Author Topic: The Five Aggregates vs Focusing on Pleasant Sensations  (Read 4173 times)

Michael Hawkins

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The Five Aggregates vs Focusing on Pleasant Sensations
« on: March 02, 2023, 03:20:14 PM »
In my re-introduction thread - http://fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum/index.php/topic,1397.msg10657.html#msg10657 - I mentioned a disagreement with my ex-wife around the Buddha's teachings on meditation.

For me, meditation consists of getting settled onto the cushion, closing my eyes, and focusing on the breath moving in and out of my nose.  Soon, I notice self-arising bliss, joy and ecstasy, at which point I switch my focus from the breath to that.  I am then led into deepening levels of jhana.  Doing this over and over again develops saturation so that meditative absorption accompanies me even when off the cushion.  I'm not concerned with developing so-called "insight," although I find that my mind functions more clearly when I'm well-meditated, so that insights flow easily.

My ex-wife, on the other hand, concluded that what I was doing (and, thus, what is taught here) ignores the Buddha's auxiliary teachings within the 8-fold path.  Specifically, she insisted that meditation should begin with a mental process of "checking in" through the 3 marks of existence (anicca, dukkha and anatta), filtering them in a formal way through the 5 aggregates (matter, consciousness, perception, feeling and volition).  Or, maybe it was the other way around - filtering the 5 aggregates through the 3 marks of existence.

When I tried it her way, I became hopelessly lost in mental gymnastics, and in no way could I access deeper levels of absorption with my mind racing in every direction.  The mental word salad was crazy-making for me.

My sense is that my ex had concluded that meditating through levels of absorption is the "bliss bunny" approach, which misses the wider teachings of the Buddhadhamma.

I would be curious to receive Jeffrey's take, so that I can lay this to rest once and for all.
 

Tad

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Re: The Five Aggregates vs Focusing on Pleasant Sensations
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2023, 05:24:13 AM »
Michael,

When I was reading your return post, I was actually curious to ask about your disagreement with ex-wife but restrained myself  :)

I think Jhananda's position is more than clear enough regarding this topic  :) I am just like you and Jhananda. My mind is very analytical and tends to overthink and cling to stuff. So for me Jhananda's method is the only way to go. I naturally do a lot of contemplation on impermanence, self, suffering, etc.

Sometimes I think that maybe for certain people your ex-wife approach can work to some degree. Some people might need to do more pondering and examination. Maybe their minds are naturally more relaxed and contemplation of dhamma is what they need at the time. The main problem would be is that such practice does not develop samatha quality of the mind. So they can only progress so far..

Like I said I also do find Jhananda's method to be the most straight forward and effective in any situation. Whether I feel good or terrible l can always rely on mindfulness of breath. But for other forms of meditation, they only work when I am in certain mindstates.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2023, 08:09:22 AM by Tad »

Michael Hawkins

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Re: The Five Aggregates vs Focusing on Pleasant Sensations
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2023, 02:02:11 PM »
Michael,

When I was reading your return post, I was actually curious to ask about your disagreement with ex-wife but restrained myself  :)

I think Jhananda's position is more than clear enough regarding this topic  :) I am just like you and Jhananda. My mind is very analytical and tends to overthink and cling to stuff. So for me Jhananda's method is the only way to go. I naturally do a lot of contemplation on impermanence, self, suffering, etc.

Sometimes I think that maybe for certain people your ex-wife approach can work to some degree. Some people might need to do more pondering and examination. Maybe their minds are naturally more relaxed and contemplation of dhamma is what they need at the time. The main problem would be is that such practice does not develop samatha quality of the mind. So they can only progress so far..

Like I said I also do find Jhananda's method to be the most straight forward and effective in any situation. Whether I feel good or terrible l can always rely on mindfulness of breath. But for other forms of meditation, they only work when I am in certain mindstates.
Thanks for the feedback, Tad.

One thing I want to correct, in the name of authenticity, is that I am technically still married, so I should not call her my "ex" wife.  I'm working through the dissolution and need to accept that there are more stages to deal with.  I'll fix my terminology moving forward.

I was pretty sure about what Jhanananda's answer would be, but I still hope he chimes in, just so I have that definitive statement.  I'm happy to know that you were tempted to ask me about this difference in opinion, because it's an example of how I allowed myself to be swayed in the interest of approval-seeking.  That's one of the biggest things I've learned through all of this - if I can't be fully myself, it's time to get out.

Another thing I think about is that I've been very open about the fact that "something" happened during all those thousands of hours of meditation, the steeping into levels of absorption over and over again.  When I tell someone else that I'm always saturated in bliss, joy and ecstasy, there is an inevitable reaction in them.  Some can accept it pretty easily, but in others it triggers a need to "flatten the playing field," to bring the contemplative down.  This is what Jeffrey saw happening more than ten years ago, when he counseled me to get out.

Our concept of skillful meditation makes so much sense to me.  It should not be a mental exercise.  It's should be a letting go, a surrender, a progressive series of releases.  This is how the mind is prepared to do the work that the Buddha laid out around the Noble 8.  There is a place for utilizing the 3 marks and the 5 aggregates (and all the other lists), but not during skillful meditation.  It's not rocket science.

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Re: The Five Aggregates vs Focusing on Pleasant Sensations
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2023, 06:59:54 PM »
Well said both Michael and Tad.

On the bliss bunny debate in Buddhism: Since the 8th fold of the Nobel Eightfold Path is specifically and continuously defined throughout the Pali Canon in terms of bliss, joy and ecstasy, then anyone who rejects that premise is most certainly not following a Noble Eightfold Path, but only a fragment, which leads nowhere.

On refining my technique just last night to my son, is to understand that I am a completely broken person with massive PTSD, so if I even think of the past or future for a moment I am propelled into deep depression, anxiety and suffering.  So, my method has to be 24/7.  So, while yes, I follow the breath until my mind is still, then once my mind is still I just keep it still and in the present moment, and while I am doing that I am observant of any of the well documented charisms we discuss here arise, and when they do they are my new meditation object.  But, we need to recognize when the mind is not still there are no charisms.
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Michael Hawkins

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Re: The Five Aggregates vs Focusing on Pleasant Sensations
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2023, 08:52:09 PM »
Well said both Michael and Tad.

On the bliss bunny debate in Buddhism: Since the 8th fold of the Nobel Eightfold Path is specifically and continuously defined throughout the Pali Canon in terms of bliss, joy and ecstasy, then anyone who rejects that premise is most certainly not following a Noble Eightfold Path, but only a fragment, which leads nowhere.

On refining my technique just last night to my son, is to understand that I am a completely broken person with massive PTSD, so if I even think of the past or future for a moment I am propelled into deep depression, anxiety and suffering.  So, my method has to be 24/7.  So, while yes, I follow the breath until my mind is still, then once my mind is still I just keep it still and in the present moment, and while I am doing that I am observant of any of the well documented charisms we discuss here arise, and when they do they are my new meditation object.  But, we need to recognize when the mind is not still there are no charisms.
I appreciate you commenting on this, Jeffrey.  I'm getting that the Buddha was very detailed in his teachings about meditation, which he always described it in terms of the jhanas, and that he was just as detailed when describing how best to follow the other folds of the Noble 8.  Trying to force the 5 Aggregates and 3 Marks into the 8th fold is a misreading of the Buddhadhamma.

I feel more clear now, thank you again.

Alexander

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Re: The Five Aggregates vs Focusing on Pleasant Sensations
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2023, 09:21:02 AM »
to understand that I am a completely broken person with massive PTSD, so if I even think of the past or future for a moment I am propelled into deep depression, anxiety and suffering.

That has been your path though, as it has been mine. Funny how the universe always finds a way to balance the scales. The mystic said, “one can only rise to the heights of heaven after one has descended into the depths of hell.”

Michael, I don’t want to be impertinent, but I want you to watch this.

https://youtu.be/dAiCjRxWBJQ
https://alexanderlorincz.com/

"I saw all things gathered in one volume by love - what, in the universe, seemed separate, scattered." (Canto 33)

Tad

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Re: The Five Aggregates vs Focusing on Pleasant Sensations
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2023, 10:10:24 AM »
There is a really good sutta pertaining to our discussion here. Basically, we need both types of practice - tranquility and investigating. But the ultimate purpose of all practices is to facilitate letting go (aka unclinging) as it is stated by Buddha in other suttas.


Translation by Thanissaro:

“Monks, these four types of individuals are to be found existing in world. Which four?

“There is the case of the individual who has attained internal tranquility of awareness, but not insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. Then there is the case of the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquility of awareness. Then there is the case of the individual who has attained neither internal tranquility of awareness nor insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. And then there is the case of the individual who has attained both internal tranquility of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.

“The individual who has attained internal tranquility of awareness, but not insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, should approach an individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment and ask him: ‘How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?’ The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: ‘Fabrications should be regarded in this way. Fabrications should be investigated in this way. Fabrications should be seen in this way with insight.’ Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquility of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.

“As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquility of awareness, he should approach an individual who has attained internal tranquility of awareness… and ask him, ‘How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated?’ The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: ‘The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way.’ Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquility of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.

“As for the individual who has attained neither internal tranquility of awareness nor insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, he should approach an individual who has attained both internal tranquility of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment…and ask him, ‘How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated? How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?’ The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: ‘The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way. Fabrications should be regarded in this way. Fabrications should be investigated in this way. Fabrications should be seen in this way with insight.’ Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquility of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.

“As for the individual who has attained both internal tranquility of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, his duty is to make an effort in establishing (‘tuning’) those very same skillful qualities to a higher degree for the ending of the (mental) effluents.

“These are four types of individuals to be found existing in world.”

—AN 4:94

Alexander

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Re: The Five Aggregates vs Focusing on Pleasant Sensations
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2023, 10:39:42 AM »
There is a really good sutta pertaining to our discussion here. Basically, we need both types of practice - tranquility and investigating. But the ultimate purpose of all practices is to facilitate letting go (aka unclinging) as it is stated by Buddha in other suttas.

(…)

It reminds me of Gurdjieff, who said the spiritual life was the quest for knowledge and being.
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"I saw all things gathered in one volume by love - what, in the universe, seemed separate, scattered." (Canto 33)

Michael Hawkins

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Re: The Five Aggregates vs Focusing on Pleasant Sensations
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2023, 01:31:39 PM »
to understand that I am a completely broken person with massive PTSD, so if I even think of the past or future for a moment I am propelled into deep depression, anxiety and suffering.

That has been your path though, as it has been mine. Funny how the universe always finds a way to balance the scales. The mystic said, “one can only rise to the heights of heaven after one has descended into the depths of hell.”

Michael, I don’t want to be impertinent, but I want you to watch this.

https://youtu.be/dAiCjRxWBJQ
Thanks for the video, Alexander.  I took notes throughout, pausing, reversing, like I was getting ready for a test at the end, lol.

Really excellent service the creators are providing with this series on the Divine Comedy.  I have several translations that I dip into from time to time, but having a canto in synopsis like this is very helpful.

So, we are in Purgatory on the level of the sin of Pride (and Arrogance).  You are very perceptive, my friend.  At the very beginning of my Fall (also depicted in this canto - the fall of Lucifer and many others), I knew that my arrogant self-image was crashing down.  The scene of the hero general begging for money to free a friend in the king's prison, the humiliation he felt (and that he prophesied would afflict Dante some day) - such an accurate image of how I often felt, having withdrawn from society in utter shame. The prideful carrying stones on their backs, crumpled into "an intensely uncomfortable position" - reminds me of a couple episodes where I had a slipped disc in my neck, which kept me awake, pacing and moaning and crying for days and nights at a time (I'm actually going through that again right now, over the past couple months).  To realize that the heavy weight symbolizes pride and arrogance is a powerful insight.  Apparently the rock on my back is still there.

And then the Angel of Humility approaches, robed in white.  Its wing brushes against Dante's forehead, removing one of the 7 P's (sins).  The angel tells them that the steps up the mountain are nearby, and that the climb will be much easier.  So, the message is, do the Purgatory time to reflect and understand pride and its effects, then lay down the burden before rejoining the upward path.

The thing about the Comedy that always gets me is the self-honesty that Dante expresses, showing that he himself is afflicted with whatever sin he happens to be examining.  This makes the message universal and authentic.  It reminds me of how our Jhanananda is so willing to expose his frailties and wounds, which connects our plight with his.

Genuine humility is not a concept that can be worn like a garment.  It's something that happens through life experience that wears down our pride and arrogance.  This canto shows that Dante thought he could equal or even surpass God in terms of creating divine art.  We want to go straight to "being God" without passing through the necessary realizations, and it just doesn't work that way.  Our delusions must be exposed and dealt with, one way or another.

I'm thinking of the original purpose of this thread, and how it connects with this issue of pride vs. humility.  The 8th fold describes skillful meditation in terms of bliss, joy and ecstasy, the idea being that frequent exposure to deeper levels of absorption helps to dissolve the fetters that bind us to the wheel of existence.  The 5 Aggregates and the 3 Marks of Existence are helpful for self-reflection around where we are at a given point along the path - what we are feeling and experiencing, or in Dante's symbolism, which P we are working with.  As you've so perceptively detected, pride was the big boulder on my back when I crashed and burned, leading to complete withdrawal from friends, loved ones and support structures like the GWV.  I've been on the level of Purgatory described by Dante in this canto... and perhaps now I'm ready to get back to climbing the mountain.  Which means, re-engaging the practice that dissolves fetters.

I hope this all makes sense.  I very much appreciate everyone's participation as I work this out for myself.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2023, 01:38:31 PM by Michael Hawkins »

Michael Hawkins

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Re: The Five Aggregates vs Focusing on Pleasant Sensations
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2023, 01:50:07 PM »
There is a really good sutta pertaining to our discussion here. Basically, we need both types of practice - tranquility and investigating. But the ultimate purpose of all practices is to facilitate letting go (aka unclinging) as it is stated by Buddha in other suttas.


Translation by Thanissaro:

“Monks, these four types of individuals are to be found existing in world. Which four?

“There is the case of the individual who has attained internal tranquility of awareness, but not insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. Then there is the case of the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquility of awareness. Then there is the case of the individual who has attained neither internal tranquility of awareness nor insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. And then there is the case of the individual who has attained both internal tranquility of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.

“The individual who has attained internal tranquility of awareness, but not insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, should approach an individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment and ask him: ‘How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?’ The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: ‘Fabrications should be regarded in this way. Fabrications should be investigated in this way. Fabrications should be seen in this way with insight.’ Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquility of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.

“As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquility of awareness, he should approach an individual who has attained internal tranquility of awareness… and ask him, ‘How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated?’ The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: ‘The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way.’ Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquility of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.

“As for the individual who has attained neither internal tranquility of awareness nor insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, he should approach an individual who has attained both internal tranquility of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment…and ask him, ‘How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated? How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?’ The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: ‘The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way. Fabrications should be regarded in this way. Fabrications should be investigated in this way. Fabrications should be seen in this way with insight.’ Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquility of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.

“As for the individual who has attained both internal tranquility of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, his duty is to make an effort in establishing (‘tuning’) those very same skillful qualities to a higher degree for the ending of the (mental) effluents.

“These are four types of individuals to be found existing in world.”

—AN 4:94
Thanks for this, Tad.  It's fortunate that this forum exists to help with investigation.  We can "approach an individual" who has already covered something that we haven't, and benefit from that individual's wisdom and insights.

And I agree, investigation is necessary in order to continue the journey.

Alexander

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Re: The Five Aggregates vs Focusing on Pleasant Sensations
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2023, 02:08:41 PM »
Thanks for the video, Alexander. (…)

Oh, am I happy with you. The mountain will be a joke to you. ;D

https://alexanderlorincz.com/

"I saw all things gathered in one volume by love - what, in the universe, seemed separate, scattered." (Canto 33)

Michael Hawkins

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Re: The Five Aggregates vs Focusing on Pleasant Sensations
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2023, 02:17:28 PM »
Thanks for the video, Alexander. (…)

Oh, am I happy with you. The mountain will be a joke to you. ;D
I love a good joke!  8)

Jhanananda

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Re: The Five Aggregates vs Focusing on Pleasant Sensations
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2023, 03:26:18 PM »
I appreciate you commenting on this, Jeffrey.  I'm getting that the Buddha was very detailed in his teachings about meditation, which he always described it in terms of the jhanas, and that he was just as detailed when describing how best to follow the other folds of the Noble 8.  Trying to force the 5 Aggregates and 3 Marks into the 8th fold is a misreading of the Buddhadhamma.

I feel more clear now, thank you again.

I completely agree.
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Jhanananda

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Re: The Five Aggregates vs Focusing on Pleasant Sensations
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2023, 03:41:28 PM »
Thanks, Tad, for the quote, but we should keep in mind that none of the translators of suttas have demonstrated an understanding of the 8th fold of the Noble Eightfold Path, and certainly not Thanissaro. So, we have to keep in mind that his terms: 'tranquility' and 'insight' are most likely translations for 'jhana' and 'panna'.  I am reminded of another sutta, which I don't have a source for states something like: "There is no insight (or wisdom) without jhana." So, we have to keep in mind translator bias
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Re: The Five Aggregates vs Focusing on Pleasant Sensations
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2023, 08:46:49 AM »
Happy to have you hear Michael Hawkins!  I confess I am at a loss, I don't know Dante or the Suttas, my expertise lies in Kali worship, soul travel, energy healing and breathwork but it's nice to read through all of your educated writeups!  -David