of residual sensations of depth in meditation following the contemplative around. I have had this experience, and I found if I keep my attention upon it, and avoid stress and anxiety, and a still mind upon the present moment throughout the day then I enjoy these "charisms" (nimitta) throughout the day, and when I next sit to meditate I find I drop to depth instantly.
I also didn't mention much about my goals. My overarching goal is to gain a fuller understanding of the universe through living a contemplative life but I have a more mundane secondary goal. My secondary goal is to become such a strong lucid dreamer that I can create persistent realms to study in. Some people find this to be outlandish as reading is considered difficult within a dream but I have not had any such trouble during my non-lucid dreams. Imagine how liberating it would be to spend nights reading and even meditating, without 'anxiety' of life eating away at your time.
This sounds like a noble goal that may lead to greater understanding; however, I find your goal a bit too cognitive. How about you just let your lucid dream state inform you by allowing it to unfold, instead of you informing it by forcing it to be something that it may not be?
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It sounds like you are definitely experiencing various stages of samadhi (jhana) and you are certainly beginning to understand that being mindfully self-aware through the process of negotiating the 8 stages of samadhi, while submitting to the natural process. And, you might also begin to understand that almost everyone who claims to have authority in an understanding the the religious experience is proving to be an unreliable source. Good work, and keep it up, and keep in touch.
Thank you! I will definitely keep reporting back here. I enjoy the investigative process of these practices.
I find posture helps; however, I also found deep relaxation is critical to depth in meditation, so I found a daily practice of hatha yoga helped me transform my body so that I could meditate while relaxing and thus acquire depth. So, if your posture is strained, then you will have less success.
Alright, I will dedicate myself more to yoga stretches. I do downward dog and upward dog for a bit before a session, but I will look into a more rigorous regiment.
Yes, we have had many reports here of residual sensations of depth in meditation following the contemplative around. I have had this experience, and I found if I keep my attention upon it, and avoid stress and anxiety, and a still mind upon the present moment throughout the day then I enjoy these "charisms" (nimitta) throughout the day, and when I next sit to meditate I find I drop to depth instantly.
Yes, I've noticed that too, when I have multiple sessions throughout the day, The subsequent sessions deepen and get easier to absorb myself in.
This sounds like a noble goal that may lead to greater understanding; however, I find your goal a bit too cognitive. How about you just let your lucid dream state inform you by allowing it to unfold, instead of you informing it by forcing it to be something that it may not be?
I understand what you mean by it being too cognitive; many others previously have told me the OOBE and lucid dreaming states tend to dissolve or have difficulty maintaining themselves when the cognitive functions are activated. I'm still unsure myself. Considering your decades of experiences and attainment, I do defer to your thoughts on this but I have such an ambitious regard for what could possibly be done in these worlds. If they cannot be approached cognitively the way one would while awake, there must be another way to consciously extrude knowledge. You mention allowing the dreams to inform me, perhaps I can crystallize a similar process happening unconsciously while asleep or resting; many people including myself often are able to solve issues after a nap or a night of sleep. There's so much to explore. I cannot wait to attain consistent lucid dreams.
Thank you btw, I appreciate your help. This is a great forum/website.
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Tonights session went quite well during my 2 hour anapanasati session. As usual I lose steam approximately an hour into my session but I was able to crawl back a few times and regain features of the first jhana. I didn't experience the strong euphoria as I would get in some sessions but I have a feeling I generated the nimitta. I'd sometimes see blackish/purpleish clouds with very pale and grey white clouds seeping through; as far as I'm aware, I believe the nimitta sometimes comes about as a diffuse white light. Would a greyish white cloud count? I've experienced the white nimitta dot once in awhile in and out of my sits, but they're always incredibly tiny and pulsate in and out of existence. I had a more strongly persistent white shiny dot manifest itself this morning after I woke up, it was quite cool.
After my sit, I felt as if my mind was nearly 'stilled.' Not totally mind you, there were thoughts here and there but I felt like I wasn't thinking at all, none of the usual chatter. My body also felt slightly squishy and soft in some parts such as my head and mouth again. I hope to carry this feeling of tranquility and charism (I think it's a charism?) into my sleep; if not I'll try meditating again for 30 minutes to regenerate the samadhi while laying down.
The more intense yogic stretches have been a great help Jhanananda! Thank you for the suggestion!
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Another goal of mine is to take my meditation sits into the dream realm as well. Should I ever find myself strapped for time in real life, I figure I can use my dream time as an auxiliary session for contemplation.
I' almost meditated in a dream once (not lucidly). I was attempting to sit down and I became accosted by a homeless man who would pelt garbage at me, so I would move away as I'm hesitant to engage in confrontation when I can just leave. He kept following me and interrupted me when I would sit with more garbage before I could start concentrating. The dream ended shortly afterwards. I'm prone to dream interpretation and I feel like the dream was telling me I'm prone to distractions and give way to them too easily.
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Great session tonight, one of my best I think. After the first hour I usually lose steam but I was able to regain a sense of tranquility and contentedness instead of the purple cloud visuals. Normally it's tough for me to hit the first jhana like that after the first hour but I managed to replicate it a couple of times. However, I would say my experience of the first jhana is not 'hard' or deep.
The other thing is, I did not experience a very strong euphoria as I used to, but I felt 'happy' nonetheless. It even lead to a spontaneous smile on my face for most of the second half. I felt some nice vibrations all over my skin as well. The training in tranquility that i've been doing and learning from this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv48zvvjEhs has paid off, as well as the bodily tranquility I've gained through yoga stretches.
Also, I think I've figured out why my mouth and tongue feel tingly or 'squishy' as if they were about to melt. I think parts of my face are falling asleep. I'm not really alarmed by this as I try to practice self-hypnosis induction methods every day to induce relaxation.
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Something I've noticed from my 2 hour anapanasati session today, it drastically diverges in absorption from my visual based meditation where I concentrate on a symbol. I can get into far deeper states with a symbol than I can with the breath. Is this normal?
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Tonights session went quite well during my 2 hour anapanasati session.
This is a very good practice. You may find sitting 1-2 hours 3 times a day can be very fruitful. I found the most important thing is to just keep up a steady daily practice regimen of sitting in meditation for more than 20 minute intervals, and preferably 1-2 hours, and beginning and ending every day with meditation. I found this pattern makes meditation the central feature of one's life, and will bear fruit.
As usual I lose steam approximately an hour into my session but I was able to crawl back a few times and regain features of the first jhana.
The object of steady contemplative practice is just to keep returning to the object of your meditation no matter how many times your mind wanders, and to recognize the charisms (nimitta) and switch to them as the object of meditation. So, you are doing well.
I didn't experience the strong euphoria as I would get in some sessions but I have a feeling I generated the nimitta.
One of the things to keep in mind in a fruitful contemplative practice is to understand you are not going to get the rocket ship ride every time. You just need to show up every day so that you are ready when the rocket ship ride arrives.
I'd sometimes see blackish/purpleish clouds with very pale and grey white clouds seeping through; as far as I'm aware, I believe the nimitta sometimes comes about as a diffuse white light. Would a greyish white cloud count? I've experienced the white nimitta dot once in awhile in and out of my sits, but they're always incredibly tiny and pulsate in and out of existence. I had a more strongly persistent white shiny dot manifest itself this morning after I woke up, it was quite cool.
Another thing to keep in mind is the charisms are abstract, not necessarily concrete forms (rupa). So, it is best to just attend to the general luminance of the field of view, and not pay attention to the shadows, or shapes.
After my sit, I felt as if my mind was nearly 'stilled.' Not totally mind you, there were thoughts here and there but I felt like I wasn't thinking at all, none of the usual chatter. My body also felt slightly squishy and soft in some parts such as my head and mouth again. I hope to carry this feeling of tranquility and charism (I think it's a charism?) into my sleep; if not I'll try meditating again for 30 minutes to regenerate the samadhi while laying down.
Regular practice will result in longer periods of stillness of mind, and will result in the arising of the charisms.
The more intense yogic stretches have been a great help Jhanananda! Thank you for the suggestion!
You are welcome. I am only too glad to be of help to contemplatives seeking fruitful attainment until the day I die.
Another goal of mine is to take my meditation sits into the dream realm as well. Should I ever find myself strapped for time in real life, I figure I can use my dream time as an auxiliary session for contemplation.
I found taking my contemplative life into the dream world very fruitful, but not as a time saving feature, but a way to saturate my consciousness 24/7 in the contemplative life can result in much greater fruit. And, by beginning and ending every day in meditation, then meditation seeps into the dream-time much easier.
I' almost meditated in a dream once (not lucidly). I was attempting to sit down and I became accosted by a homeless man who would pelt garbage at me, so I would move away as I'm hesitant to engage in confrontation when I can just leave. He kept following me and interrupted me when I would sit with more garbage before I could start concentrating. The dream ended shortly afterwards. I'm prone to dream interpretation and I feel like the dream was telling me I'm prone to distractions and give way to them too easily.
While your interpretation of this dream is useful; nonetheless, there are many features of the dreamscape of a contemplative that change as we become lucid, such as being chased of ganged up upon. This I find is due to increasing lucidity. What happens is when people dream they enter the lower astral plane and cooperate in a collective dreamscape, and when they recognize someone among them who is becoming lucid they become frightened and will attack the lucid dreamer. So, the solution is to move up and toward the light, while avoiding the shadow.
Great session tonight, one of my best I think. After the first hour I usually lose steam but I was able to regain a sense of tranquility and contentedness instead of the purple cloud visuals. Normally it's tough for me to hit the first jhana like that after the first hour but I managed to replicate it a couple of times. However, I would say my experience of the first jhana is not 'hard' or deep.
Originally I used to just meditate until my mind stilled and I felt some of the charisms, because I had very poor guidance from meditation teachers. I didn't really begin to experience great depth in meditation until I just sat longer, and found that depth in meditation often came in waves, and if I sat through the first wave, I would often have a second wave, which was often a rocket ship ride.
The other thing is, I did not experience a very strong euphoria as I used to, but I felt 'happy' nonetheless. It even lead to a spontaneous smile on my face for most of the second half. I felt some nice vibrations all over my skin as well. The training in tranquility that i've been doing and learning from this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv48zvvjEhs has paid off, as well as the bodily tranquility I've gained through yoga stretches.
Also, I think I've figured out why my mouth and tongue feel tingly or 'squishy' as if they were about to melt. I think parts of my face are falling asleep. I'm not really alarmed by this as I try to practice self-hypnosis induction methods every day to induce relaxation.
These are common charisms: a spontaneous smile on your face, happiness, and joy in the heart, bodily tranquility, and various "tingly" sensations in the mouth, face and/or body. I found just attending to those various charisms during meditation, and afterwards leads to greater depth during meditation.
Something I've noticed from my 2 hour anapanasati session today, it drastically diverges in absorption from my visual based meditation where I concentrate on a symbol. I can get into far deeper states with a symbol than I can with the breath. Is this normal?
while visual meditation objects are not a feature of the Pali canon, and instead most of the practices are body oriented, but do what works for greater depth.
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This is a very good practice. You may find sitting 1-2 hours 3 times a day can be very fruitful. I found the most important thing is to just keep up a steady daily practice regimen of sitting in meditation for more than 20 minute intervals, and preferably 1-2 hours, and beginning and ending every day with meditation. I found this pattern makes meditation the central feature of one's life, and will bear fruit.
The object of steady contemplative practice is just to keep returning to the object of your meditation no matter how many times your mind wanders, and to recognize the charisms (nimitta) and switch to them as the object of meditation. So, you are doing well.
One of the things to keep in mind in a fruitful contemplative practice is to understand you are not going to get the rocket ship ride every time. You just need to show up every day so that you are ready when the rocket ship ride arrives.
Another thing to keep in mind is the charisms are abstract, not necessarily concrete forms (rupa). So, it is best to just attend to the general luminance of the field of view, and not pay attention to the shadows, or shapes.
Regular practice will result in longer periods of stillness of mind, and will result in the arising of the charisms.
I will ruminate on this!
While your interpretation of this dream is useful; nonetheless, there are many features of the dreamscape of a contemplative that change as we become lucid, such as being chased of ganged up upon. This I find is due to increasing lucidity. What happens is when people dream they enter the lower astral plane and cooperate in a collective dreamscape, and when they recognize someone among them who is becoming lucid they become frightened and will attack the lucid dreamer. So, the solution is to move up and toward the light, while avoiding the shadow.
It's interesting that you say this. I've found that with the greater awareness that I have, the more my dreams tend to take on a more realistic operating routine, as if it's trying to mimic my real life. My dreams used to be filled with objects and scenarios from video-games or films. Now these types of dreams are becoming more rare. Often, I'll even find that if I end up having a ridiculous dream, like I'm a soldier trampling through a city with armaments, parts of my environment will phase into the dream itself. I found myself in one particular dream where I was running from a pack of zombies, then suddenly, my bed phased in and I found myself laying on it while the rest of the dream continued around myself and my bed. In other dreams, I'll find myself suddenly having my fridge and kitchen phased into the dreamscape, as if my astral body had been wandering around the home as I dreamed.
I actually have a couple of questions. I don't know if I can include it in this thread or If I should make one in an OOBE thread. I will make another thread on my OOBE's just in case.
Originally I used to just meditate until my mind stilled and I felt some of the charisms, because I had very poor guidance from meditation teachers. I didn't really begin to experience great depth in meditation until I just sat longer, and found that depth in meditation often came in waves, and if I sat through the first wave, I would often have a second wave, which was often a rocket ship ride.
These are common charisms: a spontaneous smile on your face, happiness, and joy in the heart, bodily tranquility, and various "tingly" sensations in the mouth, face and/or body. I found just attending to those various charisms during meditation, and afterwards leads to greater depth during meditation.
Yes, the oscillatory nature of these charisms are beginning to become clear to me. Though oscillatory, they're gradually increasing in frequency. I hope to build up to longer sits. My goal in a month or two is to incorporate one day a week where I do nothing but meditate for 10 hours straight (maybe a 5 minute stretching break per hour).
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Yes, the oscillatory nature of these charisms are beginning to become clear to me. Though oscillatory, they're gradually increasing in frequency. I hope to build up to longer sits. My goal in a month or two is to incorporate one day a week where I do nothing but meditate for 10 hours straight (maybe a 5 minute stretching break per hour).
This sounds like a good plan for deepening your contemplative life. You could call it a weekly retreat, and I find evidence for this practice in the various religions which has since become Friday noon for Muslim, Friday night sunset to Saturday at sunset for Jews, and Sundays for Christians. And, we find similar weekly to monthly ritual behavior in other religions, such as the Indic communities.
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I think I'm beginning to understand why I have so much trouble with anapanasati. My mind starts to get distracted in the brief space between inhalations and exhalations. When I use a visual object such as a symbol, My mind is constantly refreshing the image and distractions have a harder time appearing and reinforcing themselves.
I've begun intensifying a practice I used to do outside of my sits but got too lazy with in the last few months. I've stopped engaging in or satisfying particular tics or bodily reflexes such as scratching my head or stroking my beard. I'm also going back to completely ignoring sensations of itchiness no matter how painful they are to ignore. It's sort of a part of my vipassana routine to remain mindful of what I'm doing. It's helping to keep me grounded mentally.
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I think I'm beginning to understand why I have so much trouble with anapanasati. My mind starts to get distracted in the brief space between inhalations and exhalations. When I use a visual object such as a symbol, My mind is constantly refreshing the image and distractions have a harder time appearing and reinforcing themselves.
It is those brief spaces in between breaths that is our oportunity to experience a still mind. The problem with many meditation techniques is they are too cognitive, and never allow for the mind to become still. Also, a key feature of deep meditation is learning to relax deeply. Since most people who develop depth in meditation do so through observing the breath, and we tend to report the practice being very calming, so it really is a useful practice for those who are interested in depth in meditation.
I've begun intensifying a practice I used to do outside of my sits but got too lazy with in the last few months. I've stopped engaging in or satisfying particular tics or bodily reflexes such as scratching my head or stroking my beard. I'm also going back to completely ignoring sensations of itchiness no matter how painful they are to ignore. It's sort of a part of my vipassana routine to remain mindful of what I'm doing. It's helping to keep me grounded mentally.
It sounds like you are making progress. I can only do whatever I can to inspire contemplatives to seek depth in meditation so that they find the superior fruit of attainment (maha-phala).
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It is those brief spaces in between breaths that is our oportunity to experience a still mind. The problem with many meditation techniques is they are too cognitive, and never allow for the mind to become still. Also, a key feature of deep meditation is learning to relax deeply. Since most people who develop depth in meditation do so through observing the breath, and we tend to report the practice being very calming, so it really is a useful practice for those who are interested in depth in meditation.
Yes, that's why though anapanasati is tough for me, I'm cycling it with the visual symbol meditation. I see it as a work out and I wish to discipline my mind, even if I have to briefly sacrifice depth. I think it will be worth it.
I've found a kind of analogue to the spaces. While doing noting on my errands outside; I noticed anytime I found a lul l in sensations/experiences to note caused me further distractions much in the same way the spaces in anapanasati did. I'll need to learn to maintain my tranquility during spaces of inactivity in my life.
Do you have a mindfulness awareness practice which might be helpful Jhanananda? I was recommended to note and I find it useful.
It sounds like you are making progress. I can only do whatever I can to inspire contemplatives to seek depth in meditation so that they find the superior fruit of attainment (maha-phala).
Thank you for your encouragement!
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Do you have a mindfulness awareness practice which might be helpful Jhanananda? I was recommended to note and I find it useful.
What the community here has found is just observing the breath without any noting, just becomes very relaxing, calming, comforting, and compeling. So, just sit with it, and allow it to bloom in its own time, and keep us infromed of your progress.
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So basically taking our sit to our general life? But I'm curious, what should one do if they're performing a task or working or studying? I feel like observing the breath would be difficult.
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Gave observation of the breath a try for most of the day. Not bad. It did help me to still my mind; interestingly enough it carried over into my anapanasati session. Normally my anapanasati sessions are not as deep as my symbolic visual meditations, but this time I got pretty close. The piti was mostly localized around my legs, it felt like a really lovely and pleasant sensation took over my legs and the pleasure was almost numbing and I felt quite tranquil for most of my sit until the last 30 min.
However, I have this nagging worry at the back of my head that I'm not adequately aware or mindful. I was able to keep my breath in mind while doing things vaguely, I couldn't obviously tend to it with full concentration. But I would often lose sight of it if I were doing anything beyond something as simple as walking or staring off into space.
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However, I have this nagging worry at the back of my head that I'm not adequately aware or mindful. I was able to keep my breath in mind while doing things vaguely, I couldn't obviously tend to it with full concentration. But I would often lose sight of it if I were doing anything beyond something as simple as walking or staring off into space.
You may find this web page of interest to study: The Contemplative Practices (Magga) of Ecstatic Buddhism (http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/magga.htm)
So basically taking our sit to our general life? But I'm curious, what should one do if they're performing a task or working or studying? I feel like observing the breath would be difficult.
I have used the metaphor that the mind is like a pocket calculator, we just have to learn to find the off switch and use it, and the practice of medititon is learning to use the off switch. So, when you eed to engage your mind in study or work, then we use our mind for what it is good for, then when we don't need the mind we turn it off by keeping it still.
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However, I have this nagging worry at the back of my head that I'm not adequately aware or mindful. I was able to keep my breath in mind while doing things vaguely, I couldn't obviously tend to it with full concentration. But I would often lose sight of it if I were doing anything beyond something as simple as walking or staring off into space.
You may find this web page of interest to study: The Contemplative Practices (Magga) of Ecstatic Buddhism (http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/magga.htm)
So basically taking our sit to our general life? But I'm curious, what should one do if they're performing a task or working or studying? I feel like observing the breath would be difficult.
I have used the metaphor that the mind is like a pocket calculator, we just have to learn to find the off switch and use it, and the practice of medititon is learning to use the off switch. So, when you eed to engage your mind in study or work, then we use our mind for what it is good for, then when we don't need the mind we turn it off by keeping it still.
Thank you. I've begun reading that page awhile back, it's one of the pages that encouraged me to join this forum and take part in the discussions.
I think I understand what you mean with your analogy. the tranquility it brings over time with the stillness is interesting. So this saturday, I ended up being quite lazy with my awareness and I let my senses and mind take me wherever. I ended up procrastinating and being lazy in general. I found my monkey mind taking over and getting far more irritable than usual. My meditation session at night became worse as well; there's a silver lining though, I managed to gain some insight into how a lot of the hindrances and jhanic factors manifest and interplay. For 2/3rd of my session I felt quite annoyed and even a little sad as some disappointment I had encountered earlier in the day began to percolate from my mind. So I endeavored to keep concentrating on my breath. Closer towards the end of my session my vexation and sadness dissipated and I felt quite calm. I was unable to reach the first jhana this time but I got quite close. Had I begun my session with a more still mind I would have hit jhana a lot sooner most likely. However, now I'm beginning to see how effective, patience and simple determination towards suppression of the hindrances can help. It was interesting to watch the hindrances almost disappear in real time.
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My absorption wasn't so great tonight because I was adjusting myself regularly to apply a more strict posture similar to what I've seen in asana's, as well as fixating my gaze between my eyebrows to induce a state of pratyahara (withdrawal of the senses). It wasn't all for nought though, towards the end of the session something interesting happened; while I could not generate piti I was generally somewhat tranquil in the last 20 minutes and then suddenly the left side of the my head, from the temple down to my cheeks suddenly went numb....I've had these sensations before, usually while in bed before a hard jhana hits me. I moved to adjust my posture and it disappeared so it could not have been a physiological issue, it seemed to have been tied to my meditation maybe?
I'm getting better at anapanasati, i'm not forcing the breath as much (but still am). I still find myself manually controlling my breathing instead of observing it during my awareness exercise most of the time and during the sit.
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Thank you. I've begun reading that page awhile back, it's one of the pages that encouraged me to join this forum and take part in the discussions.
I think I understand what you mean with your analogy. the tranquility it brings over time with the stillness is interesting. So this saturday, I ended up being quite lazy with my awareness and I let my senses and mind take me wherever. I ended up procrastinating and being lazy in general. I found my monkey mind taking over and getting far more irritable than usual. My meditation session at night became worse as well; there's a silver lining though, I managed to gain some insight into how a lot of the hindrances and jhanic factors manifest and interplay. For 2/3rd of my session I felt quite annoyed and even a little sad as some disappointment I had encountered earlier in the day began to percolate from my mind. So I endeavored to keep concentrating on my breath. Closer towards the end of my session my vexation and sadness dissipated and I felt quite calm. I was unable to reach the first jhana this time but I got quite close. Had I begun my session with a more still mind I would have hit jhana a lot sooner most likely. However, now I'm beginning to see how effective, patience and simple determination towards suppression of the hindrances can help. It was interesting to watch the hindrances almost disappear in real time.
This demonstrates the necessary practice of self-awareness. A fruitful contemplative live is about being self-aware, and returning over and over again to stillness through attending to an object of meditation that is calming, and attending to the breath appears to be one of the most successful meditation practices. It is worth pointing out that a fruitful contemplative life is a lifestyle, and it is not something that happens in the short term, but develops like the slow blooming of a flower in the spring.
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My absorption wasn't so great tonight because I was adjusting myself regularly to apply a more strict posture similar to what I've seen in asana's, as well as fixating my gaze between my eyebrows to induce a state of pratyahara (withdrawal of the senses). It wasn't all for nought though, towards the end of the session something interesting happened; while I could not generate piti I was generally somewhat tranquil in the last 20 minutes and then suddenly the left side of the my head, from the temple down to my cheeks suddenly went numb....I've had these sensations before, usually while in bed before a hard jhana hits me. I moved to adjust my posture and it disappeared so it could not have been a physiological issue, it seemed to have been tied to my meditation maybe?
One should keep in mind that relaation is a critical skill to develop, so obsessing over the posture, and strictly pushing oneself into a rigid postre does not succeed in depth. So, just find a posture that you find relaxed, and let go while attending to your breath.
I'm getting better at anapanasati, i'm not forcing the breath as much (but still am). I still find myself manually controlling my breathing instead of observing it during my awareness exercise most of the time and during the sit.
Yes, we just need to relax into observing the breath and not making it be anything, just let the breath and the body be whatever they are going to be.
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Almost at the point where i'm not manually forcing the breath anymore though when I engage in activities it seems to require force to pay attention to.
I am wondering about something in my sessions. Generally my sessions seem to follow a particular route in: monkey brain with active thoughts and concerns invading my mind, then 30 min to an hour later my mind begins to still (not completely mind you but I am more at peace). The still mental state i'm in leaves me far more composed and leads to a cessation of restlessness. Afterwards my mental state goes in one of two directions: 1) it either begins to cultivate piti and I start entering Jhana or 2)Parts of my face begin to numb, usually on one side of my face; it begins on either my temples or cheeks. The numbing sensation is pleasant and can bevery very overwhelming and will sometimes spread a little bit but it doesn't get far across my face before it dissipates again. It's happened to me before while going to bed but in that case it was more intense and spread throughout my entire head. Is 2) jhana as well or is it something else?
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Rodan, most o us experience cycles of mental activity durig a meditation session. We just sit through it, and let the mind cycle however, it wants and enjoy the ride.
The numbing sensation you describe sounds like the charisms (jhana-nimitta) that are associated with the first to 2nd jhana.
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Rodan, most o us experience cycles of mental activity durig a meditation session. We just sit through it, and let the mind cycle however, it wants and enjoy the ride.
The numbing sensation you describe sounds like the charisms (jhana-nimitta) that are associated with the first to 2nd jhana.
For sure, I was just mapping the general course of my sit. I like having this thread to act as a sort of journal for myself.
Interesting, but I don't believe I was experiencing any piti or sukkha. Though I did feel calm and at peace during my sit.
Beginning to notice some things that alarmed me recently outside of my sits. Initially I began to think my home was facing the beginning of a mice infestation; In the my visual periphery and sometimes even directly in my line of sight I will see a flash of a moving tiny object, often black looking but it's tough to get a sense of the colour as it's incredibly fast moving. Initially I had assumed it was a mouse since I saw it near doorways and assumed it ran under and out of my sight. Then recently I saw it again tonight and the movement ceased but there was nowhere for what I believed to have been the mouse to have escaped. This was all under heavy illumination with the lights on so I wasn't seeing things in the dark. The closest thing to these I have seen was a few months ago when I was watching a video and suddenly in the video a black smoke puffed up into existence and then disappeared in a flash. I rewound the video and it didn't appear again. Other visual artifacts I have been seeing weren't always black shapes; last week I saw a pale yellowish orange halo in a hallway very briefly. I investigated the surroundings and could not find any light source or reflected object that could do it.
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Beginning to notice some things that alarmed me recently outside of my sits. Initially I began to think my home was facing the beginning of a mice infestation; In the my visual periphery and sometimes even directly in my line of sight I will see a flash of a moving tiny object, often black looking but it's tough to get a sense of the colour as it's incredibly fast moving. Initially I had assumed it was a mouse since I saw it near doorways and assumed it ran under and out of my sight. Then recently I saw it again tonight and the movement ceased but there was nowhere for what I believed to have been the mouse to have escaped. This was all under heavy illumination with the lights on so I wasn't seeing things in the dark. The closest thing to these I have seen was a few months ago when I was watching a video and suddenly in the video a black smoke puffed up into existence and then disappeared in a flash. I rewound the video and it didn't appear again. Other visual artifacts I have been seeing weren't always black shapes; last week I saw a pale yellowish orange halo in a hallway very briefly. I investigated the surroundings and could not find any light source or reflected object that could do it.
The thing to nderstand about deep meditation is we are becoming aware of the spirit domain, so we might encounter benevoet spirits and harmful spirits. Here the solution is to not pay attention to the shadows, but only the light.
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So interesting thing in my progress lately. I seem to be having trouble reaching Jhana lately HOWEVER, I've been able to acquire the tranquil state during each of my sessions.
So I'm certain of the jhanic factors I have:Vitaka, vicara and ekagatta. Maybe I had weak ekagatta? All that was missing was piti and suhka.
The other thing about my tranquil state is that I felt quite at peace and content in my session. I felt no restlessness or boredom during my sit and was even counting down to when I could begin meditating (I began the meditative session 15 min early out of eagerness).
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So interesting thing in my progress lately. I seem to be having trouble reaching Jhana lately HOWEVER, I've been able to acquire the tranquil state during each of my sessions.
So I'm certain of the jhanic factors I have:Vitaka, vicara and ekagatta. Maybe I had weak ekagatta? All that was missing was piti and suhka.
The other thing about my tranquil state is that I felt quite at peace and content in my session. I felt no restlessness or boredom during my sit and was even counting down to when I could begin meditating (I began the meditative session 15 min early out of eagerness).
One should keep in mind that when the jhana factors arise, one is therefore in jhana. So, when you are experiencing tranquility, peace and contentment, then you are in jhana.
I am also not sure what you mean by "begin meditating"? If you are in jhana, then you are beyond the cognitive mental exercise we call "meditation." One should keep in mind the cognitive mental exercise we call "meditation" is described as the 7th fold of the Noble Eightfold Path, and the 8th fold is described as 8 stages of samadhi (jhana) which are therefore beyond cognitive mental exercises.
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Oh by begin meditating I meant prior to the start of the session.
I'll need to reread your article on the definitions of piti and sukha before I comment again. I did not think that contentment/tranquility fell under piti/sukha. Normally when I feel the onset of piti it comes as a very obvious feeling of warm love or pleasant vibrations. I'm atleast happy and encouraged I can push for tranquility in all my sessions. I'm getting the hang of using the charisms that appear to 'heal' my body in a minor way. During my sits, some physical issue might flare up such as tightness in my arms or soreness or even an uncomfortable need to urinate which isn't too urgent. Instead of interrupting my sit, I will often do my best to let the charism wash over me in a sense and if the charisms haven't appeared yet I'll try to keep my focus on the meditation object until they appear and the pain/discomfort goes away.
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Comfortable sitting
Rodan, it sounds like you are doing well. Perhaps some advice on improving your sitting attire and equipment might help reduce the pain issue. As stated elsewhere I found a daily hatha yoga practice helped me a great deal. It mostly is just a system of stretches that improve sitting comfort.
I also found sitting on a wool blanket or carpet helped to reduce the pain associated with longer meditation sits. Wool helps for a number of reasons. Wool breathes so hot air is not trapped causing heat to build up at the contact surfaces. It also cushions very well, because it compresses.
I also found avoiding cotton clothing helped with comfort, because cotton tends to trap heat and does not compress as well as wool.
I also found silk boxer shorts were especially comfortable for long sits, as silk is less abrasive to the skin than cotton. Rayon is also a comfortable fiber to wear.
Elevating the rear with wool blankets until the knees comfortably touch the floor also helps.
Some people find sitting in 'easy pose' helps, which is crossed legs, but no leg being on top of the other.
Other people find sitting on bent knees, but elevating the rear with a bolster so that the legs are not carrying the weight of the body helps them.
I hope some of this advice helps.
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Thank you Jhanananda, the advice is very helpful. I already do some yoga stretches mainly upward and downward dog, I will begin trying other ones like the hero pose to help the legs.
Regarding my legs, I usually sit in the half-lotus. I wish to move into the lotus position one day though.
My session tonight was quite successful. I managed to enter Jhana after only 20 min into the session. I had trouble deepening it though so I would go back to the meditation symbol once in awhile then back to the charisms. How would one increase the depth of the first jhana. I wanted to first focus on mastering entering and exiting the first jhana before moving on. I tried experimenting a few times by trying to leave jhana by moving around while seated or playing with random thoughts so that distractions would dampen the jhana and then focus on the object again to re-enter jhana. Hard to say if it worked since I felt the charisms throughout most of the session.
I am trying to follow along with this passage below
The perfecting of the first jhana involves two steps: the extension of the sign and the achievement of the five masteries. The extension of the sign means extending the size of the counterpart sign, the object of the jhana. Beginning with a small area, the size of one or two fingers, the meditator gradually learns to broaden the sign until the mental image can be made to cover the world-sphere or even beyond (Vism. 152-53; PP.158-59).
Following this the meditator should try to acquire five kinds of mastery over the jhana: mastery in adverting, in attaining, in resolving, in emerging and in reviewing.[16] Mastery in adverting is the ability to advert to the jhana factors one by one after emerging from the jhana, wherever he wants, whenever he wants, and for as long as he wants. Mastery in attaining is the ability to enter upon jhana quickly, mastery in resolving the ability to remain in the jhana for exactly the pre-determined length of time, mastery in emerging the ability to emerge from jhana quickly without difficulty, and mastery in reviewing the ability to review the jhana and its factors with retrospective knowledge immediately after adverting to them. When the meditator has achieved this fivefold mastery, then he is ready to strive for the second jhana.
In my situation, would my sign be the warmth and vibrations? I felt it primarily in a bit of my arms but mostly along my spine and head. So I'm guessing my next step would be to get the vibrations and feeling of piti to surround my entire body? I'm unsure of how to broaden such a tactile sign to expand beyond my body though.
I found the excerpt from an article on your site here http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/ati_website/lib/bps/wheels/wheel351.html#ch3.3
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Thank you Jhanananda, the advice is very helpful. I already do some yoga stretches mainly upward and downward dog, I will begin trying other ones like the hero pose to help the legs.
Regarding my legs, I usually sit in the half-lotus. I wish to move into the lotus position one day though.
Yes, I found downward dog useful for improving the length and comfort of my long meditation sits. I also found placing the soles of the feet together and stretching the knees down also helped a great deal.
On the full and half lotus,
I have found the posture overly hyped, as comfort is critical, not posture, and those who have a reputtion of promoting posture so far have not demonstrated an understanding of depth in meditation.
My session tonight was quite successful. I managed to enter Jhana after only 20 min into the session. I had trouble deepening it though so I would go back to the meditation symbol once in awhile then back to the charisms. How would one increase the depth of the first jhana. I wanted to first focus on mastering entering and exiting the first jhana before moving on. I tried experimenting a few times by trying to leave jhana by moving around while seated or playing with random thoughts so that distractions would dampen the jhana and then focus on the object again to re-enter jhana. Hard to say if it worked since I felt the charisms throughout most of the session.
In my experience the best way to deepen the depth of the meditation experience is simply to attend to the charisms (signs, jhana-nimitta) as the new meditation object, and to forget about any cognitive effort, while working to still the mind.
I am trying to follow along with this passage below
The perfecting of the first jhana involves two steps: the extension of the sign and the achievement of the five masteries. The extension of the sign means extending the size of the counterpart sign, the object of the jhana. Beginning with a small area, the size of one or two fingers, the meditator gradually learns to broaden the sign until the mental image can be made to cover the world-sphere or even beyond (Vism. 152-53; PP.158-59)
Following this the meditator should try to acquire five kinds of mastery over the jhana: mastery in adverting, in attaining, in resolving, in emerging and in reviewing.[16] Mastery in adverting is the ability to advert to the jhana factors one by one after emerging from the jhana, wherever he wants, whenever he wants, and for as long as he wants. Mastery in attaining is the ability to enter upon jhana quickly, mastery in resolving the ability to remain in the jhana for exactly the pre-determined length of time, mastery in emerging the ability to emerge from jhana quickly without difficulty, and mastery in reviewing the ability to review the jhana and its factors with retrospective knowledge immediately after adverting to them. When the meditator has achieved this fivefold mastery, then he is ready to strive for the second jhana.
First the Visudhimagga is clealry not an authoritive discourse on jhana, but is clearly an example of apporopriation, subvertion and obfuscation, so the only value of it is as evidence of the corruption of the Buddha dhamma. Just avoid any activation of the cognitive, while seeking to still the mind, while attending to the charisms (signs, jhana-nimitta), while relaxing deeply, and stilling the mind.
In my situation, would my sign be the warmth and vibrations? I felt it primarily in a bit of my arms but mostly along my spine and head. So I'm guessing my next step would be to get the vibrations and feeling of piti to surround my entire body? I'm unsure of how to broaden such a tactile sign to expand beyond my body though.
Just submit yourself to the natural process of deepening and opening in the experience of depth, like a flower blooming. The plant does not make the flower bloom out of effort. It just happens. In the same way, the contemplative should just sit everytime in meditation developing a still mind, while submitting to the depth that occurs in the experience of samadhi, which opens naturally likke the blooming of a flower in its own time.
Yes, the feeling of warmth and vibration are charisms (sign, jhana-nimitta), but it is not the job of the mystic to make it do anything, but just to observe it, and submit to it.
I found the excerpt from an article on your site here http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/ati_website/lib/bps/wheels/wheel351.html#ch3.3
The GWV website in the dhamma study section attempts to offer a broad understanding of the dhamma, so some of what we have there is not necessarily correct. So, I would not recommmend paying too much attention to the Wheel articles. I suggest instead you pay attention to the section that is dedicated to our communitie's direct experience of the 8 stages of samadhi. the Fruit of the Contemplative Life (http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/jhanaarticles.htm)
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I was having issues deepening the first jhana through simply attending to the charism's last week but I think I've made a breakthrough in the last couple of days. Last week I had issues when I would use piti as the concentration object. It's very difficult for me to attend to objects that are not visual and I usually the piti fading away when I switch to it. This week was quite interesting however, I had been able to more quickly enter jhana, sometimes in just 5-10 min. Tonight I managed to hold onto the piti for a bit longer as an object of focus without it fading away too quickly. Once it faded I was able to use vicara/vitaka with the breath to bring it back. Another great thing was as I was attending to it, for the first time I was able to increase its intensity. If my normal piti is at a 3-4/10 this time the piti grew to a stable 5-6. I was also able to cycle in and out of piti; perhaps not a complete lack of piti, maybe more accurate to say I was cycling between low levels of piti 2/10 back to a 4-6. My concentration wavered as my excitement in the piti made me lose my composure. The piti was primarily made up of warm vibrations along with a sense of love.
I had a fun experience with a two day fast recently as well. As the fast was about to end I began to experience stronger visual light shows. Sometimes when I closed my eyes I could see circular geometric patterns. These lights were far more persistent than usual. The nimitta I would see from time to time became playful at one point and began to outstretch into something that resembled a disorganized cobweb of light and as I was staring at it, it felt like it was drawing me in. A wonderful experience. I wonder if the fast helped me reach these luminous jhanic states out of my meditation because I had a lowered sense of the hindrances due to my discipline in that state.
I should also say the charism/piti that continues to persist after my sit tonight is not just the warm fuzziness but also a greater sense of energy. I feel like I had several espressos but without the jitteriness of caffeine.
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It sounds like you are doing very well, Rodan. I can only encourage you and others to keep moving forward, and keep practicing.
Regarding your question on fasting. I fasted on water 10 days a year every year for 37 years before I was diagnosed with diabetes, and discovered that my blood sugar goes up when I fast. However, I fasted every year and used those fasts as an intense personal wilderness retreat. I got a lot out of the fasting retreats so that is why I did them for so long. So, I can see why you and other mystics would have fasting retreats, but one should be careful not to cause physical or psychiatric harm to one's self.
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Yes, I've been making sure to watch my health during those fasts, thank you for the concern Jhanananda. The last week has been amazing. The other night I managed to deepen the piti during first jhana considerably for the first time. I felt the piti in my muscles and organs. It was closely beginning to mimic the beginning of the first jhana I felt while in bed that I mentioned awhile back.
Do you ever find that your sessions are not the strongest or deepest when you've had food recently? I ate a particularly large meal that took awhile to digest, I felt quite full even hours after. I always feel 'off' when I don't have a relatively empty belly.
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Yes, I've been making sure to watch my health during those fasts, thank you for the concern Jhanananda. The last week has been amazing. The other night I managed to deepen the piti during first jhana considerably for the first time. I felt the piti in my muscles and organs. It was closely beginning to mimic the beginning of the first jhana I felt while in bed that I mentioned awhile back.
So, this sounds like fasting is helping deepen your contemplative life, which is what we are all about here. In that case I suppose we should emphasize fasting more here.
Do you ever find that your sessions are not the strongest or deepest when you've had food recently? I ate a particularly large meal that took awhile to digest, I felt quite full even hours after. I always feel 'off' when I don't have a relatively empty belly.
Yes, I found the fullness in my belly after a meal definitely reduced the depth of my meditations so I made a daily practice of never eating after sunset and before my morning meditation session. I found this practice gave me greater consistency in depth of meditation. So, we could add this dietary practice as a general recommendation here.
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The past week has been odd. Several days ago I could cycle in and out of first jhana with light piti and sukha but lately it's been tougher with both. I can get a strong sukha (bodily vibrations) but the piti/joy is more subtle and slight than usual. Tonight I was able to draw out a bit of piti then it dissipated to a low level again. To be fair my concentration has suffered for a bit the last few days but it was much better tonight.
I have another issue when I attempt to get deeper into the meditation object, as I start to lose sense of my senses (pardon the pun ha) my right or left foot will begin to convulse with a cramp. It's tough to get further into absorption due to this so far. I also had some tightness in my jaw despite feeling relaxed. Do you have any exercises for it. I did some pranayama and while the rest of my body felt loose and relaxed, the back of my jaw continued to feel tense for whatever reason.
On the positive end, I feel like I've evolved in october. I'm far more equanimous than I used to be even in the face of annoyance. I have a financial matter come up tonight that I'm waiting to have resolved and normally such a thing would leave me stressed and annoyed until it got concluded. Sometimes I think I have undiagnosed OCD as I go over matters over and over again if I'm to wait for its resolution. But tonight, I was able to perform my sit and didn't even consider the issue the entire time. Even now I'm still annoyed but I'm not particularly upset. I'm just waiting and I'm still relaxed.
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It sounds like you are doing very well, Rodan. We just need to keep in mind that life has many variables, so our contemplative life is going to go up and down, and we just need to be OK with the ride. It also helps to keep the mind still and in the present moment throughout the day.
On the jaw stiffness, try the lion's pose.
On the foot cramping, are you making sure that one foot is not resting on the other? Otherwise more yoga with stretch out your legs an possibly resolve this issue. However, are you diabetic, because leg cramps are common for diabetics, if so you might want to watch your carbohydrate intake.
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Hi Jhanananda,
I made sure that the right foot is resting on top of my left knee in the half lotus. I don't believe I have diabetes to be honest, I don't seem to express any of the symptoms and my foot circulation is quite good. Some others have suggested it could be dehydration maybe? I do not drink much pure water, I mostly drink tea or juices. I'm going to see if this fixes the issue, otherwise I may have to try additional yoga asana's. Thank you.
I'm getting better at playing with the jhanic factors more so these days; I'm able to draw out piti more distinctly from sukha. I'm observing sukha as the pleasant bodily vibrations and piti as the emotional joy/happiness. Normally I'm able to draw out a stronger sukha than piti.
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Hi Jhanananda,
I made sure that the right foot is resting on top of my left knee in the half lotus. I don't believe I have diabetes to be honest, I don't seem to express any of the symptoms and my foot circulation is quite good. Some others have suggested it could be dehydration maybe? I do not drink much pure water, I mostly drink tea or juices. I'm going to see if this fixes the issue, otherwise I may have to try additional yoga asana's. Thank you.
I find not putting my feet on top of either of my legs helps me, so I put my feet on the floor in front of my legs. But, whatever works for you.
I'm getting better at playing with the jhanic factors more so these days; I'm able to draw out piti more distinctly from sukha. I'm observing sukha as the pleasant bodily vibrations and piti as the emotional joy/happiness. Normally I'm able to draw out a stronger sukha than piti.
I am not sure if it is important to "draw out piti more distinctly from sukha," because it sounds cognitive. I just enjoy the many aspects of the charisms (piti) as a multi-channel experience of bliss, joy and ecstasy, while keeping my mind still and in the present moment while submitting to the natural expression of bliss, joy and ecstasy.
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Hi Jhanananda,
I made sure that the right foot is resting on top of my left knee in the half lotus. I don't believe I have diabetes to be honest, I don't seem to express any of the symptoms and my foot circulation is quite good. Some others have suggested it could be dehydration maybe? I do not drink much pure water, I mostly drink tea or juices. I'm going to see if this fixes the issue, otherwise I may have to try additional yoga asana's. Thank you.
I find not putting my feet on top of either of my legs helps me, so I put my feet on the floor in front of my legs. But, whatever works for you.
I'm getting better at playing with the jhanic factors more so these days; I'm able to draw out piti more distinctly from sukha. I'm observing sukha as the pleasant bodily vibrations and piti as the emotional joy/happiness. Normally I'm able to draw out a stronger sukha than piti.
I am not sure if it is important to "draw out piti more distinctly from sukha," because it sounds cognitive. I just enjoy the many aspects of the charisms (piti) as a multi-channel experience of bliss, joy and ecstasy, while keeping my mind still and in the present moment while submitting to the natural expression of bliss, joy and ecstasy.
You're right it is far too cognitive and perhaps not even an accurate thing to say really. I think I was just delving in more deeply and the sukha was flowing out more readily like a geyser.
I'm going from learning to enjoy sits to learning to enjoy attending to the object of meditation. I wonder if this is the path towards depth. I believe you've mentioned before that the onset of first jhana comes when one enjoys coming to their session; would it be accurate to say depth in first jhana then comes when enjoying the object itself and attending to it? It seems from the beginning of my experience to now, I'm approaching in, from starting to get used to sitting to getting used to it, to wanting to sit to now enjoying the object itself.
I have a question about the jhanas Jhanananda; but I cannot find why I was inspired to ask. I was reading a thread on this forum but lost the thread after my computer had crashed. I think you had mentioned that the buddha had first attained the arupa-jhanas and then went back to master the first four jhanas. Do you mean he had attained the form jhanas first, then mastered the immaterial jhanas then went back to refine the first four material jhanas again? I was wondering if it's possibly to accidentally skip the first four jhanas if the case is that he had entered the immaterial realms first.
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You're right it is far too cognitive and perhaps not even an accurate thing to say really. I think I was just delving in more deeply and the sukha was flowing out more readily like a geyser.
This is a good description of the experience of the bliss, joy and ecstasy that a contemplative who experiences depth in meditation. It reminds me of the description found in Kayagata-sati Sutta (MN 119) (http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/kayagatasati.htm)
Kayagata-sati Sutta (MN 119) (http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/kayagatasati.htm)
"Furthermore, quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters and remains in the first absorption (jhana): bliss (piti) and joy (sukha) born from withdrawal, accompanied by applied and sustained attention (vitakka and vicára). He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with bliss (piti) and joy (sukha) born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder becomes saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without -- would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with bliss (piti) and joy (sukha) born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body that is not pervaded by bliss (piti) and joy (sukha) born from withdrawal. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, and resolute, any memories and resolutions related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers and settles inwardly, grows unified and centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness of the body."
I'm going from learning to enjoy sits to learning to enjoy attending to the object of meditation. I wonder if this is the path towards depth. I believe you've mentioned before that the onset of first jhana comes when one enjoys coming to their session; would it be accurate to say depth in first jhana then comes when enjoying the object itself and attending to it? It seems from the beginning of my experience to now, I'm approaching in, from starting to get used to sitting to getting used to it, to wanting to sit to now enjoying the object itself.
I find it is more important to find the experience of depth in meditation enjoyable and fulfilling, and also attending to the phenomena of depth in meditation itself as your new meditation object and no longer attending (obsessing) to the object of meditation that got you there.
I have a question about the jhanas Jhanananda; but I cannot find why I was inspired to ask. I was reading a thread on this forum but lost the thread after my computer had crashed. I think you had mentioned that the buddha had first attained the arupa-jhanas and then went back to master the first four jhanas. Do you mean he had attained the form jhanas first, then mastered the immaterial jhanas then went back to refine the first four material jhanas again? I was wondering if it's possibly to accidentally skip the first four jhanas if the case is that he had entered the immaterial realms first.
This question has been debated in Buddhism since its origins. I cannot right now find the specific web page to respond to your inquiry; however, this web page may answer your question: A Proposed Unified Theory of Gnosis (http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/criticism/transitionalabsorption.htm)
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I find it is more important to find the experience of depth in meditation enjoyable and fulfilling, and also attending to the phenomena of depth in meditation itself as your new meditation object and no longer attending (obsessing) to the object of meditation that got you there.
Hi Jhanananda, I have been trying that for a bit the past week; I find that when I switch to the piti/sukha as the object it becomes difficult to latch on to the way I could with my object and since my piti and sukha have been quite weak in the last week, it's even more difficult to grasp. Is this a matter of just keeping at it? It's interesting though, it's been tough getting back my intense piti and sukha i'm used to. Though the general all day tranquility is still there. The body buzz/vibrations have become very fine and almost hard to notice sometimes.
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Most of us here switch our meditation object to the charisms (nimittas) when they arise, and when we feel the depth slipping away, then we return to whatever meditation object that works for us. Also, most of the reports here come from people who found meditation upon the breath worked best for them to acquire depth in meditation.
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Thank you Jhanananda I've been trying that to mixed success, I will endeavour to attach myself to the bliss/charisms. I had a very strong sensation of bliss earlier tonight but instead of a body buzz, it manifested as a point of pleasure within my forehead; this sensation was quite strong however and it felt like something was going to burst out of my head. I laughed a few times because the strength of the sensation was ticklish as well.
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The strong sensation in the forehead is the third eye, which is the 6th chakra. It is a sign that your awareness is rising to higher dimensions.
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The strong sensation in the forehead is the third eye, which is the 6th chakra. It is a sign that your awareness is rising to higher dimensions.
That strong sensation is moving around a bit now. The sensation moved to the bridge of my nose, the stronger my concentration the more intense the sensation, almost uncomfortable. Then when it died off the sensation appeared on the right side of my head. The intensity was the same, it felt as if a vein was about to burst from that part of the skull, I felt that area but it felt fine. It felt oddly pleasant in spite of all that.
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You are very fortunate, Rodan, because the charisms are increasing in you. It reflects your deepening contemplative life, and probably you are now using the charisms as your vehicle of meditation instead of a cognitive meditation object.
As for the intensity becoming perhaps uncomfortable, I found that as I took comfort in the charisms the less discomfort I experienced, but if one reads the major mystics some of them describe the charisms as agony, a sweet agony. In Christian mysticism it is described as the sweet agony of crucifixion and becoming identified with the identity of the Christ.
In Christian mysticism the charisms are seen as the Holy Spirit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Spirit)coming to the mystic. In Jewish mysticism it is seen as the presence of god, which is called the Shekhinah (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shekhinah). In Hinduism the charisms go by a number of names, but Shakti (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakti)is one of them. In the Pali Canon they are referred to as nimitta (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhy%C4%81na_in_Buddhism). In all of these cases the charisms are seen by mystics as the most sacred experience.
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Thank you for the encouragement Jhanananda. The nimitta link leads to the topic of dhyana on wikipedia, just to let you know. Yes, when I say it's uncomfortable, I don't mean painful, but probably similar to joy or pleasure that ends up feeling overwhelming, kind of like being tickled in a sense. These charisms do feel religious and energetic. So i'm of the mind that both the holy spirit and shakti feel appropriate. I'm getting closer to the stilling of the mind. Aside from random stress here and there I'm able to approach a very good level of stillness but this oscillates in quality.
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Rodan, I am glad you found my responses helpful. Yes, I am aware that the link on nimitta I posted sent you to wiki. In contrast here is the link to Jhana-Nimitta (http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/jhananimitta.htm) on the GWV website.
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I have been having some very powerful experiences today. Almost every other moment today has been connected to some form of deja vu. I see or do something and I have this strong sense that I've already done it; I also get vague flashbacks towards dreams i've had that I suddenly remember. These experiences have been very disorienting, initially I felt a little frightened to be taken into a flash back even for a millisecond as some of these dreams were quite weird. So in part, I either feel like i've done something already or it creates a cascade of dream memories I never thought I had that suddenly sprout up. I've had this experience before but it was momentary when I first began meditating, it was never this strong and never lasted all day, it continues even now.
I decided to see if anyone else in the forum experienced this and it seems that a user Jhanon has. http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,830.msg5183.html
I cannot say for sure if I' have an immanent awakening or not as the jhana's the past week have not been consistently strong. But today's experiences felt quite powerful.
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Hello, Rodan, your "deja vu" experiences are typical for someone gaining lucidity in the dream state from developing depth in meditation. This can be very disorienting, so keeping your mind in the present moment is essential. I found these experiences made me feel like I was just a particle falling through space-time. Eventually you will get used to it, but there is a lot more bazar stuff heading your way as you gain depth in meditation, so your lucidity and presence are going to be key to negotiating the bazar landscape of the interior life.
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It calmed down today, but I did have very vivid and strong dreams that night, no lucids but that could have been due to my exhaustion, I wans't paying too much as I was going to bed. But when I woke up towards the end of my sleep cycle, I would enter a dream almost immediately each time. I woke up several times and each time entered a dream immediately. It was interesting. I will endeavour to be more present as I go to bed tonight and fall into dreams throughout the sleep cycle.
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It sounds like you are making very good progress in developing lucidity. Keep it up and you will do fine
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Hi Jhanananda, lately I've been curious about my level of jhana. In the last month or so the intensity of the piti/sukha have diminished greatly to almost nothing most of the time in spite of my increased level of concentration. However, my tranquility been near constant, I always feel at peace and calm. As you mentioned before that is still a form of the first jhana; The issue I have is that moving my attention to the state of tranquility is a lot harder than attending to the vibratory and pleasant bliss of piti and sukha. Is this something I will just get used to over time? Grasping tranquility itself feels like attempting to grab a handful of a cloud of smoke; so it often happens that lately i've been moving back to my original object because I'm unsure of how to grasp tranquility and i'm trying to regenerate the strong piti/sukha I used to have.
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Hello Rodan, for me the charisms are like a multifrequency concert to which I attend to with precision, but I can see how attending to the tranquility of the still mind is an abstract concept and not easy to attend to So, I agree don't lose track of the other charisms while keeping your mind still in the present moment. Also, in my experience the tactile charisms come after the stilling of the mind, so they come in the 3rd stage of samadhi/jhana anyway. And, keep in mind the charisms associated with the 4th jhana presage the 5th stage of samadhi which is OOBE, so you are likely to be either sitting very still or lying down.
Good work, keep it up, keep going deeper, higher, etc.
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Hello Rodan, for me the charisms are like a multifrequency concert to which I attend to with precision, but I can see how attending to the tranquility of the still mind is an abstract concept and not easy to attend to So, I agree don't lose track of the other charisms while keeping your mind still in the present moment. Also, in my experience the tactile charisms come after the stilling of the mind, so they come in the 3rd stage of samadhi/jhana anyway. And, keep in mind the charisms associated with the 4th jhana presage the 5th stage of samadhi which is OOBE, so you are likely to be either sitting very still or lying down.
Good work, keep it up, keep going deeper, higher, etc.
The problem I'm having though is that the charism's are dissipating over time more so. The tactile charisms of the vibrations used to be constant though now they're quite rare and replaced by a total tranquility. I can't say if that means I'm in the 3rd jhana though given that my mind should have quieted down completely by then, same for why I don't believe I'm in the 4th jhana either. I believe if I had been in the 4th jhana I'd also see light orbs on top of having a still mind. I do sit very still though not for too long, usually after a few minutes to 10 min I sometimes move my back slightly to crack my back or adjust myself.
I tried to power through tonight and tried to avoid going to the meditation object for too long. I tried being patient and simply try to cling to whatever tiny amounts of bliss or piti I could find and it worked sort of; a tiny amount of sukha/vibrations were able to be generated. I think I just need patience and determination, perhaps I can induce bliss and piti by thinking about it and imagining it washing over my body.
Thank you for your advice and encouragement as always Jhanananda
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Hello again, Rodan. I am sorry to read your charisms have been in decline for a while, but we have to all realize first that we are not going to get a rocket ship ride to heaven every time we meditate. We just have to show up regularly, which is at least 3 times a day, to meditate skillfully, and if we do we are likely to get the rocket ship ride a few times a year.
However, there are some skills to learn along the way, and I see you in the learning stage.
1) Meditate at least 3 times a day. Best times to meditate are first and las thing of every day, and once midday if you can fit it in some how.
2) If you want the experience of the mystic then you really have to break the 20 minute barrier of continuous sitting to get to at least 1 hour continuous sits of no disturbance. That does not mean that your body doesn't move on its own, you are just not making it move. I find when I meditate skillfully that my body becomes so relaxed it begins to very gently oscillate back and forth or side to side or both. This seems to keep the blood flowing and the itching and aching down to a minimum.
3) The stilling of the mind is the critical skill, without it there is no deeper level to attain, so stilling of the mind needs to be a priority and this often necessitates keeping the mind still and in the present moment all day long.
4) Once the mind is still then the charisms begin to arise, and we just have to not get excited about them, and just let them happen, but at the same time use them as our new focus of attention.
5) Learning to relax deeply is a critical skill which can take decades to develop.
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Thank you Jhanananda for your great advice.
I think I figured out why my charisms may have dissipated. Though my concentration has increased my inner subconscious continued to dwell on matters relating to my life. I discovered this to be the case when I attempted to break loose from everything I'm dealing with from work, finances, family, loved ones and set them aside as if they do not exist. I noticed I was able to get back the charisms maybe not to the full strength I had before but I could feel piti/sukha coursing again in a non-negligible way.
You were right about the movements. I pushed myself to remain completely still for 10 min at a time and it seems to have deepened my experience. I will push for 15 min tomorrow and gradually increase the time so I can relax while doing so.
The effect of this change has been nice, I woke up in the middle of the night the other night and saw a largeish blue circle hover above me and change size slightly. I guess that would be the kasina you mentioned. I don't believe I was in a dream; though maybe I was; I often dream about being in my room. Then when I finally woke up to do my meditation, I had another experience with light based phenomenon. I began to see the white dots/visual nimitta again as I have not seen them for awhile either. This time it was far brighter than it was before and incredibly vivid. Prior to the nimitta appearing I saw a series of numbers appear in my vision, these were not mental images but clearly seen optically while my eyes were closed; I saw the number 9 and then it changed to the number 4 and then I think it became a 0? From that 0 it collapsed into the bright white nimitta. This lasted for what I believe to have been a couple of minutes as I did not check the time.
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Rodan, it sounds like you are making excellent progress. Just keep going.
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Great point by Jhananda about allowing the body to naturally move during meditation. Some meditation teachers/traditions teach to sit still like a rock. But it is not helpful for aiming at jhana. I also find that even though it is important to keep the back generally straight, it is much more important to relax. In a good session when energy starts flowing, the back tends to naturally straighten up.
BTW, I read that one famous Buddhist Ajahn stated that light in meditation is Mara trying to distract meditator from jhana. Not sure if it was literal or more like a joke to prevent people from wanting to cling to visions. What do you think about that?
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Tad, it's good to see how much progress you are making in such a short time. Regarding your question about the Ajan's guidance. It sounds like more misguidance, just as most Buddhist monks will never even mention the term 'jhana' even though the 8th fold of the Noble Eightfold Path is defined in the suttas in terms of jhana. Another way of looking at this question is why is this the only forum on Buddhism that provides factual, experiential content regarding jhana? Or, why is it that I have been a monk for 20 years, but no Buddhist monk will ordain me? Or, why is it that I have been marginalized in the Buddhist community when I appear to be the only Buddhist monk who provides factual, experiential content regarding jhana? This is where the topic of jhana becomes political. We could make this a bigger picture. If you study mystics and mysticism you will find regardless of the religion most mystics were marginalized, if not martyred. Why?
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Jhananda,
thank you! Regarding monks and their teachings, it seems that many of them tend to prioritize their lineage/tradition over anything else. Maybe that is the reason why so many contradictions among their teachings exist. For example, there is another famous Sayadaw who teaches contrary to the famous Ajahn that I previously mentioned. He actually teaches to use light nimitta. I am thinking that in some cases monks might be trying to point to the right thing, but use inaccurate terminology, which misleads people. In some cases they might be trying to teach something that worked for them in certain limited circumstances, but is not necessarily the most effective way for most. Then we also have traditions that completely ignore proper meditation.
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Jhananda,
thank you! Regarding monks and their teachings, it seems that many of them tend to prioritize their lineage/tradition over anything else. Maybe that is the reason why so many contradictions among their teachings exist. For example, there is another famous Sayadaw who teaches contrary to the famous Ajahn that I previously mentioned. He actually teaches to use light nimitta. I am thinking that in some cases monks might be trying to point to the right thing, but use inaccurate terminology, which misleads people. In some cases they might be trying to teach something that worked for them in certain limited circumstances, but is not necessarily the most effective way for most. Then we also have traditions that completely ignore proper meditation.
Hi Tad, yes I've heard of the use of the light nimitta to access jhana which I'm not sure is a helpful method as I dont' really see bright nimitta until I've already entered first jhana and even then they rarely persist for too long. It's a weird description of entering jhanas considering classic texts only mention the jhanic factors as a prerequisite for being jhana. I'm not sure how they support the requirement of a visual nimitta to be a prerequisite for entrance. I think Jhanananda once mentioned they could be talking about the 4th jhana as I imagine that's when stable lights persist
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Thank you, Tad, and Rodan for pointing out the inconsistencies in meditation instruction coming from the priesthood of the various religions. While critiquing world religions we should keep in mind anything in European culture historically resembling a methodology such as the practice of meditation generally resulted in cruel methods of death by enraged Christian mobs stirred up by the entrenched Christian priesthood.
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Hello Rodan,
those monks were talking about higher jhanas as we understand. But an important factor to consider is that those who follow the commentaries rather than the early suttas have a somewhat different understanding of what constitutes jhana. It is of course a distorted version of Buddha's teachings.
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Yes, I agree the commentaries are definitely a distorted view of the suttas. In fact I would go further and say the are a corruption of the suttas regarding jhana, so anyone who refers to the Vissudhimmaga as an authoritative source has been deeply mislead, which explains why most of the few monks who openly speak of jhana has such a radically different take on it. Most notably they dismiss what we call jhana 1-4 as "access concentration." There are a number of problems here. First off there is no reference for something called "access concentration" in the suttas. And, when these people dismiss the 4 jhanas as "merely access concentration" then contemplatives do not realize how important they are to deeper meditation states.
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I'm curious Jhanananda, is it normal to have your vision flickering after meditating? When I say flickering, I don't mean my eyesights going or things are going dark, it's more like the things I see appear to be vibrating. It wasn't my eyelights either. I wonder if my eyes were quivering maybe.
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Had an interesting experience. I was not in any strong 1st jhana, had mild piti and strong tranquility and suddenly. Suddenly it felt like my mind was in a giant empty hallway. The only thought I could observe was my reaction to the experience but it was the quietest my minds ever been. Initially I thought I was feeling such a way because my body had numbed but I could still feel my body.
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Thank you, Rodan, for posting your experience of deep meditation. Your experience supports the finding here that we have to meditate on a regular and consistent basis because occasional we are going to get the rocket ship ride to exceptional depth in meditation. So, congratulations, and keep showing up on a consistent and regular basis for meditation, because you are likely to experience many more such profound experiences in mediation.
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Thank you for the encouragement as ever Jhanananda.
I have been progressing in the technical aspects as of late as well. I can now remain nearly perfectly still for about 40 minutes at a time approximately during my sits and it is leading to better sense withdrawal.
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After plateauing for several months and having inconsistent depth I've been able to reach deeper and more consistent first jhana. I credit this to the improvement i've been having in sense withdrawal.
It used to be that I would require attention on the breath throughout the day to maintain awareness, but now I can switch over to the charisms. I'm also beginning to be able to discern the chakras. I can discern primarily the Muladhara chakra, the anahata chakra and the ajna chakra primarily.
Thank you Jhanananda, for your wisdom and encouragement.
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After plateauing for several months and having inconsistent depth I've been able to reach deeper and more consistent first jhana. I credit this to the improvement i've been having in sense withdrawal.
It used to be that I would require attention on the breath throughout the day to maintain awareness, but now I can switch over to the charisms. I'm also beginning to be able to discern the chakras. I can discern primarily the Muladhara chakra, the anahata chakra and the ajna chakra primarily.
Thank you Jhanananda, for your wisdom and encouragement.
This is a sign of significant progress. Keep seeking depth while maintaining your successes and you are sure to find greater depth in meditation.