The astral body condition and OOBE visitors

[Rodan]

Good to hear from you again, Rodan. I find whenever I remember to meditate during the sleep cycle, I always have a profound experience.  Otherwise, I fouond once one has arrived at lucid dreaming meditation techniques are of no use, because one has gone beyond them.  So, when I sleep at night I leave the body and don't come back to it until it is time to rise in the morning.  At that point I meditate.  And, when I say I meditate I don't mean that I am doing a cognitive meditation technique.  I just observe the breath until the mind stills, then I allow the stages of samadhi to unfold naturaly.

Hi again Jhanananda, I gave that a try right before bed. I meditated till my mind was relatively still, as close to the condition of my sits as possible without falling asleep. It went quite well. I was able to recover my realistic dreams; the ones that I relied on all day awareness noting to reach. I also maintained my consciousness pretty early into sleep based on the early recall of the dreams as per the last few days. So the breath awareness throughout the day is amazing. I also had another precog dream as well. I've been feeling quite dissociated lately as well but in a good way. I feel like something is emanating from my head but not really. I have also felt strange sensations that I used to have occassionally before the onset of my OOBE's; there are times while meditating or while engaging in breath awareness where in it feels like I have an extra limb somewhere. I am laying in bed breathing with my arms to the side but it almost feels as if I have either a phantom limb in-front of my chest or as if I have phantom limbs holding on to something. These aren't very strong feelings btw, it's just a faint feeling of phantom limb syndrome.

[Rodan]

Also I've just discovered the work of Jurge Ziewe; He fell under my radar but he's been performing OOBE's for decades but his experiences with it came about incidentally through his 4-5 hours of meditation a day. He reminded me of you, Jhanananda, when I read parts of his biography and a couple of his books. He might be the only publisher in the field of OOBE literature who talks about it through the lens of meditation. He mentions he never tries to reach it but simply lets go in his sessions and it happens to him, especially while asleep, like you.

I wonder now about many of the OOBE writers. Many of their techniques involve some form of hypnotic trance induction that could be likened to meditation but I can't imagine it working unless one spent hours which would amount to meditating at that point. Then again, there may be some people who are just naturally talented and can leave their body naturally like Robert monroe and others. I enjoyed monroe's tapes but until I began meditating, I didn't really have much success. Same with robert bruces publications, though he does have meditation exercises listed in his books.

[Jhanananda]

I too found what appears to be
phantom limbs when I meditate to the depth of the 4 stage of samadhi.  I found it is a precurser to leaving the body, and is a partial OOBE.

Thanks for sharing the other authors on the OOBE.  It is odd, since this work has been on the web for aboout 20 years that none of these people have made it here.  Perhaps they are not web-savvy.

I do see the semblance of meditation practice, and the charisms expressed in the various other OOBE authors, butno real cohesive understanding of how it all fits together into the 8 stages of samadhi.  Mostly what I see in the OOBE literature is exploration of the lower astral planes.

You are making excellent progress.

[Rodan]

Thank you for the compliments and encouragement Jhanananda! I do wonder though, how much of these OOBE texts help people. Many seem to find it works for them but I am skeptical as astral projection is considered a pretty significant siddhi so the idea of someone attaining a consistent out of body state through these small hypnotic rituals feels dubious. Though I am not opposed to the idea that some of these people are naturals. Talented people in all sorts of academic, athletic and spiritual domains do exist. But it's bizarre for me to hear of tens of thousands of people (numbers based off reddit and other forums) who supposedly can lucid dream or astral project consistently without any sort of meditative regimen besides laying still in bed. I am a particularly thin person and if I were to go around telling people I were an active bodybuilder, I would receive some odd looks. That's my general sentiment when I hear of people who don't live a life of mysticism talk about consistently APing.

[Jhanananda]

I completely agree with you, Rodan, and suspect that most of the people who claim to be traveling out of body are most likely engaging in mental projection, or fantasy, not genuininely leaving the body, especially when most of them don't practice meditation, and have no demonstrated understanding of meditation practice and the other 8 stages of samadhi. On the other hand most people who have OOBEs have one in a life time, and it is often due to the influence of an injury or influenza.

[Rodan]

I sometimes wonder if I'm living different lives at times in other dimensions. A lot of my dreams have similar themes or settings and or people. I sometimes get reoccurring dreams of myself being on some team or other and or being trained for some purpose. Often I will feel as if I've always known these people. I can't tell if these are real feelings or feelings of delirium but in periods of delirium I've always fallen towards not remembering someone.

I will attempt something before bed, I will see if I can keep meditating but not fall asleep until I hit jhana. I think I should be able to become lucid or get closer to it if I fall asleep under the influence of jhana.

[Jhanananda]

I sometimes wonder if I'm living different lives at times in other dimensions. A lot of my dreams have similar themes or settings and or people. I sometimes get reoccurring dreams of myself being on some team or other and or being trained for some purpose. Often I will feel as if I've always known these people. I can't tell if these are real feelings or feelings of delirium but in periods of delirium I've always fallen towards not remembering someone.

There are an infinite number of dimensions, just don't get caught up in them all.

I will attempt something before bed, I will see if I can keep meditating but not fall asleep until I hit jhana. I think I should be able to become lucid or get closer to it if I fall asleep under the influence of jhana.

This is good practice.  Every night when I lay the body down for rest I always start with meditating lying down, into depth, then I travel out of body until the body wakes up in the morning.

[Rodan]

I sometimes wonder if I'm living different lives at times in other dimensions. A lot of my dreams have similar themes or settings and or people. I sometimes get reoccurring dreams of myself being on some team or other and or being trained for some purpose. Often I will feel as if I've always known these people. I can't tell if these are real feelings or feelings of delirium but in periods of delirium I've always fallen towards not remembering someone.

There are an infinite number of dimensions, just don't get caught up in them all.

I will attempt something before bed, I will see if I can keep meditating but not fall asleep until I hit jhana. I think I should be able to become lucid or get closer to it if I fall asleep under the influence of jhana.

This is good practice.  Every night when I lay the body down for rest I always start with meditating lying down, into depth, then I travel out of body until the body wakes up in the morning.

I'm getting better at drawing out jhana so I might be able to do this soon. Is it a requirement that one must reach the 5th jhana to have an OOBE while asleep or is any of them enough given the level of awareness one can draw themselves into?

I have been having odd dreams. I worked as a research grad student years ago and one particular project always annoyed me and I've barely thought about it since; however I've had regular dreams now of myself back in that lab working on that project attempting to solve it as if it were giving me the solution. Quite interesting. I've heard of studies where the subconscious solves problems while the person rests, I wonder if this dream shows a dimensionality to that process?

I was also thinking about what you said regarding the temporal dimensions of OOBE's and dreams. Is there a reason that dream recall should be so initially difficult? If you experience something in this moment. a minute or even an hour later, it should not be so easily forgotten or feel like fragile in the mind.  If we were to take dreams as hallucinations they still should not be so delicate. However, their place as an event discontinuous with our sense of time would create these disordered fragments of memory. The dream event happening out of time would give it a feeling as if it occurred for only a split second and yet something that could also have occurred 2000 years ago or a million years ago.

[Jhanananda]

I'm getting better at drawing out jhana so I might be able to do this soon. Is it a requirement that one must reach the 5th jhana to have an OOBE while asleep or is any of them enough given the level of awareness one can draw themselves into?

The definition of the 5th jhana clearly shows it is the beginning of 4 stages of OOBEs, which are not defined in the suttas as 'jhana' but 'ayatana.' So regardless of how one gets to the OOBE we should consider it the 5th stages of samadhi.  Which implies that when we become skilled at the 4 jhanas we are likely to at least begin to experience the 4 stages of the OOBE (ayatana).

I have been having odd dreams. I worked as a research grad student years ago and one particular project always annoyed me and I've barely thought about it since; however I've had regular dreams now of myself back in that lab working on that project attempting to solve it as if it were giving me the solution. Quite interesting. I've heard of studies where the subconscious solves problems while the person rests, I wonder if this dream shows a dimensionality to that process?

I too worked in research for about 5 years, and yes, I would agree with you we tend to work out our problems in the sleep state, whether we are research scientists, or farmers.

I was also thinking about what you said regarding the temporal dimensions of OOBE's and dreams. Is there a reason that dream recall should be so initially difficult? If you experience something in this moment. a minute or even an hour later, it should not be so easily forgotten or feel like fragile in the mind.  If we were to take dreams as hallucinations they still should not be so delicate. However, their place as an event discontinuous with our sense of time would create these disordered fragments of memory. The dream event happening out of time would give it a feeling as if it occurred for only a split second and yet something that could also have occurred 2000 years ago or a million years ago.

My explanation for why we often to not recall our dreams, or lifetimes, is most people are not contemplatives, and even if they are most people who meditate never move beyond the surface mind.  However, when we begin to meditate deeply is when we begin to move beyond the suface mind, and move into what was the subconscious.  At that point we begin to become more lucid in the sleep state and begin to recall more and more of our dreams.

[Rodan]

Seeing stronger progress recently. I'm beginning to remember more elaborate details about my life in my dreams, including my address or other things in my life. I've also begun to start waking up directly in dreams before waking up in the "real world"

Noticing something interesting with some of the spirits I've been encountering as well. Sometimes it appears that they will fly towards my head, as if they were entering it and it feels as if I have a breeze passing through or around my head.

[Jhanananda]

Interesting. It sounds like it is worth monitoring this phenomena.

[Rodan]

I must thank you again Jhanananda, for giving me the all day breath awareness technique. It's been steadily increasing my lucids. Normally I get about 1 lucid dream a month. since taking up the breath awareness, I've started having more false awakening dreams. In the last several days, I've had 3 lucid dreams and several false awakenings and it's not even halfway through the month.

[Jhanananda]

You are welcome, Rodan, attending to the breath throughout the day has an advantage in keeping the mind in the present moment, so that is another skill to be aware of, because keeping the mind in the present moment helps in stilling the mind when we meditate, because when the mind is busy it is often obsessing over the past or future. Whereas, when the mind is present it is often still.

[Rodan]

I'm still having about 2-3 lucid dreams a month. Though i'm noticing they tend to happen when I sleep well in that week. It seems like my poor sleep hygiene is affecting my ability to gain lucids.

I also wonder if the difficulty in leaving my body at times could be due to the fact that I'm lucid dreaming during those periods. Is it possible to exit my dream body to astral project? If not it could be the case that while I'm in my bed I could have been dreaming, which might be the case; at times my room is completely different or I'll see entities in my periphery. Though at other moments when i'm in my real room I hear the loud shrieking again when I attempt to exit and a blockage that only allows part of me to exit.

I think a solution to the above problem might be to try to meditate or imagine myself floating if I have trouble mechanically exiting. I don't know if I should be waiting for my access to the 4th jhana before I attempt these, it seems like a somewhat still mind and carrying the nimitta of jhana with me to bed are enough.

[Jhanananda]

I'm still having about 2-3 lucid dreams a month. Though i'm noticing they tend to happen when I sleep well in that week. It seems like my poor sleep hygiene is affecting my ability to gain lucids.

This is reasonable. A contemplative who wishes to acquire the superior fruit of the contemplative life (maha-phala) should be leading a restrained life, which includes early to bed and early to rise.

I also wonder if the difficulty in leaving my body at times could be due to the fact that I'm lucid dreaming during those periods. Is it possible to exit my dream body to astral project? If not it could be the case that while I'm in my bed I could have been dreaming, which might be the case; at times my room is completely different or I'll see entities in my periphery. Though at other moments when i'm in my real room I hear the loud shrieking again when I attempt to exit and a blockage that only allows part of me to exit. 

In my experience I often go OOBE from a lucid dream.  Lucidity in the dream state is a function of self-awareness, so when one's self-awareness rises to the point of realizing one is lucid in the dream state is when one can simply fly out of the dream delusion into a higher dimension.

I think a solution to the above problem might be to try to meditate or imagine myself floating if I have trouble mechanically exiting. 

Correct

I don't know if I should be waiting for my access to the 4th jhana before I attempt these, it seems like a somewhat still mind and carrying the nimitta of jhana with me to bed are enough.

No reason to wait, but you will find when you are skilled at consistently meditating to the depth of the 4th jhana is when you are ready to go OOBE which is the 5th stage of samadhi