Progress as a beginner

[Jhanananda]

It sounds like you are doing very well, Rodan.  We just need to keep in mind that life has many variables, so our contemplative life is going to go up and down, and we just need to be OK with the ride. It also helps to keep the mind still and in the present moment throughout the day.

On the jaw stiffness, try the lion's pose.

On the foot cramping, are you making sure that one foot is not resting on the other?  Otherwise more yoga with stretch out your legs an possibly resolve this issue.  However, are you diabetic, because leg cramps are common for diabetics, if so you might want to watch your carbohydrate intake.

[Rodan]

Hi Jhanananda,

I made sure that the right foot is resting on top of my left knee in the half lotus. I don't believe I have diabetes to be honest, I don't seem to express any of the symptoms and my foot circulation is quite good. Some others have suggested it could be dehydration maybe? I do not drink much pure water, I mostly drink tea or juices. I'm going to see if this fixes the issue, otherwise I may have to try additional yoga asana's. Thank you.

I'm getting better at playing with the jhanic factors more so these days; I'm able to draw out piti more distinctly from sukha. I'm observing sukha as the pleasant bodily vibrations and piti as the emotional joy/happiness. Normally I'm able to draw out a stronger sukha than piti.

[Jhanananda]

Hi Jhanananda,

I made sure that the right foot is resting on top of my left knee in the half lotus. I don't believe I have diabetes to be honest, I don't seem to express any of the symptoms and my foot circulation is quite good. Some others have suggested it could be dehydration maybe? I do not drink much pure water, I mostly drink tea or juices. I'm going to see if this fixes the issue, otherwise I may have to try additional yoga asana's. Thank you.

I find not putting my feet on top of either of my legs helps me, so I put my feet on the floor in front of my legs.  But, whatever works for you.

I'm getting better at playing with the jhanic factors more so these days; I'm able to draw out piti more distinctly from sukha. I'm observing sukha as the pleasant bodily vibrations and piti as the emotional joy/happiness. Normally I'm able to draw out a stronger sukha than piti.

I am not sure if it is important to "draw out piti more distinctly from sukha," because it sounds cognitive.  I just enjoy the many aspects of the charisms (piti) as a multi-channel experience of bliss, joy and ecstasy, while keeping my mind still and in the present moment while submitting to the natural expression of bliss, joy and ecstasy.

[Rodan]

Hi Jhanananda,

I made sure that the right foot is resting on top of my left knee in the half lotus. I don't believe I have diabetes to be honest, I don't seem to express any of the symptoms and my foot circulation is quite good. Some others have suggested it could be dehydration maybe? I do not drink much pure water, I mostly drink tea or juices. I'm going to see if this fixes the issue, otherwise I may have to try additional yoga asana's. Thank you.

I find not putting my feet on top of either of my legs helps me, so I put my feet on the floor in front of my legs.  But, whatever works for you.

I'm getting better at playing with the jhanic factors more so these days; I'm able to draw out piti more distinctly from sukha. I'm observing sukha as the pleasant bodily vibrations and piti as the emotional joy/happiness. Normally I'm able to draw out a stronger sukha than piti.

I am not sure if it is important to "draw out piti more distinctly from sukha," because it sounds cognitive.  I just enjoy the many aspects of the charisms (piti) as a multi-channel experience of bliss, joy and ecstasy, while keeping my mind still and in the present moment while submitting to the natural expression of bliss, joy and ecstasy.

You're right it is far too cognitive and perhaps not even an accurate thing to say really. I think I was just delving in more deeply and the sukha was flowing out more readily like a geyser.

I'm going from learning to enjoy sits to learning to enjoy attending to the object of meditation. I wonder if this is the path towards depth. I believe you've mentioned before that the onset of first jhana comes when one enjoys coming to their session; would it be accurate to say depth in first jhana then comes when enjoying the object itself and attending to it? It seems from the beginning of my experience to now, I'm approaching in, from starting to get used to sitting to getting used to it, to wanting to sit to now enjoying the object itself.

I have a question about the jhanas Jhanananda; but I cannot find why I was inspired to ask. I was reading a thread on this forum but lost the thread after my computer had crashed. I think you had mentioned that the buddha had first attained the arupa-jhanas and then went back to master the first four jhanas. Do you mean he had attained the form jhanas first, then mastered the immaterial jhanas then went back to refine the first four material jhanas again? I was wondering if it's possibly to accidentally skip the first four jhanas if the case is that he had entered the immaterial realms first.

[Jhanananda]

You're right it is far too cognitive and perhaps not even an accurate thing to say really. I think I was just delving in more deeply and the sukha was flowing out more readily like a geyser.

This is a good description of the experience of the bliss, joy and ecstasy that a contemplative who experiences depth in meditation.  It reminds me of the description found in Kayagata-sati Sutta (MN 119)

    Kayagata-sati Sutta (MN 119)
    "Furthermore, quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters and remains in the first absorption (jhana): bliss (piti) and joy (sukha) born from withdrawal, accompanied by applied and sustained attention (vitakka and vicára). He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with bliss (piti) and joy (sukha) born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder becomes saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without -- would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with bliss (piti) and joy (sukha) born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body that is not pervaded by bliss (piti) and joy (sukha) born from withdrawal. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, and resolute, any memories and resolutions related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers and settles inwardly, grows unified and centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness of the body."

I'm going from learning to enjoy sits to learning to enjoy attending to the object of meditation. I wonder if this is the path towards depth. I believe you've mentioned before that the onset of first jhana comes when one enjoys coming to their session; would it be accurate to say depth in first jhana then comes when enjoying the object itself and attending to it? It seems from the beginning of my experience to now, I'm approaching in, from starting to get used to sitting to getting used to it, to wanting to sit to now enjoying the object itself.

I find it is more important to find the experience of depth in meditation enjoyable and fulfilling, and also attending to the phenomena of depth in meditation itself as your new meditation object and no longer attending (obsessing) to the object of meditation that got you there.

I have a question about the jhanas Jhanananda; but I cannot find why I was inspired to ask. I was reading a thread on this forum but lost the thread after my computer had crashed. I think you had mentioned that the buddha had first attained the arupa-jhanas and then went back to master the first four jhanas. Do you mean he had attained the form jhanas first, then mastered the immaterial jhanas then went back to refine the first four material jhanas again? I was wondering if it's possibly to accidentally skip the first four jhanas if the case is that he had entered the immaterial realms first.

This question has been debated in Buddhism since its origins. I cannot right now find the specific web page to respond to your inquiry; however, this web page may answer your question: A Proposed Unified Theory of Gnosis

[Rodan]

I find it is more important to find the experience of depth in meditation enjoyable and fulfilling, and also attending to the phenomena of depth in meditation itself as your new meditation object and no longer attending (obsessing) to the object of meditation that got you there.

Hi Jhanananda, I have been trying that for a bit the past week; I find that when I switch to the piti/sukha as the object it becomes difficult to latch on to the way I could with my object and since my piti and sukha have been quite weak in the last week, it's even more difficult to grasp. Is this a matter of just keeping at it? It's interesting though, it's been tough getting back my intense piti and sukha i'm used to. Though the general all day tranquility is still there. The body buzz/vibrations have become very fine and almost hard to notice sometimes.

[Jhanananda]

Most of us here switch our meditation object to the charisms (nimittas) when they arise, and when we feel the depth slipping away, then we return to whatever meditation object that works for us.  Also, most of the reports here come from people who found meditation upon the breath worked best for them to acquire depth in meditation.

[Rodan]

Thank you Jhanananda I've been trying that to mixed success, I will endeavour to attach myself to the bliss/charisms. I had a very strong sensation of bliss earlier tonight but instead of a body buzz, it manifested as a point of pleasure within my forehead; this sensation was quite strong however and it felt like something was going to burst out of my head. I laughed a few times because the strength of the sensation was ticklish as well.

[Jhanananda]

The strong sensation in the forehead is the third eye, which is the 6th chakra.  It is a sign that your awareness is rising to higher dimensions.

[Rodan]

The strong sensation in the forehead is the third eye, which is the 6th chakra.  It is a sign that your awareness is rising to higher dimensions.

That strong sensation is moving around a bit now. The sensation moved to the bridge of my nose, the stronger my concentration the more intense the sensation, almost uncomfortable. Then when it died off the sensation appeared on the right side of my head. The intensity was the same, it felt as if a vein was about to burst from that part of the skull, I felt that area but it felt fine. It felt oddly pleasant in spite of all that.

[Jhanananda]

You are very fortunate, Rodan, because the charisms are increasing in you.  It reflects your deepening contemplative life, and probably you are now using the charisms as your vehicle of meditation instead of a cognitive meditation object.

As for the intensity becoming perhaps uncomfortable, I found that as I took comfort in the charisms the less discomfort I experienced, but if one reads the major mystics some of them describe the charisms as agony, a sweet agony.  In Christian mysticism it is described as the sweet agony of crucifixion and becoming identified with the identity of the Christ.

In Christian mysticism the charisms are seen as the Holy Spirit coming to the mystic.  In Jewish mysticism it is seen as the presence of god, which is called the Shekhinah. In Hinduism the charisms go by a number of names, but Shakti is one of them. In the Pali Canon they are referred to as nimitta . In all of these cases the charisms are seen by mystics as the most sacred experience.

[Rodan]

Thank you for the encouragement Jhanananda. The nimitta link leads to the topic of dhyana on wikipedia, just to let you know. Yes, when I say it's uncomfortable, I don't mean painful, but probably similar to joy or pleasure that ends up feeling overwhelming, kind of like being tickled in a sense. These charisms do feel religious and energetic. So i'm of the mind that both the holy spirit and shakti feel appropriate. I'm getting closer to the stilling of the mind. Aside from random stress here and there I'm able to approach a very good level of stillness but this oscillates in quality.

[Jhanananda]

Rodan, I am glad you found my responses helpful.  Yes, I am aware that the link on nimitta I posted sent you to wiki.  In contrast here is the link to Jhana-Nimitta on the GWV website.

[Rodan]

I have been having some very powerful experiences today. Almost every other moment today has been connected to some form of deja vu. I see or do something and I have this strong sense that I've already done it; I also get vague flashbacks towards dreams i've had that I suddenly remember. These experiences have been very disorienting, initially I felt a little frightened to be taken into a flash back even for a millisecond as some of these dreams were quite weird. So in part, I either feel like i've done something already or it creates a cascade of dream memories I never thought I had that suddenly sprout up. I've had this experience before but it was momentary when I first began meditating, it was never this strong and never lasted all day, it continues even now.

I decided to see if anyone else in the forum experienced this and it seems that a user Jhanon has. http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,830.msg5183.html

I cannot say for sure if I' have an immanent awakening or not as the jhana's the past week have not been consistently strong. But today's experiences felt quite powerful.

[Jhanananda]

Hello, Rodan, your "deja vu" experiences are typical for someone gaining lucidity in the dream state from developing depth in meditation. This can be very disorienting, so keeping your mind in the present moment is essential. I found these experiences made me feel like I was just a particle falling through space-time.  Eventually you will get used to it, but there is a lot more bazar stuff heading your way as you gain depth in meditation, so your lucidity and presence are going to be key to negotiating the bazar landscape of the interior life.