Fruit of the Contemplative Life
Fruit of the contemplative life: => Spiritual Crisis => : Michel September 10, 2014, 11:09:19 PM
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Depression is an unwholesome state to be in. I'm trying to figure out where it fits in the teachings. I wonder why it is not part of the unwholesome states: the 5 Hindrances/10 Fetters, etc. Why did Buddha not mention it directly? Maybe it is implied somewhere in the Dhamma?
It is related and sometimes accompanies 'Restlessness, Remorse and Anxiety,' but not necessarily.
If you have the fetter of 'Doubt' about the Dhamma, then you may think that there is no way out of your suffering and then you might be depressed, but not necessarily.
The hindrance of 'Sloth and Unconsciousness' is a state opposite to the 3rd factor of enlightenement, 'Energy' (viriya). It maybe implied here. To me 'Sloth' is a depressed state where one lacks energy. Unconsciousness is when you lose yourself in thoughts obsessing over negative or positive thought fantasies which certainly, in the case of compulsive negative thoughts, can cause one to be in a depressive state . Maybe 'sloth and unconsciousness' implies depression.
For me this is the elephant in the room. Why is there no direct mention of depression in the Dhamma?
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Michel, this appears to be a very important insight. I hadn't considered this at all. You revealed many things I was unsure of. I won't say more, as I know I say quite too much as it is.
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For me this is the elephant in the room. Why is there no direct mention of depression in the Dhamma?
Michel, you bring up a very interesting question. Perhaps the Pali Canon has a few translation errors? Or, possibly depression during the period and region of Siddhartha Gautama was considered part of sloth and torpor?
I went through a protracted dark night of the soul, due to a profound lack of skilled guidance from meditation teachers who were all clueless. At that time I underwent 9 years of weekly therapy sessions. Toward the end of that period my therapist proposed a radio station selection dial metaphor for how I could just dial in something better than depression. We also discussed the record metaphor, for how the depression "groove" in my "record" psyche was "stuck" on a depression grove. At this time I also was investigating the Pali Canon, where I found recommendations for cultivating the Heavenly Abodes (Brahma viharas).
So, this is how it worked for me. Through moment-to-moment mindful self-awareness I was able to detect when my mind got stuck back on the depression conditioning. I then recalled a moment of bliss that I experienced in meditation. This recollection brought an end to the depression conditioning, and reasserted the bliss conditioning. it worked very well for me. Perhaps it will work for you.
Please note that I moved this topic to the section on the spiritual crisis, because to me depression is not just an unwholesome state, but very much part of the spiritual crisis.
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Michel, my greatest challenge was depression as well. I want to confirm the efficacy of what Jhananda described, as it was also how I found my way out. Exactly how I found my way out. For reference:
So, this is how it worked for me. Through moment-to-moment mindful self-awareness I was able to detect when my mind got stuck back on the depression conditioning. I then recalled a moment of bliss that I experienced in meditation. This recollection brought an end to the depression conditioning, and reasserted the bliss conditioning. it worked very well for me. Perhaps it will work for you.
For record, my deepest level of depression lasted for 10 years, in which I had suicidal ideation everyday.
I agree that it was sloth and torpor (and ignorance) on my part. As Eckhart mentions, there is a peculiar pleasure that comes from this. However, there was an external mechanic to it, as well. I was (and am) depressed by worldly things. If it's not nature or Nature, then it's depressing and oppressive--at least in my case. So I was depressed my entire life until I began investing in "the spiritual experience."
These days, if I find myself in a worldly situation, like idle chatter, or glorification of material things, I subtly bring Spirit into the situation. I retreat to the charisms and let them flow into the situation. I could (and almost did) write a book on this.
Whoever it is you may be asking this question for, the recollection of bliss could be anything from a "manic" state to actually meditative ecstasy. Just any moment where one wasn't depressed, and then the desire to cultivate that kind of moment again. That desire doesn't need to be mortified for quite some time--and I really don't if or when it does.
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Being gloomy can be a positive trait. In alchemy, melancholy is considered a key part of the transformative stage called "putrefaction." When combined with thoughtfulness, it is a key step in one's going within oneself.
Gloom can also be negative. In Christianity, acedia (sloth/torpor/moodiness) is a deadly sin. In this case it means self-indulgence. It is a hindrance that must be overcome through spiritual attainment.
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I went through a protracted dark night of the soul, due to a profound lack of skilled guidance from meditation teachers who were all clueless. At that time I underwent 9 years of weekly therapy sessions. Toward the end of that period my therapist proposed a radio station selection dial metaphor for how I could just dial in something better than depression. We also discussed the record metaphor, for how the depression "groove" in my "record" psyche was "stuck" on a depression grove. At this time I also was investigating the Pali Canon, where I found recommendations for cultivating the Heavenly Abodes (Brahma viharas).
So, this is how it worked for me. Through moment-to-moment mindful self-awareness I was able to detect when my mind got stuck back on the depression conditioning. I then recalled a moment of bliss that I experienced in meditation. This recollection brought an end to the depression conditioning, and reasserted the bliss conditioning. it worked very well for me. Perhaps it will work for you.
I like the way your therapist put it. Depression is obsessing over the same depressive thoughts over and over, and one should replace those thoughts with more wholesome ones. It really is such a simple mechanism. It's unskillful or improper use of the mind to obsess over depressive thoughts. But if you don't handle your depression skillfully it can kill you. In my view, most depressions are not physical illnesses. Most psychiatrist don't get this. Depression is the supreme motivating factor for discovering if there is a way out of our suffering. Depression is totally healthy. It's telling us that there is something really wrong with our predicament as humans. It's like a pullback mechanism that forces us to retire and seek refuge from the woes of the world because we are disabled by the enormous pain of existence. There we try and find a resolution.
Personally I think that anyone who is not depressed is either delusional or totally insane. We are living in a nightmare. Of course I refer to someone who hasn't found the N8P and followed it to its fruition. When we read the great authors of the Western literature: Kafka, Dostoyevsky, Shakespeare, Hermann Hesse, etc., they beautifully describe the suffering of humanity. When you become acutely aware of this, when you see it in your own experience, when you see your own anxiousness and despair - you begin to look for a way out. Interestingly, I pointed this out to my psychiatrist and my brother at a meeting recently. They laughed at me and thought I was ridiculous. They never read the classics nor have they reflected on their own predicament.
Modern psychology and psychiatry divides anxiety and depression into separate categories. Yes, depression and anxiety commonly occur together. Not everybody who is anxious is depressed, but most depressed people have some symptoms of anxiety. I think the Buddha was referring to "existential" anxiety and depression when he described the 1st N.T. So I would place anxiety and depression together. And one is only free from anxiety and depression when one has attained arahantship. So I think the 9th fetter should be anxiety and depression.
If understand correctly, the dark night of the soul is a different sort of depression. It's not existential in nature, it's the process of becoming a holy one. A purification of the soul, or the gradual death of the ego. I have not found any references to this in the suttas. But we have other mystics referring to it.
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Personally I think that anyone who is not depressed is either delusional or totally insane.
Hahaha! YES! And, when your psychiatrist and family member laughed at you, I laughed myself at them. Because you just imparted tremendous wisdom on them.
I agree with most everything you said, only that I haven't felt depressed in a looooong time. Anxiety, yes. Both are resolved by retreating inwards to the entirety of charismatic phenomena.
Life itself is depressing and anxious, though. I see it everywhere. Almost every physical sensation, like someone walking down the stairs quickly with heavy feet, trash on the street, or humans sleeping in their rooms in darkness until 4 in the afternoon is depressing and anxious, but this is somehow "over there" and "not here." And I'm not an arahant. I'm not disagreeing with you in this regard, but also can't agree, either.
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I agree with most everything you said, only that I haven't felt depressed in a looooong time. Anxiety, yes. Both are resolved by retreating inwards to the entirety of charismatic phenomena.
Life itself is depressing and anxious, though. I see it everywhere. Almost every physical sensation, like someone walking down the stairs quickly with heavy feet, trash on the street, or humans sleeping in their rooms in darkness until 4 in the afternoon is depressing and anxious, but this is somehow "over there" and "not here." And I'm not an arahant. I'm not disagreeing with you in this regard, but also can't agree, either.
Ha. I guess it's different shades of grey. You feel pretty good now. But imagine how you'll feel when you are an arahant. You'll look back and l say 'I was depressed' when you refer to how you feel now. lol
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Personally I think that anyone who is not depressed is either delusional or totally insane.
I agree with most everything you said, only that I haven't felt depressed in a looooong time. Anxiety, yes. Both are resolved by retreating inwards to the entirety of charismatic phenomena.
Life itself is depressing and anxious, though. I see it everywhere. Almost every physical sensation, like someone walking down the stairs quickly with heavy feet, trash on the street, or humans sleeping in their rooms in darkness until 4 in the afternoon is depressing and anxious, but this is somehow "over there" and "not here." And I'm not an arahant. I'm not disagreeing with you in this regard, but also can't agree, either.
Ha. I guess it's different shades of grey. You feel pretty good now. But imagine how you'll feel when you are an arahant. You'll look back and l say 'I was depressed' when you refer to how you feel now. lol
^.^ It is truly amazing how critically refined you are, Michel. I speculate that you could be correct =)
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I agree with most everything you said, only that I haven't felt depressed in a looooong time. Anxiety, yes. Both are resolved by retreating inwards to the entirety of charismatic phenomena.
Life itself is depressing and anxious, though. I see it everywhere. Almost every physical sensation, like someone walking down the stairs quickly with heavy feet, trash on the street, or humans sleeping in their rooms in darkness until 4 in the afternoon is depressing and anxious, but this is somehow "over there" and "not here." And I'm not an arahant. I'm not disagreeing with you in this regard, but also can't agree, either.
Ha. I guess it's different shades of grey. You feel pretty good now. But imagine how you'll feel when you are an arahant. You'll look back and l say 'I was depressed' when you refer to how you feel now. lol
That is a compelling point.
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Personally I think that anyone who is not depressed is either delusional or totally insane.
I agree with most everything you said, only that I haven't felt depressed in a looooong time. Anxiety, yes. Both are resolved by retreating inwards to the entirety of charismatic phenomena.
Life itself is depressing and anxious, though. I see it everywhere. Almost every physical sensation, like someone walking down the stairs quickly with heavy feet, trash on the street, or humans sleeping in their rooms in darkness until 4 in the afternoon is depressing and anxious, but this is somehow "over there" and "not here." And I'm not an arahant. I'm not disagreeing with you in this regard, but also can't agree, either.
Ha. I guess it's different shades of grey. You feel pretty good now. But imagine how you'll feel when you are an arahant. You'll look back and l say 'I was depressed' when you refer to how you feel now. lol
^.^ It is truly amazing how critically refined you are, Michel. I speculate that you could be correct =)
Well that's the first time I've been accused of that. You haven't read many of my posts. LOL
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Personally I think that anyone who is not depressed is either delusional or totally insane.
I agree with most everything you said, only that I haven't felt depressed in a looooong time. Anxiety, yes. Both are resolved by retreating inwards to the entirety of charismatic phenomena.
Life itself is depressing and anxious, though. I see it everywhere. Almost every physical sensation, like someone walking down the stairs quickly with heavy feet, trash on the street, or humans sleeping in their rooms in darkness until 4 in the afternoon is depressing and anxious, but this is somehow "over there" and "not here." And I'm not an arahant. I'm not disagreeing with you in this regard, but also can't agree, either.
Ha. I guess it's different shades of grey. You feel pretty good now. But imagine how you'll feel when you are an arahant. You'll look back and l say 'I was depressed' when you refer to how you feel now. lol
^.^ It is truly amazing how critically refined you are, Michel. I speculate that you could be correct =)
Well that's the first time I've been accused of that. You haven't read many of my posts. LOL
Oh, but sir, I have =) You mean to find the "exact" answer. In doing so, you have taught me, while learning yourself. =) The ability to be so precise in your questioning is what I meant by critically refined. ;D
If you meant "being correct"? You have been correct in the precision of your search, in my opinion.
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Oh, but sir, I have =) You mean to find the "exact" answer. In doing so, you have taught me, while learning yourself. =) The ability to be so precise in your questioning is what I meant by critically refined. ;D
If you meant "being correct"? You have been correct in the precision of your search, in my opinion.
Well that's good, Cal.
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I agree with most everything you said, only that I haven't felt depressed in a looooong time. Anxiety, yes. Both are resolved by retreating inwards to the entirety of charismatic phenomena.
Life itself is depressing and anxious, though. I see it everywhere. Almost every physical sensation, like someone walking down the stairs quickly with heavy feet, trash on the street, or humans sleeping in their rooms in darkness until 4 in the afternoon is depressing and anxious, but this is somehow "over there" and "not here." And I'm not an arahant. I'm not disagreeing with you in this regard, but also can't agree, either.
Ha. I guess it's different shades of grey. You feel pretty good now. But imagine how you'll feel when you are an arahant. You'll look back and l say 'I was depressed' when you refer to how you feel now. lol
That is a compelling point.
Delusion is the 10th and final fetter. It's also called ignorance. There could be a difference between the two, I'm not sure. Delusion is not understanding the nature of one's own suffering, or not understanding the 4 N.T.
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Ignorance and delusion is also not understanding that one's ego is a construct of the mind or is non-self. It's also not understanding the 3 qualities of existence: impermanence, suffering and non-self. What is impermanent and clung to is suffering, and what is suffering is non-self. Theoretically, if one destroys one's ego identity then there is nothing that remains to suffer. At least that's how I understand it.
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The Pali terms for depression are: (nt.) omaddana; adhopatana. (m.) visaada; kheda. (Source: GWV Pali Dictionary)
The next question to my mind would be why are there no references to any of these terms when we look at the Pali terms for the hindrances/fetters?
For 'Restlessness-worry and anxiety,' we have the term uddhacca-kukkucca.
For Sloth-torpor, we have the term thīna-middha.
Could they be synonyms? We need to hire a detective. I don't want to spend too much time on this. My time is precious, I have very little of it left.
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I have received PMs expressing concern that there may be something wrong with my physical health. What I meant by saying that "I have very little time left" in the immediate post above is that I'm getting old fast and that it is important to not waist any time on dead ends. However I am not in any immediate danger. Sorry for the miscommunication. Thank-you for your concern.
The Buddha said that one should seek the end of the path as if one's hair was on fire; there is great urgency. No matter how young you are, consider your time as precious for you could die or fall ill at any moment. The stakes are high. So strive on.
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This was the hopeful interpreted meaning of your post :) You've inspired me to kill the self. I'm so sick of him. LOL
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I like the way your therapist put it. Depression is obsessing over the same depressive thoughts over and over, and one should replace those thoughts with more wholesome ones. It really is such a simple mechanism.
I think if you try being mindfully self-aware enough to know when you are depressed, then turning your attention to a more blissful point of view, that depression will be in the deep past for you.
Depression is totally healthy. It's telling us that there is something really wrong with our predicament as humans. It's like a pullback mechanism that forces us to retire and seek refuge from the woes of the world because we are disabled by the enormous pain of existence. There we try and find a resolution.
I completely agree, and if the world had something more postivie to replace depression with, then the world would have a functional solution verses medication.
Personally I think that anyone who is not depressed is either delusional or totally insane. We are living in a nightmare.
I agree, except that one can turn one's mind to the bliss, joy and ecstasy of the charismatic experience, but most people do not know this.
Of course I refer to someone who hasn't found the N8P and followed it to its fruition. When we read the great authors of the Western literature: Kafka, Dostoyevsky, Shakespeare, Hermann Hesse, etc., they beautifully describe the suffering of humanity. When you become acutely aware of this, when you see it in your own experience, when you see your own anxiousness and despair - you begin to look for a way out. Interestingly, I pointed this out to my psychiatrist and my brother at a meeting recently. They laughed at me and thought I was ridiculous. They never read the classics nor have they reflected on their own predicament.
I have been thinking of your response here for days. This is such a sad reflection upon mainstream thought.
Modern psychology and psychiatry divides anxiety and depression into separate categories. Yes, depression and anxiety commonly occur together. Not everybody who is anxious is depressed, but most depressed people have some symptoms of anxiety. I think the Buddha was referring to "existential" anxiety and depression when he described the 1st N.T. So I would place anxiety and depression together. And one is only free from anxiety and depression when one has attained arahantship. So I think the 9th fetter should be anxiety and depression.
If understand correctly, the dark night of the soul is a different sort of depression. It's not existential in nature, it's the process of becoming a holy one. A purification of the soul, or the gradual death of the ego. I have not found any references to this in the suttas. But we have other mystics referring to it.
I agree with the above.
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Personally I think that anyone who is not depressed is either delusional or totally insane. We are living in a nightmare. Of course I refer to someone who hasn't found the N8P and followed it to its fruition. When we read the great authors of the Western literature: Kafka, Dostoyevsky, Shakespeare, Hermann Hesse, etc., they beautifully describe the suffering of humanity. When you become acutely aware of this, when you see it in your own experience, when you see your own anxiousness and despair - you begin to look for a way out. Interestingly, I pointed this out to my psychiatrist and my brother at a meeting recently. They laughed at me and thought I was ridiculous. They never read the classics nor have they reflected on their own predicament.
Modern psychology and psychiatry divides anxiety and depression into separate categories. Yes, depression and anxiety commonly occur together. Not everybody who is anxious is depressed, but most depressed people have some symptoms of anxiety. I think the Buddha was referring to "existential" anxiety and depression when he described the 1st N.T. So I would place anxiety and depression together. And one is only free from anxiety and depression when one has attained arahantship. So I think the 9th fetter should be anxiety and depression.
If understand correctly, the dark night of the soul is a different sort of depression. It's not existential in nature, it's the process of becoming a holy one. A purification of the soul, or the gradual death of the ego. I have not found any references to this in the suttas. But we have other mystics referring to it.
Excellent.
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Delusion is the 10th and final fetter. It's also called ignorance. There could be a difference between the two, I'm not sure. Delusion is not understanding the nature of one's own suffering, or not understanding the 4 N.T.
There is a subtle distinction between delusion (moha) and ignorance (avijja) in the Pali Canon:
"Ignorance (avijja)
Within the Theravada tradition, moha is classified as one of the three unwholesome roots, which are the root or source of all of the other unwholesome mental factors.
In this tradition, moha is considered to be synonymous with avijja, but the terms are used in different contexts. Bhikkhu Bodhi explains:
Ignorance (avijja) is actually identical in nature with the unwholesome root "delusion" (moha). When the Buddha speaks in a psychological context about mental factors, he generally uses the word "delusion" (moha); when he speaks about the causal basis of samsara, he uses the word "ignorance" (avijja). Thus, the term avijja is used when identifying the first causal link in the twelve links of dependent origination, and moha is used when discussing the mental factors."
Source: Wikipedia
Hopefully Bodhi is correct on this point.
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Personally I think that anyone who is not depressed is either delusional or totally insane. We are living in a nightmare. Of course I refer to someone who hasn't found the N8P and followed it to its fruition. When we read the great authors of the Western literature: Kafka, Dostoyevsky, Shakespeare, Hermann Hesse, etc., they beautifully describe the suffering of humanity. When you become acutely aware of this, when you see it in your own experience, when you see your own anxiousness and despair - you begin to look for a way out. Interestingly, I pointed this out to my psychiatrist and my brother at a meeting recently. They laughed at me and thought I was ridiculous. They never read the classics nor have they reflected on their own predicament.
Modern psychology and psychiatry divides anxiety and depression into separate categories. Yes, depression and anxiety commonly occur together. Not everybody who is anxious is depressed, but most depressed people have some symptoms of anxiety. I think the Buddha was referring to "existential" anxiety and depression when he described the 1st N.T. So I would place anxiety and depression together. And one is only free from anxiety and depression when one has attained arahantship. So I think the 9th fetter should be anxiety and depression.
If understand correctly, the dark night of the soul is a different sort of depression. It's not existential in nature, it's the process of becoming a holy one. A purification of the soul, or the gradual death of the ego. I have not found any references to this in the suttas. But we have other mystics referring to it.
Excellent.
I plan to explore these ideas, which are not fully mature, as I further develop my understanding of the dhamma. And some of your ideas, Alexander, have influenced my understanding. So I thank you.
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I like the way your therapist put it. Depression is obsessing over the same depressive thoughts over and over, and one should replace those thoughts with more wholesome ones. It really is such a simple mechanism.
I think if you try being mindfully self-aware enough to know when you are depressed, then turning your attention to a more blissful point of view, that depression will be in the deep past for you.
Depression is totally healthy. It's telling us that there is something really wrong with our predicament as humans. It's like a pullback mechanism that forces us to retire and seek refuge from the woes of the world because we are disabled by the enormous pain of existence. There we try and find a resolution.
I completely agree, and if the world had something more postivie to replace depression with, then the world would have a functional solution verses medication.
Personally I think that anyone who is not depressed is either delusional or totally insane. We are living in a nightmare.
I agree, except that one can turn one's mind to the bliss, joy and ecstasy of the charismatic experience, but most people do not know this.
Of course I refer to someone who hasn't found the N8P and followed it to its fruition. When we read the great authors of the Western literature: Kafka, Dostoyevsky, Shakespeare, Hermann Hesse, etc., they beautifully describe the suffering of humanity. When you become acutely aware of this, when you see it in your own experience, when you see your own anxiousness and despair - you begin to look for a way out. Interestingly, I pointed this out to my psychiatrist and my brother at a meeting recently. They laughed at me and thought I was ridiculous. They never read the classics nor have they reflected on their own predicament.
I have been thinking of your response here for days. This is such a sad reflection upon mainstream thought.
Modern psychology and psychiatry divides anxiety and depression into separate categories. Yes, depression and anxiety commonly occur together. Not everybody who is anxious is depressed, but most depressed people have some symptoms of anxiety. I think the Buddha was referring to "existential" anxiety and depression when he described the 1st N.T. So I would place anxiety and depression together. And one is only free from anxiety and depression when one has attained arahantship. So I think the 9th fetter should be anxiety and depression.
If understand correctly, the dark night of the soul is a different sort of depression. It's not existential in nature, it's the process of becoming a holy one. A purification of the soul, or the gradual death of the ego. I have not found any references to this in the suttas. But we have other mystics referring to it.
I agree with the above.
Thank-you for your comments, Jhananda. I appreciate it very much.
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Being gloomy can be a positive trait. In alchemy, melancholy is considered a key part of the transformative stage called "putrefaction." When combined with thoughtfulness, it is a key step in one's going within oneself.
Gloom can also be negative. In Christianity, acedia (sloth/torpor/moodiness) is a deadly sin. In this case it means self-indulgence. It is a hindrance that must be overcome through spiritual attainment.
That is so true. There is a component of self-indulgence in one's depression. I remember once a psychiatrist told me during one of my depressions to stop obsessing over the main theme of the depression and I snapped right out of it. I was torturing myself. I needed someone's permission to stop this insane behaviour. What simple and stupid creatures we can be.
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This is also true in my experience, Michel. Although I never had put it into words I thought wise to verbalize. I would always just think "It's a choice." But, calling it self-indulgence like he did--it really drove the nail through. This is by far the most powerful insight I've ever come across regarding mental disorders. Because, at least to an extent, I think the symptoms of ADHD are individuals born with mystical qualities of ecstaticism and self-indulgence. Even PTSD, another one of my collection, appears to be self-indulgence. There's more to it, of course, but it all comes back to self-indulgence. I am slowly driving this into this thick-skulled dog of an identity.
It seems to me that the path is nothing more than not indulging the self, and learning to utilize charismatic phenomena to do so--no?
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It seems to me that the path is nothing more than not indulging the self, and learning to utilize charismatic phenomena to do so--no?
That is definitely part of it, isn't it? Or maybe, as you suggest, it could be what qualifies full enlightenment. I would be interested in hearing what the arahants think.
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We should keep in mind that the skillful utilization of charismatic phenomena allows the healing and deconditioning otherwise vacant. Merely denying self-indulgence isn't enough.
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I remember once a psychiatrist told me during one of my depressions to stop obsessing over the main theme of the depression and I snapped right out of it. I was torturing myself. I needed someone's permission to stop this insane behaviour. What simple and stupid creatures we can be.
Let me add that afterwards I went into a temporary delusional state thinking everything was fine, but the depression reasserted itself shortly after. I did not resolve the depression.
The only way out of depression and anxiety is the N8P. All else is delusional because it leads to nowhere.
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What do you mean capital D? Are you implying the strength if the depression?
And your thesis idea is excellent. If you need case history, you already know I was deeply depressed for 3/4 of life, although I expect that is hard for anyone here to believe.
Oh, and I did enter into a slightly delusional state when I first came out of it. But it slowly became skillful. This reinforces the depression being a natural process of healing. If it's a process, then surely one will be delusional upon finally exiting. Like a man with a weak mind stranded on an island with his best friend Wilson for 10 years. When he finally gets off the island, he's gonna be a little weird.
Afterall, in my first hand personal experience, depression is a byproduct of delusion. That's why they give anti-psychotics to us. So the first stage out of depression would be just delusion. Lol.
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What do you mean capital D? Are you implying the strength if the depression?
I refer to depression resulting from the existential crisis. Not the depression that arises from say if your favorite baseball team lost the finals, etc.
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Lol! Well said, my friend. I'm really enjoying your posts the last week or so, Michel. I always have, but these have a skillful humor in them. It's just nice to see some humor on here lately.
I've wondered often lately if humor is something that goes away in arahantship. The Buddha never seems to have address it, nor am I aware of Jesus doing so. Additionally, as I've gone through these years of slowly de-conditioning, I've experienced a reduction in jokes, but an increase in finding humor in everyday things. It's almost always a product of flamboyant or outrageous egoic behavior. That's why I find your humor funny because you are joking about silly egoic behavior.
Sorry for de-railing. Should i make a thread about it? I suppose it's wasteful of time.
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Lol! Well said, my friend. I'm really enjoying your posts the last week or so, Michel. I always have, but these have a skillful humor in them. It's just nice to see some humor on here lately.
It's coincidental, but I've been reflecting on humor recently. I thought the joke I made on the post about celibacy somewhat frivolous and silly. I may take it down.
I've wondered often lately if humor is something that goes away in arahantship. The Buddha never seems to have address it, nor am I aware of Jesus doing so. Additionally, as I've gone through these years of slowly de-conditioning, I've experienced a reduction in jokes, but an increase in finding humor in everyday things. It's almost always a product of flamboyant or outrageous egoic behavior. That's why I find your humor funny because you are joking about silly egoic behavior.
Sorry for de-railing. Should i make a thread about it? I suppose it's wasteful of time.
I don't really go out of my way to be amusing. Humour just happens spontaneously. I'm basically very serious about the teachings and the practice. I think a lot of the humor that people do is attention seeking and can be downright vain and self-indulgent at times.
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I agree, although I don't agree with taking the humor down. You know when I started Counselling about 2 years ago, I was super professional. And I couldn't attract enough people. But I began to just "let my hair down" and I would let a curse word fall if it wanted to. Many times it was very useful. People told me it helped them relax and feel like I was a human being.
Of course this is flirting with identity. But the way I see it, if you don't feel your conscience objecting when you say it, then it's okay. Sometimes the conscience or intuition will even say to say it! If you feel your identity saying "dude they won't think you're enlightened" then definitely leave it up. But this is something only you can know.
We would be wise to remember that Teresa of Avila was the "patron saint of foul language" as Jhananda puts it (might not be exact words.) Is humor about egoic behavior any different? How often have we seem Eckhart or someone on the retreat videos laughing about egoic behavior in others?
Additionally, consider repressed individuals. They seem perfect on the outside. They repress everything, and so their ego is not apparent. Yogis grow their hair out or shave it all, whichever is opposite to what they are used to, and this is done in effort to elicit egoic behavior. In the same way celibacy can. Do you see what I'm trying to get at? Maybe my logic is flawed.
But I think everyone on here knows you take this seriously, Michel. You've consistently earned my respect, even though you already had it.
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We would be wise to remember that Teresa of Avila was the "patron saint of foul language" as Jhananda puts it (might not be exact words.) Is humor about egoic behavior any different? How often have we seem Eckhart or someone on the retreat videos laughing about egoic behavior in others?
Everyone has their own style. But some are more effective forms of communication. For instance, I don't like Ajhan Brahms use of humor. He uses it excessively throughout his talks and he takes ages to make his point. It's patronizing almost. It appeals to a frivolous audience. Eckhart Tolle's use of humour is alright. It's not excessive and it sometimes serves to make a point. On the flip side, I could listen to the talks and dialogues of a totally serious J. Krishnamurti. I'm saying that I could live without humour.
Additionally, consider repressed individuals. They seem perfect on the outside. They repress everything, and so their ego is not apparent. Yogis grow their hair out or shave it all, whichever is opposite to what they are used to, and this is done in effort to elicit egoic behavior. In the same way celibacy can. Do you see what I'm trying to get at? Maybe my logic is flawed.
I don't mind repression. I lead a totally repressed sexual life. Celibacy goes against nature's design. The Masters teach us how to overcome our desires and cravings. I don't think celibacy is that difficult. The teachings give us all the tools we need to overcome the desires of the flesh. Just do not take delight in sensory stimuli. Do not feed them your attention. Guard the sense doors. Practice the non-perception of objects. Abide in a non-dual state if you can But I think everyone on here knows you take this seriously, Michel. You've consistently earned my respect, even though you already had it.
I hope to keep earning your respect and that of others here.
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You don't mind repression!? That's how we got here. We repressed emotional reactions to stimuli and created a monster (identity.) Now we're practicing jhana and re-experiencing all of it in order for it to evaporate. Maybe repression has a different cultural meaning where you live?
Repression, suppression, depression--it's all things we're trying to overcome with equanimity.
Like when my Mom used to yell at me for eating all the "good food" in the house, it would make me feel trapped, because she was forcing me to take medication that made my appetite non-existent until the end of the night when I was so hungry I ate the highest calorie ("good food") food I could find. Because i repressed that feeling of being trapped, it took me until now to overcome my gluttonous eating habits.
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But you know all of this. What did you mean then, Michel? Help me understand. I had a medical procedure done today, so I'm not so bright.
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I think it is important practice discipline and restraint. That means repressing all sense desires, guarding the sense doors. Otherwise you could lose yourself in pursuing sensory pleasures. It's what the Buddha taught his monks as part of the gradual training. One of the disciplines is celibacy. The whole aim of the holy life is to master and overcome craving. Look at the N8P. The second factor is Right Intention. For those starting out on the training, the object goal is "to reduce craving for the objects to which it binds us." That means guarding the sense doors. If that isn't repression, I don't know what is. Only when we attain total awakening through the jhanas can we say that we have renounced and totally abandoned craving in all its different manifestations. When we have mastered ourselves, then we have total equanimity. Now that's what we find in the suttas. I choose to practice this way.
However, Jhananda teaches it differently. For example, it's OK to indulge in a little bit of the sensory pleasures such as music, to have sex. But all in moderation. So there are different approaches. Choose one that's right for you. If it doesn't work, try a different way.
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Idk if repression at all is good. I still believe the N8P is what you become through daily absorption, the craving fall away on thier own. However, the 4 cornerstones and the 5 aggregates are the guide to change, but they do not suppress, or repress. I've actually found that practicing the aggregates and then following with absorption to be most effective. The N8P is the model of true freedom, not the guide to a guided, wholesome repression, in my opinion.
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On restraint:
SN 35:120. Sāriputta
1On one occasion the Venerable Sāriputta was dwelling at Savatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anathapiṇḍika’s Park. Then a certain bhikkhu approached the Venerable Sāriputta and exchanged greetings with him. When they had concluded their greetings and cordial talk, he sat down to one side and said to the Venerable Sāriputta:
“2Friend Sāriputta, a bhikkhu who was my co-resident has given up the training and returned to the lower life.”
“3So it is, friend, when one does not guard the doors of the sense faculties, is immoderate in eating, and is not devoted to wakefulness. That a bhikkhu who does not guard the doors of the sense faculties, who is immoderate in eating, sn.iv.104 and who is not devoted to wakefulness will maintain all his life the complete and pure holy life—this is impossible. But, friend, that a bhikkhu who guards the doors of the sense faculties, who is moderate in eating, and who is devoted to wakefulness will maintain all his life the complete and pure holy life—this is possible.
“4And how, friend, does one guard the doors of the sense faculties? Here, having seen a form with the eye, a bhikkhu does not grasp its signs and features. Since, if he left the eye faculty unrestrained, evil unwholesome states of covetousness and displeasure might invade him, he practises the way of its restraint, he guards the eye faculty, he undertakes the restraint of the eye faculty. Having heard a sound with the ear ... Having smelt an odour with the nose ... Having savoured a taste with the tongue ... Having felt a tactile object with the body ... Having cognized a mental phenomenon with the mind, a bhikkhu does not grasp its signs and features. Since, if he left the mind faculty unrestrained, evil unwholesome states of covetousness and displeasure might invade him, he practises the way of its restraint, he guards the mind faculty, he undertakes the restraint of the mind faculty. It is in this way, friend, that one guards the doors of the sense faculties.
“5And how, friend, is one moderate in eating? Here, reflecting carefully, a bhikkhu takes food neither for amusement nor for intoxication nor for the sake of physical beauty and attractiveness, but only for the support and maintenance of this body, for ending discomfort, and for assisting the holy life, considering: ‘Thus I shall terminate the old feeling and not arouse a new feeling, and I shall be healthy and blameless and live in comfort.’ It is in this way, friend, that one is moderate in eating.
“6And how, friend, is one devoted to wakefulness? Here, during the day, while walking back and forth and sitting, a bhikkhu purifies his mind of obstructive states. In the first watch of the night, while walking back and forth and sitting, he purifies his mind of obstructive states. sn.iv.105 In the middle watch of the night he lies down on his right side in the lion’s posture with one foot overlapping the other, mindful and clearly comprehending, after noting in his mind the idea of rising. After rising, in the last watch of the night, while walking back and forth and sitting, he purifies his mind of obstructive states. It is in this way, friend, that one is devoted to wakefulness.
“7Therefore, friend, you should train yourself thus: ‘We will guard the doors of the sense faculties; we will be moderate in eating; we will be devoted to wakefulness.’ Thus, friend, should you train yourself.”
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I forgot to add that sensual desire is also one of the unwholesome states. It is one of the 5 hindrances and one of the 10 fetters. It is a hindrance in one's meditation and can be major distraction in one's daily life.
The sixth factor of the N8P is Right Effort (samma-vayama):
Mundane:
1) to prevent unwholesome states from arising (the five hindrances/the ten defilements/the seven deadly sins, and the thoughts, emotions, and intentions derived from them)
2) to abandon unwholesome states that have arisen (the five hindrances/the ten defilements/seven deadly sins)
Supramundane:
1) to arouse wholesome states that have not yet arisen: serenity, equanimity, the brahma-viharas, insight, the four foundations of mindfulness, the noble eightfold path, etc. - especially to arouse the seven factors of enlightenment leading to jhana
2) to maintain and perfect wholesome states already arisen (also implies the cultivation of the 4 jhanas)
If you think repressing sensual desire is unhealthy for you, then test it out in your daily life. See how far you can take it. If you're married to someone, you may have a problem with this one.
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Let's use an example:
If I suddenly experience a craving for ice cream I have three options:
1) Ignore it, but this causes ignorance which is what we are practicing to transcend.
2) Repress or suppress it by pushing it down as soon as possible. Repression is done with force, and is a form of ignorance.
3) Be presently aware that the effects of this indulgence will lead to discomfort, to lack of discipline, to ignorance. Being aware the pleasant abiding of jhana and wakeful absorption are superior--thus retreating to the charisms of spirit where the craving disappears. The mind sees this and is less inclined to crave ice cream in the future.
Enlightenment, like nature, and jhana, and all things pure and holy, flows naturally when we step aside. Nature does not force. It just is, like #3. What do you think now?
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Right Michel, this is correct. I spoke only in the "method" one should use to guard, and therefor overcome, not repress. What I'm learning is there are dark nights over and over, you lose your way. I do not know the circumstance behind the monk above, as I have not yet fully read the discourses. But I can give you an example we both might relate to. It's that others around us, close or far, yet in someway impact full on us, Demand we fit the mold set in front of us. The way they Demand is different, yet is usually involves some sort of labeling. We usually react with acceptance or repression. I personally have chose repression in most cases. Now with that said, repression, or other forms of "pression" are, in my opinion, the key factors to humans loss of spirituality. Ironically, it seems to also be the key to reconnection as well.
I'll tell you the process behind my experience and the correlation to the aggregates. You begin to say things to yourself inside your mind. When you find that you are hungry, you eat. Eat what you desire, yet when it becomes "indulgence", you say out loud, in your mind, "This is indulgence". You do not repress the desire, you just "teach" the mind to define, to be critical, without resistance to the actions. How many times have heard the others say, "Just let go."? Then you meditate. You absorb, and as you absorb, you meet a resistance within the mind. You have taught the mind to recognize its actions, and it contemplates these actions, preventing further absorption. It is hard to keep at, you become restless, I've even found it painfull. Jhana burns them away. Once they have been impacted satisfactorily, you absorb further. I've recently had 6 sits that have not progressed further than the first Jhana, because like the monk above, I made a choice to stop teaching myself, I have reasons. Jhana burns them away. "Rigorous, Self-Aware, Contemplative, and most importantly Saturation of Jhana." You see Jeffery beat us with those words constantly. You let go of everything, just go with it. Then practice and cultivate.
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Let's use an example:
If I suddenly experience a craving for ice cream I have three options:
1) Repress it by pushing it down. Repression is done with force, and is a form of ignorance.
2) Ignore it, but this causes ignorance, another form of repression.
3) Be presently aware that the effects of this indulgence will lead to discomfort, to lack of discipline, to ignorance. Being aware the pleasant abiding of jhana and wakeful absorption are superior.
Enlightenment, like nature, and jhana, and all things pure and holy, flows naturally when we step aside. Nature does not force. It just is, like #3. What do you think now?
Well I guess when you can attain the higher jhanas you can let go of your interest in any of the 6 sensory pleasures. The jhanas are superior to any of the 6 sensory pleasures and therefore you lose interest in those pleasures. But you would know this better than I.
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2) Repress or suppress it by pushing it down as soon as possible. Repression is done with force, and is a form of ignorance.
I disagree. The Buddha taught otherwise for his monks beginning the gradual training as I've explain above.
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I went to far with 3. What I mean is retreating to awareness. In the earlier stages if this development, it's simply being present--the ice cream is a craving.
Later on we can retreat to the charisms. But I don't mean some full blown jhana. It's wakeful life. Lately I simply say "knowing" and let go into the conscience faculties.
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OK.
Just a final comment. It is good to keep your dog on a leash at first. Then when he's disciplined, you can let him go.
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I certainly don't mean to say you are wrong. Words are just references, but we all see them a bit different.
Last night I actually did have a craving for ice cream. But my conscience, which is the faculty responsible for higher knowing, said "You are already nourished from your meal. There is no need for ice cream. It is empty." Of course it doesn't actually say this--it just shows it. And so I didn't get the ice cream. In the future, the conscience faculty will mediate even sooner, and sooner, as long as I trust it and allow it's guidance. Some day I will no longer have craving for ice cream. I used to eat it almost everyday.
It's like a child. If it always gets what it wants, it will come to expect it's way. If it is suppressed or repressed by being pushed away, it will become angry and vengeful. But if it kindly shown the consequences of it's action, it will no longer be inclined.
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OK.
Just a final comment. It is good to keep your dog on a leash at first. Then when he's disciplined, you can let him go.
I see what you are saying. Restraining. In the culture I live in, restraining or preventing force (like of the dog) by simply not allowing it. Repression or suppression would be pushing it into the ground and holding it there.
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OK.
Just a final comment. It is good to keep your dog on a leash at first. Then when he's disciplined, you can let him go.
No, not unless you want to stifle progress. You let the dog go, completely. Become aware of what it does, and define it. Then meditate, jhana will purify.
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I believe why Jhananada says "...will fall away." "Fall" being the key word. You do not remove anything, jhana does.
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Michel, may I be direct with you?
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Of course, Cal. Be direct.
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"This is doubt"
Through contemplation I would come to this conclusion. The doubt is masked by misunderstanding, responsible action, previous conditioning. I love you Michel as I do every other person here, it's not judgement.
I've heard you say that you do feel a tactile sensation in the hands and feet. Come to a conclusion that this is indeed "doubt" then retreat "into" tactile sensation.
Please note I am no saint or role model. I fail and fall repeatedly at many many things, even this. I am just following intuition.
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I love you Michel as I do every other person here, it's not judgement.
There are very few people in the world who have said that about me. Are you sure? Haha.
I've heard you say that you do feel a tactile sensation in the hands and feet. Come to a conclusion that this is indeed "doubt" then retreat "into" tactile sensation.
I don't get what you mean about doubt. I feel tactile tingling sensations in my feet. It progress to pleasurable blissful sensations if I keep my focus there.
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I love you Michel as I do every other person here, it's not judgement.
There are very few people in the world who have said that about me. Are you sure? Haha.
Yup, there is an overwhelming sense of "well being" for all of you here.
I love you Michel as I do every other person here, it's not judgement.
There are very few people in the world who have said that about me. Are you sure? Haha.
I've heard you say that you do feel a tactile sensation in the hands and feet. Come to a conclusion that this is indeed "doubt" then retreat "into" tactile sensation.
I don't get what you mean about doubt. I feel tactile tingling sensations in my feet. It progress to pleasurable blissful sensations if I keep my focus there.
What I mean by "This is doubt"- when you spoke of restraining the dog until it was disciplined, you had "doubt" the doubt led to the conclusion of irresponsible action to let an undisciplined dog do as it will. As explained by the aggregates, the space between a thought and conclusion should be filled with a definition. In this case - "This is doubt".
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It's like a child. If it always gets what it wants, it will come to expect it's way. If it is suppressed or repressed by being pushed away, it will become angry and vengeful. But if it kindly shown the consequences of it's action, it will no longer be inclined.
I do not feel any anger or vengefulness if I keep my sense cravings in check. Rather I feel like I have control and mastery over myself. There are negative consequences if I fail.
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I believe why Jhananada says "...will fall away." "Fall" being the key word. You do not remove anything, jhana does.
Correct. We just show up for the religious experience, saturate our self in it, over and over again, and eventually the cravings just fall away. However, we must also discipline the beast, or it will run off and never get trained.
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Last night I actually did have a craving for ice cream. But my conscience, which is the faculty responsible for higher knowing, said "You are already nourished from your meal. There is no need for ice cream. It is empty." Of course it doesn't actually say this--it just shows it. And so I didn't get the ice cream. In the future, the conscience faculty will mediate even sooner, and sooner, as long as I trust it and allow it's guidance. Some day I will no longer have craving for ice cream. I used to eat it almost everyday.
It's like a child. If it always gets what it wants, it will come to expect it's way. If it is suppressed or repressed by being pushed away, it will become angry and vengeful. But if it kindly shown the consequences of it's action, it will no longer be inclined.
This is really interesting, Jhanon. Ramana Maharshi seems to partially agree with you. Ramana Maharshi has a different view than the Buddha on dealing with desire. Now we have been discussing how to prevent desire from arising, and that is done by guarding the sense doors. But how does one eradicate desire completely. Ramana Maharshi explains:
"Dealing With Desires
Question : What is the best way of dealing with desires, with a view to getting rid of them — satisfying them or suppressing them?
Ramana Maharshi: If a desire can be got rid of by satisfying it, there will be no harm in satisfying such a desire. But desires generally are not eradicated by satisfaction. Trying to root them out that way is like pouring spirits to quench fire. At the same time, the proper remedy is not forcible suppression, since such repression is bound to react sooner or later into forceful surging up with undesirable consequences. The proper way to get rid of a desire is to find out “Who gets the desire? What is its source?” When this is found, the desire is rooted out and it will never again emerge or grow. Small desires such as the desire to eat, drink and sleep and attend to calls of nature, though these may also be classed among desires, you can safely satisfy. They will not implant vasanas in your mind, necessitating further birth. Those activities are just necessary to carry on life and are not likely to develop or leave behind vasanas or tendencies. As a general rule, therefore, there is no harm in satisfying a desire where the satisfaction will not lead to further desires by creating vasanas in the mind."
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Dealing With Desires
Question : What is the best way of dealing with desires, with a view to getting rid of them — satisfying them or suppressing them?
Ramana Maharshi: If a desire can be got rid of by satisfying it, there will be no harm in satisfying such a desire. But desires generally are not eradicated by satisfaction. Trying to root them out that way is like pouring spirits to quench fire. At the same time, the proper remedy is not forcible suppression, since such repression is bound to react sooner or later into forceful surging up with undesirable consequences. The proper way to get rid of a desire is to find out “Who gets the desire? What is its source?” When this is found, the desire is rooted out and it will never again emerge or grow. Small desires such as the desire to eat, drink and sleep and attend to calls of nature, though these may also be classed among desires, you can safely satisfy. They will not implant vasanas in your mind, necessitating further birth. Those activities are just necessary to carry on life and are not likely to develop or leave behind vasanas or tendencies. As a general rule, therefore, there is no harm in satisfying a desire where the satisfaction will not lead to further desires by creating vasanas in the mind."
Thank-you, Michel, for the useful quote. This seems reasonable, except Ramana Maharshi did not apparently understand the significance of saturation in the charisms, which both effaces the identity, and addictions/sins/samskars/hindrances/fetters. Not surprisingly he was not know for a complete manifestation of the superior fruit (maha-phala).
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In my experience, traditional yoga asana's perfectly demonstrate how to handle aversion and craving.
You put the body in a pose that is difficult for it. It begins to produce all sorts of distraction and additional pain in effort to get out of the difficulty. But we just "breathe" into the "pain point" IN the body, and suddenly everything loosens up and we flow naturally deeper into the pose.
"Breath" in this sense is the same way that it was meant by the Buddha in Anapanasati sutta. Meaning "spirit" or "spirit body." Specifically in this case of a yoga pose, we mean the inner tactile charism, the "inner body." And Yoga as an entire discipline for enlightenment is about employing this practice in daily life difficulty, no? Which is just utilizing the "breath", the charisms, to train the dog.
A yoga asana routine every morning serves to remind us of this. Instead of the difficulty we sometimes have in seeing craving and aversion, we create the situation and "handle" it many times, first thing in the morning. We show the dog what it's supposed to do. Then we continue employing it into samyama/jhana meditation. We then have a momentum to take us through the rest of the day.
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It seems reasonable.