Questions about OOBEs

[Jhanananda]

Thank you 🙏 , again, for the very amazing responses. 

You are welcome. I hope that my responses inspire people to take up a rigorous, self-aware contemplative life in which they begin and end every day with at least 1 hour of deep meditation per session.

[Tad]

Jhanananda,

How much power do planetary gods have? What is your opinion about worshipping gods? Does worshipping produce any positive energy that can help beings?

Regarding miracles in the Bible, I think they kind of resemble miracles found in Pali. For example, the sutta whera a monk changes weather through psychic power.

[Jhanananda]

Jhanananda,

How much power do planetary gods have? What is your opinion about worshipping gods? Does worshipping produce any positive energy that can help beings?

Regarding miracles in the Bible, I think they kind of resemble miracles found in Pali. For example, the sutta whera a monk changes weather through psychic power.

Thank you, Tad, for posting your interesting questions. I see no value in worshiping gods, as they have no control over the material world. Nor do I consider miracles anything more than propaganda. Instead, I recommend following the whole of the Noble Eightfold path, which includes beginning and ending every day with hour-long meditation sessions that result in the depths associated with the 8 stages of samma-samadhi.

[Alexander]

So have you found Shiva, Vishnu, Ganesha, etc to exist in the spirit world?

[Jhanananda]

So have you found Shiva, Vishnu, Ganesha, etc to exist in the spirit world?

These are more mythical beings. If you compare the iconography associated with Gilgamesh to Shiva there is a clear close association between these two ancient personalities. Ganesh is clearly a cartoon character. Vishnu might be an attempt to express the concept of a planetary deity that periodically takes birth as a messiah figure.

[Alexander]

These are more mythical beings. If you compare the iconography associated with Gilgamesh to Shiva there is a clear close association between these two ancient personalities. Ganesh is clearly a cartoon character. Vishnu might be an attempt to express the concept of a planetary deity that periodically takes birth as a messiah figure.

Interesting, can you unpack this more? As I always wondered if the gods of myth were discovered via intuitive mysticism — ie they do actually exist even if they can’t interact with us — or if they were products of human imagination.

So:

1 If we are “devoted” to any spiritual masters, would you say we are better off with those who actually lived on Earth, ie, Christ, John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, and the Buddha?

2 So to confirm, after 50 years of OOBEs you’ve found Ganesh and Vishnu to be fictional? (A shame.)

3 And you’ve found Shiva may be a corruption of a mythological figure? Any encounters with Kali?

[Jhanananda]

Interesting, can you unpack this more? As I always wondered if the gods of myth were discovered via intuitive mysticism — ie they do actually exist even if they can’t interact with us — or if they were products of human imagination.

So:

1 If we are “devoted” to any spiritual masters, would you say we are better off with those who actually lived on Earth, ie, Christ, John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, and the Buddha?

I don't really see any value in devotion to a past master, or mythical being being particularly useful, when a daily meditation practice that results in experience of depth such as a still mind. And, regarding the mythic figures, I see that more an example of priest-craft.

2 So to confirm, after 50 years of OOBEs you’ve found Ganesh and Vishnu to be fictional? (A shame.)

Yes

3 And you’ve found Shiva may be a corruption of a mythological figure? Any encounters with Kali?

Yes, I have encountered Shiva and Kali, and many other past masters. I have also studied ancient religious literature and find some interesting linguistic connections between religions, for instance, Shakti is a female consort to Shiva, who represents the phenomena that is associated with the religious experience. In Judaism there are references to 'shakina' which is feminine and referred to as the experience of god; so both terms are too much alike to not have a linguistic connection.

[Alexander]

Thank you, very interesting responses again.

1 So previously you said the beings in the "lower heavens" are subject to delusion, can you unpack what delusions they have? Is one of these delusions that they get "locked" into a certain "loka" in the spirit world due to belief?

2 If so- would they be able to go to other heavens (similar to a human in an OOBE) if they understood their true nature as spirit?

3 When you said it's best to go to the higher formless heavens- it is a recurring theme. Actually, it makes me think of this icon of the different order of angel- https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Nine_orders_of_angels.jpeg My question here is it a matter of "why settle for a lower good when higher goods are available"?

[Jhanananda]

Thank you, very interesting responses again.

1 So previously you said the beings in the "lower heavens" are subject to delusion, can you unpack what delusions they have? Is one of these delusions that they get "locked" into a certain "loka" in the spirit world due to belief?

You are welcome, the delusions are based upon separateness, which we understand as identity. Identity has many layers, and as we move to higher domains we shed the layers of identity. For instance human identity is bound up in our physical human body, but we shed that when we travel out-of-body; however, the lower astral domains are occupied by beings who still believe they have a body.

2 If so- would they be able to go to other heavens (similar to a human in an OOBE) if they understood their true nature as spirit?

as we shed our sense of identity we can move to higher domains.

3 When you said it's best to go to the higher formless heavens- it is a recurring theme. Actually, it makes me think of this icon of the different order of angel- https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Nine_orders_of_angels.jpeg My question here is it a matter of "why settle for a lower good when higher goods are available"?

The image seems to be bound up in the sense of human identity and thus only represents the lower astral domains.

[Tad]

What do you think about Buddhist teachings that some gods from heavenly realms are hoping to be reborn as humans so they could have better opportunity to practice dhamma?

Also what about Pali Canon verses about heavenly beings having very long life span but not being eternal and subject to rebirth?

[Alexander]

These are great dialogues, thank you. I have many more questions. It seems easier to ask them a few at a time.

1 Have you found any insight into the average delay between lives? I remember you mentioned being a Holocaust victim, a Native American from the southwest (who was a lover), and a Tang dynasty monk. William Buhlman mentioned once being a German WWII era tank commander.

2 Do we learn anything from our former lives? Or is it a tabula rasa each time?

3 Any insight into what compels reincarnation? Is it choice? Craving?

4 Do we select our parents? Is Plato right in saying the wise choose wiser births? How do we acquire that knowledge pre-birth?

[Jhanananda]

What do you think about Buddhist teachings that some gods from heavenly realms are hoping to be reborn as humans so they could have better opportunity to practice dhamma?

Also what about Pali Canon verses about heavenly beings having very long life span but not being eternal and subject to rebirth?

These are good questions, which I cannot answer, but keep in mind that there is evidence of apocrypha in the Pali Canon.

[Jhanananda]

These are great dialogues, thank you. I have many more questions. It seems easier to ask them a few at a time.

1 Have you found any insight into the average delay between lives? I remember you mentioned being a Holocaust victim, a Native American from the southwest (who was a lover), and a Tang dynasty monk. William Buhlman mentioned once being a German WWII era tank commander.

Thank you. This is a good question. I don't really know if we can predict the time in between births or explain it.

2 Do we learn anything from our former lives? Or is it a tabula rasa each time?

One would hope we learn from our birth cycles, but I wouldn't think someone who is not a contemplative would learn anything from lifetime to lifetime. They just go on repeating the same cycles.

3 Any insight into what compels reincarnation? Is it choice? Craving?

Yes, people are driven by craving and covetousness, so giving up craving and covetousness is the solution, which requires taking up a contemplative life, which is reasonably described by the Noble Eightfold Path.

4 Do we select our parents? Is Plato right in saying the wise choose wiser births? How do we acquire that knowledge pre-birth?

Yes, probably, but remember for most people their cycle of births is driven by craving; whereas, a mystic returns for the benefit of others.

[Alexander]

Got it. Thank you .

A few more:

1 There is a book on OOBEs, one of the oldest written, by Carrington and Muldoon, that states there is a “silver cord” that connects the spirit back to body (if it astral projects). I think I have also seen something like this in Hindu art before. Is there such a cord?

2 You responded to the Orthodox icon of the different tiers of angel with: “The image seems to be bound up in the sense of human identity and thus only represents the lower astral domains.”

Interesting! As the higher images are trying to portray a formless angel. So how might a human imagine that state? How might an artist depict it?

3 Occult literature makes references to a place called the “akashic records,” a huge library which contains a record of every experience, thought, emotion, etc from history. Have you ever visited such a place? I would think that would be an amazing place to go to in the spirit world.

[Jhanananda]

Got it. Thank you .

A few more:

1 There is a book on OOBEs, one of the oldest written, by Carrington and Muldoon, that states there is a “silver cord” that connects the spirit back to body (if it astral projects). I think I have also seen something like this in Hindu art before. Is there such a cord?

I had been traveling Out-of-Body for about a year before I read about the "silver cord." In 50 years of nightly OOBEs I have never seen a silver cord connecting my astral body to my physical body, so I reject the idea as one of the countless delusions that characterize lower astral experiences. The thing most astral "experts" don't get is the astral plane is a pane of delusion, where you see what you want to see.

2 You responded to the Orthodox icon of the different tiers of angel with: “The image seems to be bound up in the sense of human identity and thus only represents the lower astral domains.”

Interesting! As the higher images are trying to portray a formless angel. So how might a human imagine that state? How might an artist depict it?

One has to realize that artistic expression may not represent reality, but an attempt to express the formless domains in pictorial representation.

3 Occult literature makes references to a place called the “akashic records,” a huge library which contains a record of every experience, thought, emotion, etc from history. Have you ever visited such a place? I would think that would be an amazing place to go to in the spirit world.

The akashic records is a metaphor. There is no library, other than as a projection; however, while Out-of-Body we can certainly revisit the past no matter how distant in the past.