Awareness after death

[Alexander]

Had this conversation today and was wondering people's thoughts on it. I think this is how it works. Jeff?

How important is the OOBE for life after death, specifically becoming aware and taking back control?
I feel that the thought dimension is actually the real universe and it’s clear that this physical is a product of that space.

But I hope it’s not like dreams where we don’t have a lot of control.

So i wonder is it important to learn how to AP or if you know a few things, you’ll just be aware at the moment of death?

Probably one of the greatest questions. I am speculating but it seems awareness grounds in your ‘lowest’ reality. So while you are here you still exist in those other planes, but those other versions of yourself are ‘asleep.’ So on death when this body is destroyed your awareness grounds in a higher (nonphysical) domain so that one obtains your full awareness.

At the same time it still seems extremely valuable to gain facility with the OOBE. But if you don’t — think of the rest of humanity. That applies to you and 99.9% of people. 😂

I just want to say this exact thought popped into my head last night! That our awareness is “focused” in this reality and our vibration within this dimension is our most dense/lowest vibration, and other aspects of ourselves are “holding space” for when we ascend high enough; since everything is happening all at once and there is only now. I really like your wording, “awareness grounds in your lowest reality”

Correct it’s like there’s a ‘copy’ of you on each level of reality. While you are here you are ‘focused’ on this one. The other copies of you are ‘asleep’ (that’s why we have a low awareness / lack self-consciousness in dreams). OOBEs are in a sense gaining awareness in one of those other ‘copies’ of yourself while retaining your main presence here. That seems to be the way it works (but as I said we’re discussing one of the profoundest questions possible).

[Tad]

Hello Alexander,

I can only share some speculation. Im a little skeptical about the theory of our copies being asleep on each level of reality. What would be the need for such copies to exist? What would the other versions of us be like? What we call self is always changing. There is no permanent element in existance of a being. So who would be asleep in other realms? The only reality is infinity aka the unconditioned aka the true God. Then everything else is illusionary like shadows of the infinity. So in a way everything in all realms is us and at the same time nothing is us cause everything experienced as separation is illusionary. Im more inclined to think that our mind simply travels to realms of experience depending on its qualities.

[Tad]

In addition, based on OOB stories it seems that aftet death of physical body the mind can maintain very good awareness. Probably the major transformation happens during rebirth process. But according to suttas, advanced beings are already aware right after conception.

[Alexander]

I agree Tad that that is the highest self. I believe it is a self that you and I (and all beings share); ie, we are all One. If the tenets of religion are to be taken seriously, it is a divine illusion that prevents us from perceiving this.

Westerners would use positive language and say we are all ultimately ‘God.’ Buddhists would use negative language and say that once one has ‘blown out’ this current, limited I then we experience our true, universal I which is All.

So the argument is there are multiple Is: first, the current, limited I we have now; second, a nonphysical continuation of this I; and third, a supreme, universal I (which all beings share because we are all One).

[Alexander]

So the question was about the level of consciousness experienced by the nonphysical self after death. For example, when we dream we have no agency or self-awareness. The original questioner asked, ‘what if the afterlife was like a dream, with no self-consciousness?’

I think that when we are here the nonphysical copy of ourselves is ‘asleep.’ This would also explain the state we are in when we dream. When we have an OOBE or lucid dream, awareness transfers to that ‘copy.’ Then when we die, primary awareness (presumably) transfers from this copy of ourselves to that one.

[Alexander]

A related question would be memory. We usually forget our dreams / OOBEs. We are also born with a complete forgetfulness of anything that came before when we are born.

You know it’s funny. I often write things on Google docs. I will edit a file on the computer, and then later look at the file on my phone. Sometimes it will take a minute for the information to ‘download.’ Other times there will be a glitch and it will show me an old version of the file without the new things I’ve written. There’s likely a similar principle when transferring memory between the different ‘copies’ of ourselves. As above, so below.

[Alexander]

In regard to ‘copies,’ this was a section I wrote in an article a few years ago. I wonder what others might make of it, but it seems to be correct.

Three Spiritual Bodies
Gurdjieff presented the idea of three spiritual bodies - the astral, mental, and divine - which we can find a corollary with in the idea of the three kayas in Tibetan Buddhism. I have tried to make sense of these over the years - both the Gurdjieff and Tibetan versions - and I have concluded that Gurdjieff's explanation was incomplete and that the Tibetans' suffers from severe issues of translation.
So, this is my best explanation of these.
1. The physical body - where we are now
2. The astral body - represents an out-of-body projection in the "real time zone" (the "RTZ," as Frank Kepple called it), the duplicate version of our current physical plane
3. The mental body - represents an OOB projection in a nonphysical domain
4. The divine body - represents an OOB projection to the Source (formless supreme reality)
This, I think, is the correct understanding of these, and helps to elucidate what they are referring to. In all other cases we would have to assume the explanations are just misunderstandings or mistranslations.

The last of these is what we are referring to when we say ‘God’ or when we say ‘we are all One.’ But the comments about ‘copies,’ the nonphysical self, and memory download, would pertain to the others.

[Jhanananda]

This is a big topic and difficult to explain unless one has facility with the various planes of existence.

First: We are all communicating on the physical plane with  shared experience mediated by the physical body and its senses. For most people who are not rigorous, self-aware contemplatives who have facility with deep mediation, then these people become unconscious when they sleep. Sometimes they recall a dream.  The dream-scape is the lowest levels of the immaterial domains. 

When one first develops sufficient depth in meditation that they begin to travel out of body they leave the body and move on the lowest levels of the immaterial domains. Here they interact with beings who are either dead, or dreaming, so these beings have no self-awareness, and are essentially wondering spirits who are prone to demonic behavior.

People who leave their body and enter this lower domain often report being ganged up on and even chased.  The reason for this is the wandering spirit becomes terrified of the self-aware being.  At this time the self-aware person who is new to being out of body will often become frightened and experience sleep paralysis, and eventually struggle enough to force oneself back to the body.

As one's contemplative life deepens one develops facility in the immaterial domains and learns to move freely in the immaterial domains, so when the wandering spirits and hungry ghosts become full of wrath one simply rises up above the lower domains to higher domains of kinder spirits.

As one deepens in skillful meditation one sheds the layers of identity shedding ego and body and other aspects of self rising to higher domains where there is greater bliss, joy and ecstasy. Eventually one just becomes a point of light, awareness and love. At this point one has become part of the heavenly host, which is a vast, and infinite expanse of points of light, like space full of stars.  And, when one then embraces the wholeness of the heavenly host, then one becomes god, and all of those points of light are the many cells of ones organism.

[Alexander]

This is a big topic and difficult to explain unless one has facility with the various planes of existence.

First: We are all communicating on the physical plane with  shared experience mediated by the physical body and its senses. For most people who are not rigorous, self-aware contemplatives who have facility with deep mediation, then these people become unconscious when they sleep. Sometimes they recall a dream.  The dream-scape is the lowest levels of the immaterial domains. 

When one first develops sufficient depth in meditation that they begin to travel out of body they leave the body and move on the lowest levels of the immaterial domains. Here they interact with beings who are either dead, or dreaming, so these beings have no self-awareness, and are essentially wondering spirits who are prone to demonic behavior.

People who leave their body and enter this lower domain often report being ganged up on and even chased.  The reason for this is the wandering spirit becomes terrified of the self-aware being.  At this time the self-aware person who is new to being out of body will often become frightened and experience sleep paralysis, and eventually struggle enough to force oneself back to the body.

As one's contemplative life deepens one develops facility in the immaterial domains and learns to move freely in the immaterial domains, so when the wandering spirits and hungry ghosts become full of wrath one simply rises up above the lower domains to higher domains of kinder spirits.

As one deepens in skillful meditation one sheds the layers of identity shedding ego and body and other aspects of self rising to higher domains where there is greater bliss, joy and ecstasy. Eventually one just becomes a point of light, awareness and love. At this point one has become part of the heavenly host, which is a vast, and infinite expanse of points of light, like space full of stars.  And, when one then embraces the wholeness of the heavenly host, then one becomes god, and all of those points of light are the many cells of ones organism.

A sublime description, Jeff, and consistent with what I suspected

[Alexander]

It is interesting, the consistency of truth; any sincere seeker - whether Christ, the Buddha, Plato, Dante, or etc - would inevitably come to the same conclusions

[Jhanananda]

Thanks, Alexander, all we need to do is understand who the genuine mystics were and compare their message to any new messenger.

[KriyaYogi]

Hi all, I have about three years of training 2-3 hours daily in OOB from a teacher who specialized in it for 20 years.  I notice that the more intense the OOB got the less I identified with this reality when I came back.  I was able to move to realities that gave me the most satisfaction and fulfillment during my training and I noticed less desires upon returning, more ego dissipation.  I think OOB is very helpful in attaining higher consciousness personally.  -David

[Jhanananda]

David, if you explore this forum more you will find OOBEs are a feature of our discussion here, and the Pali Canon defines them as the upper 4 stages of samadhi.

[KriyaYogi]

Thanks Jeff.  Interestingly I notice in my deepest astral projections, like I just mentioned to Alexander I feel more detached from my body than when just doing simple meditation.  I have not done much projection since 2019 though, perhaps it would be beneficial to start again.   I'll read some more articles.  -David

[Jhanananda]

Thanks Jeff.  Interestingly I notice in my deepest astral projections, like I just mentioned to Alexander I feel more detached from my body than when just doing simple meditation.  I have not done much projection since 2019 though, perhaps it would be beneficial to start again.   I'll read some more articles.  -David

The problem that we frequently deal with here is a belief that the 8 stages of samadhi, which includes the OOBE, are some how a product of a meditation technique, which is not.  The technique just gets us to the doorway.  After that it is all about letting go and allowing samadhi to progress as a natural phenomena, that our ego and cognitive processes have to step back and allow to emerge.

Also, the definition we have for a genuine OOBE is that when one occurs the person experiencing the OOBE has no awareness of the physical body or its location, unless the destination of that OOBE is in the immediate location of the physical body.