Author Topic: Nan Huai-Chin  (Read 12823 times)

bodhimind

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Nan Huai-Chin
« on: June 11, 2015, 08:38:49 AM »
Nan Huai Chin is said to be enlightened, as he shows fruits of attainment and I thought I would try to fill this section in with his commentaries which is more of a "Taoist-Mahayana-Zen" approach and see how it fits within the GWV context. There are a few reasons why I think his explanations are similar to the GWV context.

Contrary to most Zen/Mahayana teachings, he does not reject the charisms. In fact, he explains them and says that they are precursors to physical cultivation. I have never read about him denouncing them as demonic or part of Makyo's cave. He comes from the chinese Ch'an branch, maybe that is the reason. However, although he is of Mahayana, he does not denounce the Theravadan teachings and he always emphasizes the suttas of the Pali Canon as fundamental practice. Since he embraces the phenomena of meditation, does not demonize meditation, nor reject the Pali Canon, I think it is worth listening to what he has to say.

Quote from: Summarized from Nan
He says that when a person goes into deep sleep, the breathing can stop completely for a brief moment (state of "Xi"). He explains that when this happens, the body will be filled with Qi. In normal breathing, the lung is used to breathe and hence is not the movement of Qi. In samadhi, breathing takes place in the navel area by itself instead of the lung. When the mind dwells on one thought and breathing pauses, mind and Qi are in unity. The more thoughts there are in the mind, the shorter the breaths and the more difficult to do navel breathing. He claims "Xi" to be a state of neither-inhalation-nor-exhalation. When mind goes together with the Xi, Xi will be felt over the body.

From I get here, he might be meaning "Xi" as the bliss of the body?

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The first thing you do when you sit down for meditation, is to let your mind relax, letting go of all thoughts, the past, present and future. Breathing is natural without effort. In the beginning, breath becomes long and deep to the navel Dan-Tian when you are calmed down.

The average person's body is infected by all kinds of illnesses arising from daily activities such as eating, drinking and sex. Your body therefore becomes an impediment. Chest congestion is caused by heart/lung problems, discomfort in the waist might be kidney problems, etc. The average person feels the existence of the body during meditation, due to discomforts of the body.

Emptying the mind, the Qi stabilizes. You reach no-breathing (breathing once in a long while). This is followed by light that glows from within, in the head area, back or even the bottom. Sweet saliva flows in abundance. The body disappears from consciousness.

He seems to be talking about the visual charism (lights), the gustatory charism (sweetness) and the movement from third to fourth jhana, when the physical body's senses become separate (neither-pleasure-nor-pain).

Then he talks about the Taoist way of interpreting this here:

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The most difficult area to unblock is waist-down, to the toes. The two feet are especially difficult. Once unblocked, a sensation of comfort will come to the feet, followed by a joyous sensation. Sensation will gradually move from feet to brain, at which one experiences a huge ecstasy. In this case, the body is no longer an impediment.

This definitely sounds a little like my own experience, where the ecstasy suddenly floods my experience.

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Nirmanakaya are projection or transformative bodies, such as astral and mental bodies that are projected after sufficient chi has been cultivated.
He is also one of the few mystics who talk about the out-of-body projection stage. As quoted above, he relates the Mahayana concept of "Nirmanakaya" to being the bodies that traverse the immaterial realms.

However, he does say that cultivating the ability to astral project without doing actual cultivation work can lead to rebirth as an asura or wandering ghost. I think this is in line with what Jhanananda talks about as being saturated in the four jhanas and living a contemplative lifestyle, which naturally allows for the OBE. It is from this that I realize that 'astral travel' alone is an outside path and not of the Dharma.

Yet even more, he is one of the few mystics who talk about how there is no Buddhism/Zen/Taoism/Christianity/etc - They are all just one cosmic truth and different ways of seeing the same thing. He goes as far to talk about the parallels:

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Dharmakaya = Father = "Shen" (Spirit)
Sambhogakaya = Son = "Chi" (Life force)
Nirmanakaya = Holy Ghost = "Jing" (Generative force)

He talks about prayer in Christianity, Islam and Judaism having the same basis of cultivating samadhi. He talks about Saint Augustine, St John of the Cross, Saint Teresa,Saint Ignatius, Teresa of Avila, Desert Fathers and various other people too.

He also talks about the vibrations of the body during meditation... or kriya:

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Subconscious nervous tension trembles the nerves and muscles, entering the conscious mind where they are amplified. Hence, a person can even start to shake and move their limbs about in a regular pattern, assuming yoga positions or even dance-like movements. The movement is resulting as a form of release to dissipate nervous tension.

Another point that agrees with the GWV is that he says that the scientists have no idea what they are researching about because they have no cultivation experience. Even when telling them to do so, they said "nonsense" as academics without experience always do. Scientists rarely study the advanced cultivators and merely do tests on the biological attainments of "leisure-meditators".


---

I do have his other book that describes the various phenomena (Tao & Longevity) that happens to the body, as well as some spiritual crises. When I get time, I will try to post summaries up if anybody thinks that his content is relevant to the GWV.

Jhanananda

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Re: Nan Huai-Chin
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2015, 03:50:39 PM »
Another point that agrees with the GWV is that he says that the scientists have no idea what they are researching about because they have no cultivation experience. Even when telling them to do so, they said "nonsense" as academics without experience always do. Scientists rarely study the advanced cultivators and merely do tests on the biological attainments of "leisure-meditators".
I find much to agree with in what Nan Huai Chin has to say, especially the above.  Thank-you, bodhimind, for bringing our attention to someone who might be a genuine mystic.  Good critical analysis.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2015, 04:01:23 PM by Jhanananda »
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bodhimind

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Re: Nan Huai-Chin
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2015, 03:50:03 PM »
Thank you for verifying that his work is genuine.

I shall try to summarize his work, Tao and Longevity, in the space below, along with an analysis to whether it is compatible with the GWV.

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Meditation, especially if one has some latent illness, will cause tingling, chills, fever or sensations of heat, congestion, swelling, numbness, itching, etc. The feelings are much stronger when one is in a state of quiet than when one is not. Like the tree that wants to be still when the wind won't stop, one's mind becomes more active when it wants to be quiet.

Firstly, when a person starts to meditate, as a result of the relatively quiet state that arises, he realizes the incessant and chaotic nature of his thoughts as the first effect of meditation. When a glass of water is turbid, no dust is observed in it. But if a clarifying agent is added, the dust can be observed to precipitate to the bottom. The dust was there all the time, and it is only in this quiet state that the presence of dust is discovered.

Secondly, an average person gets sleepy in a quiet condition. If fatigued physically, one should sleep. However, if not one should get up to do a bit of exercise.
I believe this falls in the principle of torpor as an unwholesome state, which is congruent with Buddhist teachings.

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In ancient Taoist sutras, the word "ch'i" originally means "no fire". This fire refers to afflictions, sexual desires, lust-filled affections, restling/bustling thoughts and a reckless mind. In absence of this, one will be filled with vitality.

Fire moving restlessly is "secondary fire", while fire in appropriate condition is "ruling fire". "Ruling fire" hence causes kundalini to be induced. Kundalini is the warmth phenomenon, the first stage of catus-kusala-mula.
From what he explains in other texts, proper ch'i movement contributes to a blissfulness of the body, similar to the jhana experience. In this case, he says that when the ch'i reaches appropriate condition, kundalini will hence be induced. GWV says that kundalini (or viriya) arises in deep meditation, so this point is consistent.

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Chi flows through a different chi channel every 2 hours (total of 12). There is the Tu Mai (spinal cord), Jen Mai (autonomic nervous system), Tai Mai (kidney nervous system), Yang/Yin Wei (cerebrum, cerebellum, diencephalon), Yang/Yin Chiao (genital nervous system, including prostate and hand/feet nerve functions). Chong mai is non-fixed and starts between reproductive organs through the stomach, heart and to the center of the head.

In yoga, there are 3 chi routes (left, middle, right) and 7 chakras (major nerve plexuses in body). In Taoism, there is front, middle and back routes. There are 3 storages for chi, known as upper/middle/lower Tan Tien.
Please note that the words in brackets mean correspondences, not synonyms.

I am not sure if GWV agrees with this esoteric point of view, with the existence of a central channel. I do remember Jhanananda saying that he does not agree with the "microcosmic orbit" of Taoism as there is no circulation sensation going on.

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In meditation, blood circulation decreases, endocrine secretion evenly distributes and creates the feeling of being "full" of chi. One can feel tightness in the central nervous system.

When chi starts to move, people erroneously ”concentrate", causing nerves to tighten and hence fall into a state of mental/physical sickness. Meditation does not make a man crazy, but misunderstanding brought about by ignorance of basic principles of meditation can cause abnormal mental states.

I think this brings up the GWV point where meditation does not “cause” mental problems, but reveals them as a spiritual crisis.

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Those who employ Buddhist meditation methods generally suppose mental cultivation is sufficient. As a consequence, physical transformations and bodily changes are erroneously ignored.

I think this point itself negates what a lot of meditation teachers say about meditation is just "keeping mental calm", which is not. This point highlights that meditation is a rehabilitation that can involve the body itself.

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Without an unwholesome mindstate, one attains mental quietude and kundalini/shakti/real chi/spirit force/spirit heat is generated.

The chi reaction inside the body is not merely connected with breath. There are 3 forms: (1) Wind (normal respiratory system), (2) Chi (Light, easy and slow breath) and (3) Xi (Breath is so slight it almost stops, with energy within the lower abdomen).

Meditation does not cause any of these effects, but merely reveals latent illnesses. However, one cannot avoid the effects of this relationship. One must depend on the body in order to break the shell of its bondage. Everyone will not experience all the phenomena described as it depends on the person's sex, age, and individual mental/physiological state.

First reaction at starting meditation is numbness or swelling of legs.

Second reaction will be at the swollen filling sensation in the back/kidneys/genitals.One should refrain from sexual desires to remedy this. A proverb says: "One starts to think about sex when one is warm and full of food."

Third reaction will be heaviness/aching in the back/shoulder regions. One has to release the mind and forget the body. If equanimous, suddenly, the mind and body will be at ease/loose from the tension and there will be brightness of mind and spirit. The back suddenly straightens and he will be so charged that he cannot fall asleep easily. In this case, let nature take its course.

Fourth reaction will be the possibility of heavy lethargy forcing one to doze. Dreamlike state surfaces. Images and feelings match subconscious functions, giving rise to mental states, thoughts and concepts (States of Mara). Going through this depends on one's wisdom, thought, personality, psychological propensities and physiological condition. After the fourth, one will feel more awake. Points of lights can appear in front of your eyes, in different shapes and colors.

Fifth reaction will be joyfulness. There might be wonderful inner sounds or even ringing noises. This is caused by trembling chi generating brainwave activities. However, one may hear voices - this is a mixture of what has been seen, heard, thoughts and known before. This requires a strong mind. Guiding the chi down, the stage is passed.

Sixth reaction is a swelling in both temples and another desire to doze. Open/closed eyes will see lights like the sun/moon/fluorescence. There might be observations of people/events happening inside this light (premonitive vision). This is due to fluctuations of chi in the brain that induces thoughts or images. However, if the chi is not adjusted suitably, there might be nasal dripping. If one passes this stage, there might be presence of fragrances.

Seventh reaction will be chi at the nose. Some people will have pain/heavy sensations at the crown, as if pressed upon. Diverting attention and letting it be natural, a comfortable and refreshing feeling will move downward from the top of the head (Ching An). Thoughts and illusions weakened, one naturally straightens posture and experiences the first step of "samadhi". Sweet, cool saliva can descend. There might be very little hunger. There can be sounds like "pi pi" in the head.

I find that I experienced the third reaction, where I would have a bolting of the body and then have a moment where I cannot fall asleep easily.

I also find that he seems to have described the spiritual crisis in the fourth reaction.

The fifth reaction is obviously talking about the charisms. Ringing noises point to the auditory charism.

The sixth reaction is something I've experienced too, where there are lights or fluorescences. Probably the visual charism in this case.

The seventh reaction is obviously a deep state of meditation. I remember that Jhanananda described an energetic movement from crown-down, so I believe that this particular point corresponds to it?

He elaborates that the above 7 reactions are signs of the opening of the "back channel", and that there are also other signs for the "front channel", which he says is much more difficult to open. He continues below:

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First reaction is chi vibrating in intestines/stomach. There may be hiccoughs, yawning, farting and serious diarrhea. It can feel as if something is blocked in the chest and he wishes to vomit out but cannot. It might be possible to vomit out a dense, dark-grey phlegm. This can lead to opening of the throat chakra. Sexual intercourse should be avoided at this stage, especially for cultivators who want a faster result. After this stage, one will enter the next stage.

Second reaction is that the chest feels opened and broadened. Sometimes, there are crackling noises around the heart or curling up of the tongue and feeling of sinking down. External breathing stops. The tongue curls back to the uvula. There might be sounds of birds. There will be golden light appearing in front of the eyes. There is slight breathing in the abdomen.

Third reaction is the external and inner breath stopping completely. Genitals might retract tightly.

I cannot relate completely to the second or third reactions... but I have felt the chest congestion, which is said to be the heart chakra being closed.

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When front and back channels are completely open, chi goes to the legs and feet and causes a "non-sexual orgasm". After a while, chi ascends to front of head, then descends to fill the entire body. A person feels as if his body does not exist.

One feels while walking as if he is walking in the sky, or perhaps that he is treading on a sponge.

Apparently the above is the sign that the Tu and Jen (front and back) channels are open, in Taoist terms. He says that when these channels open, the channels referred to by yoga as the left and right channels naturally open up as well. He says that at this stage one begins to cultivate wisdom and moves beyond the practice of meditation technique, which deals with the opening of the central channel.

I do not think that I have experienced the above, so I cannot comment. I am not sure of the GWV's perspective on this, perhaps it can be verified?

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After opening both channels, the body feels light, clear, warm and soft. One will introspect and recognize the illumination of the origin of nature and life. One can separate from and unite with the "later heaven body". This allows for the solid foundation for Tao cultivation, as one has claimed the initial fruit.

I think "later heaven body" refers to the out-of-body experience as a result of deep meditation. As GWV says, this is a fruit of attainment, which is consistent.

Quote
"The stars of the universe stop wheeling, the sun and moon are united."

Very few can achieve genuine rotation of the river chariot and circulate chi among the eight extra meridians. Even fewer understand the stage of separation and unification of body, mind and the origin of Nature. Therefore, even if one sincerely wants to teach this, a student with the ability to receive this supreme instruction is rare. After this stage, a person goes beyond earthly things and enters into the metaphysical realm. Even if a teacher wished to describe this in detail, a student with the wisdom and experience to receive these instructions beyond the realm of the human world would be exceptional.

This is exactly where I see the huge similarity between GWV and Nan Huai Chin. Jhanananda talked about his separation of body, as well as the experience of the immaterial realm, which seems to be exactly what Huai Chin is talking about here. I did not understand this passage when I first read it, until I've read GWV's take on it, and everything clicked.

There are a few more pages, but when I get more time I will post it up. I would love to know the GWV's take on the information.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 06:37:53 AM by bodhimind »

Sam Lim

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Re: Nan Huai-Chin
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2015, 05:59:54 AM »


Quote from: Summarized from Nan
He says that when a person goes into deep sleep, the breathing can stop completely for a brief moment (state of "Xi"). He explains that when this happens, the body will be filled with Qi. In normal breathing, the lung is used to breathe and hence is not the movement of Qi. In samadhi, breathing takes place in the navel area by itself instead of the lung. When the mind dwells on one thought and breathing pauses, mind and Qi are in unity. The more thoughts there are in the mind, the shorter the breaths and the more difficult to do navel breathing. He claims "Xi" to be a state of neither-inhalation-nor-exhalation. When mind goes together with the Xi, Xi will be felt over the body.

From I get here, he might be meaning "Xi" as the bliss of the body?



Xi = Rest in Mandarin. It is the awareness between the in/out breath.

The above is my method of teaching meditation. I will always teach them qi-gong first and followed by anapanasati meditation as seen below in this video by Nan Huai Chin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIqlZ6nn268
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 06:02:10 AM by gandarloda »

Jhanananda

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Re: Nan Huai-Chin
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2015, 01:55:22 PM »

One must keep in mind that when translating any abstract concept from one language to the next, while there might be intersecting concepts; nonetheless, we cannot assume all of the uses of one term in a culture are going to meet all of the uses of a term that is being used to translate it into another language.  Thus, while I agree with some of what Nan Huai Chin says, I do not agree with all of it.  For instance, while the Chinese term 'chi' is best translated into Sanskrit and Pali as 'virya,' which is best translated into English as 'virtue'; nonetheless, one must realize that the use of chi in acupuncture has no correlation to how virya is used in Sanskrit and Pali or how 'virtue' is used in English.

The Sanskrit term 'kundalini' is another term that has intersecting meanings with 'virya,' and 'virtue', as well as 'chi;' however,  the experience of an explosive rush of energy that is described by the term 'kundalini' does not feet any use of the term 'chi' that I am aware of, nor how Nan Huai Chin uses it above.  In fact it looks to me like he is misinterpreting some charisms as problems with 'chi,' which they are not.

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"The stars of the universe stop wheeling, the sun and moon are united."

Very few can achieve genuine rotation of the river chariot and circulate chi among the eight extra meridians. Even fewer understand the stage of separation and unification of body, mind and the origin of Nature. Therefore, even if one sincerely wants to teach this, a student with the ability to receive this supreme instruction is rare. After this stage, a person goes beyond earthly things and enters into the metaphysical realm. Even if a teacher wished to describe this in detail, a student with the wisdom and experience to receive these instructions beyond the realm of the human world would be exceptional.

This is exactly where I see the huge similarity between GWV and Nan Huai Chin. Jhanananda talked about his separation of body, as well as the experience of the immaterial realm, which seems to be exactly what Huai Chin is talking about here. I did not understand this passage when I first read it, until I've read GWV's take on it, and everything clicked.

There are a few more pages, but when I get more time I will post it up. I would love to know the GWV's take on the information.
I would agree with Nan Huai Chin here.  This forum represents the tiny community of people world-wide who can understand these metaphysical phenomena through direct experience.
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bodhimind

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Re: Nan Huai-Chin
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2015, 07:52:47 AM »
One must keep in mind that when translating any abstract concept from one language to the next, while there might be intersecting concepts; nonetheless, we cannot assume all of the uses of one term in a culture are going to meet all of the uses of a term that is being used to translate it into another language.  Thus, while I agree with some of what Nan Huai Chin says, I do not agree with all of it.  For instance, while the Chinese term 'chi' is best translated into Sanskrit and Pali as 'virya,' which is best translated into English as 'virtue'; nonetheless, one must realize that the use of chi in acupuncture has no correlation to how virya is used in Sanskrit and Pali or how 'virtue' is used in English.

The Sanskrit term 'kundalini' is another term that has intersecting meanings with 'virya,' and 'virtue', as well as 'chi;' however,  the experience of an explosive rush of energy that is described by the term 'kundalini' does not feet any use of the term 'chi' that I am aware of, nor how Nan Huai Chin uses it above.  In fact it looks to me like he is misinterpreting some charisms as problems with 'chi,' which they are not.

Yes. I think it might be important to say that I might have left it out in the summary above, but he repeatedly does say that the usage of "chi" overlaps kundalini or prana, but its meaning is much closer to "energy" biologically and they do not mean exactly the same thing. I do not know what he means by that, but he also talks about the limitation of language.

I read the rest of the book and i found the following paragraph quite striking:

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Merging with the cosmos is a necessary precondition for recognizing one's own spirit or divine self. This is what enables a person to advance. It enables one to condense shen and assemble chi, to project or refrain from projecting; to discern the size of the projected body, and to leave and return to the physical body at will. It enables one to work on the cultivation of shen and to achieve the Tao by means of meditation. Without perfect wisdom, virtue, harmony and blessedness, there is no going beyond this."

It might also be worth noting that he frequently expresses his thoughts through mandarin poems as well. He is also a polymath, having mastery in many areas.

Jhanananda

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Re: Nan Huai-Chin
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2015, 12:18:23 PM »
Quote from: Nan Huai Chin
Merging with the cosmos is a necessary precondition for recognizing one's own spirit or divine self. This is what enables a person to advance. It enables one to condense shen and assemble chi, to project or refrain from projecting; to discern the size of the projected body, and to leave and return to the physical body at will. It enables one to work on the cultivation of shen and to achieve the Tao by means of meditation. Without perfect wisdom, virtue, harmony and blessedness, there is no going beyond this."
I happen to agree with much of this.
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bodhimind

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Re: Nan Huai-Chin
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2017, 01:42:01 PM »
It is regretful that Sam is no longer here to give more insight from the perspective of his qigong practice.

Upon more studying of Nan's texts (including Chinese), I realized that he was also unable to articulate his experiences to others because he said many of the people that tried to study under him did not have the 'wisdom' to understand deep meditation.

Some of his claims:

  • There is a Big-Self, which is the entire universe, but there is no small self. Religious people personalize this. He says, "Electricity. You can’t see it, you can’t touch it, right? But it’s all over the place, actually, with energy. The source of energy is actually one thing. Everything from that system is one thing. It should be that the big Self, that we all have this. Part of it can come out and generate this, another part of it could come out and give you this."
  • He scoffs at the Mahayana crowd, saying that if they cannot even do basic meditation to become an Arahant, how can they understand the texts of Mahayana? He claims that the Mahayana texts are only understandable experientially after the fruit of an Arahant.
  • He rejects that you can 'suppress' into samadhi, but instead have to let go into samadhi. He says, "Even to say, oh, I have a method, I’m able to stop my thoughts. You know what, that’s actually a big thought, back of this stopping the thought. That’s exactly the pre-thought. It’s a big one, getting rid of the others only."
  • The thought sense encompasses both conscious and subconscious mind, which is responsible for dreams.
  • The brain is not involved in consciousness.
  • He described his own experience of dibba-sota as being able to hear one's heartbeat, the sounds of the Milky Way, the sounds of the Earth rotating, and even far beyond.
  • He advocates the four jhanas, as well as the OBE experience.
  • The difference between this is that he says that the piti and sukha that we feel in first jhana is actually the effects of kundalini. I remember that Jhanananda said that there is a fast and slow-mode of kundalini, or something like that. Nan also says the same thing. He says kundalini also gives rise to the hypersensitivity, such as intense itching, bloating, pains, coldness, dampness, heat, shrinking, etc.
  • He says it is all about the mind at the start of meditation, especially the gap between the breaths. Inhalation is birth, exhalation is death. The gap in between is similar to the space between two thoughts. Stopping the thinking mind is the gateway to the jhanas.
  • He states that in the second jhana, there is no "person" there, also claiming that blissful tranquility meant a form of non-duality, and it is a progression into degrees of non-duality up the jhanas.
  • He states that up to the third jhana, it is all the calming of bodily sankhara or samsara. In the fourth jhana, it is more of mental sanskara or sankhara.
  • He claims that anapanasati is a direct route all the way to enlightenment, with the last 4 steps only doeable with a deep absorption state.
  • He claims that when enlightened, one is able to answer, unhindered, any question raised by people - in nearly any field - being able to tap into some kind of insight stream.
  • He says real Buddhism is dying out. He claims that many people are stuck in form especially in the Tantric crowd and that awakening of kundalini all the way to the crown is just the leaving of the form aggregate (up to 2nd/3rd jhana).
  • He is clearly able to see spirits, as he related a story of having to 'shoo' a vengeful fox-spirit from a monastery.
  • He is often seen smiling, which shows his obvious joy. He also happens to have a cane which he sometimes uses for support. This might indicate the 'kinesthetic charism' which causes drowsy movement when out of samadhi.
  • Using scientific equipment, he was shown with zero brain-waves and zero heart-rate when going into samadhi, which supports a post that Jhanananda related about his own experience during OBE.
  • He spent nearly 3 years up on a mountain retreat before his enlightenment.
  • There is a point that GWV may disagree. He says after the 16th step, it is also advised to give up 'giving', which he says is going from the fruit of an Arahant to a mahayana Bodhisattva. I do not know what he means by this, so perhaps he means the same thing and it overlaps?
  • His student talked about having a 'OBE body' composed of subtler and subtler chi until one merges with the universe.

I am trying to find his descriptions of the samadhis beyond 4th jhana, but the evidence seems to be stacking up that this man indeed has the fruit of a contemplative life. Would be interested in what GWV has to say.

Jhanananda

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Re: Nan Huai-Chin
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2017, 04:53:26 PM »
It is regretful that Sam is no longer here to give more insight from the perspective of his qigong practice.

Yes, he is a sad loss for us all.  Thus, we must all keep in mind that which is born must die.

Upon more studying of Nan's texts (including Chinese), I realized that he was also unable to articulate his experiences to others because he said many of the people that tried to study under him did not have the 'wisdom' to understand deep meditation.

I have found this to be true; however, with the advantage of the internet we have a much larger "catchment basin" than in the past; therefore, we here have far more fruitful attainment than in past religious revival movements that were driven by a mystic.

Some of his claims:

There is a Big-Self, which is the entire universe, but there is no small self. Religious people personalize this. He says, "Electricity. You can’t see it, you can’t touch it, right? But it’s all over the place, actually, with energy. The source of energy is actually one thing. Everything from that system is one thing. It should be that the big Self, that we all have this. Part of it can come out and generate this, another part of it could come out and give you this."

I do not have a problem with this part.

He scoffs at the Mahayana crowd, saying that if they cannot even do basic meditation to become an Arahant, how can they understand the texts of Mahayana? He claims that the Mahayana texts are only understandable experientially after the fruit of an Arahant

I agree here as well.

He rejects that you can 'suppress' into samadhi, but instead have to let go into samadhi.[/b] He says, "Even to say, oh, I have a method, I’m able to stop my thoughts. You know what, that’s actually a big thought, back of this stopping the thought. That’s exactly the pre-thought. It’s a big one, getting rid of the others only."

I agree here as well.

The thought sense encompasses both conscious and subconscious mind, which is responsible for dreams.

Here I have to be precise.  Lucid dreams and OOBs are often mistaken for normal dreams, which do not have an active mind present; whereas, in "normal dreams" the mind is active.

The brain is not involved in consciousness.

I agree here, also marginally.  The people who study conscious have it confused with the cognitive process, because they have never stilled their mind.  So, yes, conscious, with a still mind is separate from brain, mind, cognition.

He described his own experience of dibba-sota as being able to hear one's heartbeat, the sounds of the Milky Way, the sounds of the Earth rotating, and even far beyond.conscious

Interesting.  I am not sure if we can attribute the charismatic sounds to the sounds of: the Milky Way, and the of the Earth rotating; however, sounds nice.  Maybe.

He advocates the four jhanas, as well as the OBE experience.

I concur.

The difference between this is that he says that the piti and sukha that we feel in first jhana is actually the effects of kundalini. I remember that Jhanananda said that there is a fast and slow-mode of kundalini, or something like that. Nan also says the same thing. He says kundalini also gives rise to the hypersensitivity, such as intense itching, bloating, pains, coldness, dampness, heat, shrinking, etc.

This seems reasonable.

He says it is all about the mind at the start of meditation, especially the gap between the breaths. Inhalation is birth, exhalation is death. The gap in between is similar to the space between two thoughts. Stopping the thinking mind is the gateway to the jhanas.


He states that in the second jhana, there is no "person" there, also claiming that blissful tranquility meant a form of non-duality, and it is a progression into degrees of non-duality up the jhanas.

I agree.

He states that up to the third jhana, it is all the calming of bodily sankhara or samsara. In the fourth jhana, it is more of mental sanskara or sankhara.

I am OK with this

He claims that anapanasati is a direct route all the way to enlightenment, with the last 4 steps only doeable with a deep absorption state.

I agree

He claims that when enlightened, one is able to answer, unhindered, any question raised by people - in nearly any field - being able to tap into some kind of insight stream.

Well, I disagree here.  The sciences will require training in the sciences.

He says real Buddhism is dying out. He claims that many people are stuck in form especially in the Tantric crowd and that awakening of kundalini all the way to the crown is just the leaving of the form aggregate (up to 2nd/3rd jhana).

I agree.

He is clearly able to see spirits, as he related a story of having to 'shoo' a vengeful fox-spirit from a monastery

Sure.

He is often seen smiling, which shows his obvious joy. He also happens to have a cane which he sometimes uses for support. This might indicate the 'kinesthetic charism' which causes drowsy movement when out of samadhi.

OK.

Using scientific equipment, he was shown with zero brain-waves and zero heart-rate when going into samadhi, which supports a post that Jhanananda related about his own experience during OBE

This I do not agree with.  The point that I have attempted to make is no one has correctly associated brainwaves with deep meditation experiences, because no one has studied them.

He spent nearly 3 years up on a mountain retreat before his enlightenment.

Many deluded people spend a great time in retreat deluding them selves.

There is a point that GWV may disagree. He says after the 16th step, it is also advised to give up 'giving', which he says is going from the fruit of an Arahant to a mahayana Bodhisattva. I do not know what he means by this, so perhaps he means the same thing and it overlaps?

I am not sure what is meant here.  The Suttas discuss 8 stages of samadhi, not 16.

]His student talked about having a 'OBE body' composed of subtler and subtler chi until one merges with the universe.

OK

I am trying to find his descriptions of the samadhis beyond 4th jhana, but the evidence seems to be stacking up that this man indeed has the fruit of a contemplative life. Would be interested in what GWV has to say.

He sounds interesting.  It would be useful meeting Nan Huai-Chin in person; however,
Quote from: wiki
Nan Huai-Chin (simplified Chinese: 南怀瑾; traditional Chinese: 南懷瑾; pinyin: Nán Huáijǐn) (March 18, 1918 – September 29, 2012) was a spiritual teacher of contemporary China. He was the most eminent disciple of the lay Chan Buddhist teacher Yuan Huanxian, and received confirmation of his enlightenment by various masters of the Buddhist traditions.[1] He was considered by many to be the major force in the revival of Chinese Buddhism.[2] While Nan was regarded by many in China as one of the most influential Chan Buddhist teachers, he was little known outside the Chinese cultural sphere.[3] Nan died at the age of 95 on Sept. 29th, 2012 in Suzhou, China.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 04:58:52 PM by Jhanananda »
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bodhimind

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Re: Nan Huai-Chin
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2017, 05:14:57 PM »
I am not sure what is meant here.  The Suttas discuss 8 stages of samadhi, not 16.

I believe he meant the 16 steps of anapanasati in the Anapanasati sutta, as he often references straight from the suttas, starting from "breathing in, know that breath is long"... all the way to observing impermanence, etc. (He claims that the 16 steps of anapanasati brings a person straight through the four jhanas into awakening)

Quote
Interesting.  I am not sure if we can attribute the charismatic sounds to the sounds of: the Milky Way, and the of the Earth rotating; however, sounds nice.  Maybe.

I read a bit on his discussion that it is about turning the 6-senses inwards, so that hearer and the heard merges (a higher level from hearing the various sounds). I am not very sure what he means by that. As to the Milky Way sound, he said he heard it on top of Mount Emei in Sichuan, China. Perhaps the atmosphere is lighter on the mountain?

Quote
He sounds interesting.  It would be useful meeting Nan Huai-Chin in person; however,

Yes, I found that a pity too. However, he verified the supernatural fruits of another person named Sun-Don Lee as written here:

Quote
  In Oct., 1989, Master Lee met with Master Huai-jin Nan in Hong Kong. Upon entering the room, Master Nan pointed to Master Lee in front of everybody and said, “This person has great supernatural powers and will become the patriarch of a religious school.”

I have not investigated this Lee person so far, so I will check out his work to see if it. If it is true, then it seems that Nan Huai Jin seems to have clairvoyance. Another person he named as enlightened was a therapist working in New York (known as a local miracle bone doctor). Unfortunately he does not have any written works as of the moment, so there is no way for critiquing his work.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 05:18:27 PM by bodhimind »

Jhanananda

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Re: Nan Huai-Chin
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2017, 04:31:01 PM »
I believe he meant the 16 steps of anapanasati in the Anapanasati sutta, as he often references straight from the suttas, starting from "breathing in, know that breath is long"... all the way to observing impermanence, etc. (He claims that the 16 steps of anapanasati brings a person straight through the four jhanas into awakening)

Oh, OK.

I am a bit curious how a Chinese Buddhist priest became aware of the Pali Canon, and its use of the term 'jhana,' and the sati suttas?
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bodhimind

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Re: Nan Huai-Chin
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2017, 05:36:52 AM »
Oh, OK.

I am a bit curious how a Chinese Buddhist priest became aware of the Pali Canon, and its use of the term 'jhana,' and the sati suttas?

According to texts, he got his enlightenment prior to reading the suttas during the retreat, then only verified his experience against the pali canon, various yoga texts (yogacarabhumi shastra), Taoist texts, etc.

I believe they have chinese translations of the texts (called Agamas) which are equivalent to the Nikayas. Unfortunately they are not translated back to English so that we can have a comparison between the two versions. They do however, have one called the Madhyama-Agamas, which corresponds to the Majjhima Nikayas.

I read an article where he was heavily criticizing all the 'wannabe priests' that have gone into deviant paths trying to do Mahayana or Zen without studying an inkling on the original agamas and suttas, because they thought 'mahayana was bigger'. He heavily advocates practicing according to the suttas as the most direct route, but he can also be seen advocating 'emptiness meditation' (with jhana entry) or 'stream-entry by ear' or 'foulness meditation' (contemplation on body).

He quoted the Maha-saccaka sutta, saying that both body and mind had to be developed, and he also talked about the 'dark night of the soul' being once of the 'body sankhara' and another for the 'mental sankhara' (that was how I interpreted it, I may be wrong). That's his argument against the pure 'dry insight' people, or the pure 'tantric/body-work' people. However, while he has quite a few supporters, there are still quite a bunch who are against what he teaches, basically because he is known to be quite controversial in interpreting the sutras (or 'unorthodox' in those people's words).

As to the word 'jhana', in Chinese, they pronounce it as "Chan-Na" or "Chan" for short. But the Chinese-to-English translators like to translate it as 'dhyana', which you pointed out meant something completely different. Also, a different scholar pointed out that "Chan" has distorted its surface-meaning from meaning purely 'jhana' to the word 'meditation' over the years.

I've not seen any other Chinese Buddhist interpret the texts like he does, because he acknowledges the "dark night" as all the various phenomena arising in body (he describes all the various body sensations here, including the feeling of a liquid descending from the crown, coating the body. I remember that GWV differs in opinion from him, as he says these bodily reactions come from the movement of kundalini/yang qi.). Also, he acknowledges the "dark night" of the mind around the third jhana (I will post an update if I chance upon any of his texts as I cannot remember where I've read it).

« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 05:41:53 AM by bodhimind »

Jhanananda

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Re: Nan Huai-Chin
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2017, 10:00:48 PM »
It sounds like he is the real deal, and the only Buddhist monk whom I have read of that has not completely corrupted the Buddha's teachings.
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